OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Okay so I let someone (names won't be mentioned here because it's rude) read my story to give me a review just for kicks and here's what they said!

That hurt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif but now that you've seen someone else bring up those points is there anything about them that is true, I figure you guys will be a lot more constructive about it then he was and it may help me out because as it stands I kind of lost the whole zeal and excitement about writing a book in the near future because I read my stories again and am worried that he's right.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Neh. I can spot alot of influences in the Icarans, but it is no carbon copy. There's always going to be some deliberate or unintended parallels and similarities as its damn hard to be totally new.
Bollocks. Loads of engineers and scientists are god botherers so ignore this point.
So he doesn't like the name. Meh.
It seems pretty straightfowards: There xenos so you can kill 'em as they're not people. I do admit the wars on other human empires do need fixing a bit as the approach is inconsistent.
I've gotta agree with him here. I did just skim that bit and wouldn't recommened you do it again. There are better ways of getting human interest in there. It was slightly cheesy sorry.
Again he does have a point, I can't offhand think of any reason they might be losing the war, other than some unsupported dialouge. There may be reasons but they weren't obvious.
Game mechanic problem there I think. SEIV ain't that realistic on that front. There would be long running guerilla type problems, unless you have some clever reason to fix it OR the old rule by fear OR something.
Uhhhh I think he's just plain wrong here. Read some British history and understand what a monarchy actually is.
9 and 10 are game mechanics things. Don't describe combat as SEIV does, describe it as it should/could/might be. Loads of fighters, semi-suicidal bombing runs, NO talismans, something like that. Just a suggestion.
Meh, personal preference think. Depends what you want to do with story and were you take it.
You are always going to get hit with this. No matter how carefully you explain the dozens of SS acronyms that aren't Nazis some people will just jump to that conclusion. I think you will need to change it or accept that.
Well laughing at Stormies is funny. No idea why he put it in here. Ahhh watching the emperors finest being beaten by teddybears. It still makes me smile just thinking about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
Game Mech again. Although 400 ship fleet would be frankly unweidly, it would be difficult to have any real grasp of what would be happening everywhere. Now you could just focus on one small group of ships or a ship bet then you'd lose the whole epic scale. On the other hand a big fleet means pages of description and a risk of lack of connection. A ship you've never heard of gets blown up. Meh. A fleet in the dozens say you can get at least some connection to the ship, even if its just the flagship or carrier or whatever. It's a decision you'll have to take.
He has no sense of history, no tradition in his soul clearly. Ah well. Local units=better morale, or so the last UK defence reviews said. No reason it shouldn't apply in the future.
Gotta sort of point here. You say Icaran you think Greek. Almost all the names are western, yet there are the odd eastern name/reference thrown in. Little jarring at times and seems a little vauge in the story. I'm sure the backstory is solid but it doesn't come across well in the writing.
Game Mech again. Last comment is just a bit cruel but again the glimmer of a point. The speech does need a bit of sharpening in places. For very senior admirals some, not all by any means, but some bits didn't seem to fit.
When was that mentioned? I can't recall off hand any shield dropping to fire weapons. However if it was there it shouldn't be, or a damn good reason why. Consistency is important and will wind people up.
Yeah the long periods without leave are going to kill morale. Of course if you've got a long distance/emergency campaign its OK, but as a general rule long periods without planet side leave do seem silly.
No idea about naming, he could be right, he could be wrong. Absolutely no idea at all. Sorry
Style thing, if your going rule by fear the names are good, if not then you do need the nice propaganda names. Plus don't name every ship and make sure that the ones in combat have suitable names for whatever your going for.
True. Fix it. But it's a minor point. If they mean the same thing then say so, but really its not important how much a ship costs, its how much blam it can deal out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Ummmmm I am a bit torn on this one. On the one hand its what the charchter is, there will be some people who are whining about it. And the alternative is to have someone who is enjoying being in deepspace killing people. On the other hand - Admiral and a war for ages. They probably should at least not mind it as they can't complain everything has changed. But a character who is, well not enjoying the war, but appreciating it has to be done, liking the adrenlin/challenge/defending people. Not all your senior staff are going to want to get it over with and go home. Honestly I'd probably have to re-read it all for a proper comment on this part.
Uhhh "smarter sci-fi" readers..... And you just know he's including himself in that don't you.


OK overview: It ain't perfect, there are problems and I do think certain viewpoints/charchters and quite a few other things have drifted over the course of the story.

However drop the game mechanics, read and inwardly digest the usefull comments and start again with no reference to this (except the backstory). It has drifted and certain contradictory views need to be either tied down, or kept and explained how you end up with the two sides. A proper review would require me re-reading it and sadly I ain't got the time.

In summary your not going to please everyone and there will be people who don't like it, so take the usefull criticisms, ignore the rest and keep on trying.

Edited for lots of reasons really. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

I've read what this guy says and over half of it is just TOTAL HORSE CRAP. That guy knows NOTHING about the background, so that clears out over a dozen of his arguments.

He asks why all your ships are DN or bigger. Excuse me? Has he ever played against the AI? When I start a game with High tech level, the AI uses only DNs for years, then they start using Baseships, but still that means they're not using the smaller ships, not even for the defense modifier.

FLEETS of 400-500 Superdreadnoughts??? Man, this guy must be on the side of the Andermanians, if he wants you to kill off the Icaran economy entirely!

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Yeah but I hope he was reviewing it as a story independent of the game. Now alot of things make perfect sense only in the context of the game, but not so much as a story. You'd be crazy to use a mixed fleet in SEIV, but for a story it seems better and more realistic.

Which brings me back to the point. Lose the game mechanics. Make it realistic of course, but unless you want to sell it to just SEIV players (and there ain't that many of us http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) take of the straitjacket of the game and have some more flexibility. Variable sized ships in the fleets, different more elaborate space battles, fighters/bombers, worlds that have rebels problems even with loads of troops on them, ships that will surrender and no stupid suicidal attacks by small inferior fleets. That's just off the top of my head.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

El Phil, was it really necessary to quote that quote?

This guy clearly knows nothing about history or realism. The Roman Empire was rather religious... Gigantic space ships would never be able to just zoom around like fighters as they do in Star Trek.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Uhhhh probably not. I was going through point by point so it was at the time, I could of tidied it up I suppose.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Oh... didn't notice that it had responses interspersed. Perhaps remove a few quote tags from it so that others will actually see them? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

You know that's an idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

See that's what I was thinking Rome was religious and why does everyone think that in the future everyone is going to be an atheist and all governments are going to outlaw religion?

And same goes with massive warships, they would NOT zip and zoom like mad because no matter the fact that gravity doesn't effect you in space necessarily inertia still does as does mass.

El_Phil:

1. Thanks! I mean come on they are not nearly as amoral as the "evil universe" star trekkers.

4. The Xeno-vs-Human thing is as you said seemingly streightfoward to me as well, Xeno=sub-human thus not worth worrying about losses to them.
As far as the "inconsistent" approach to the other human nations it depends on which Admiral is looking at it, overall if your human and you surrender you'll be treated well, yet the Anderman and Mantis don't even relent in fighting back which earns both respect and hatred at the same time.

5. Well it was in part to show that the Icarans are still very much like us when it comes to interpersonal relationships.

6. Well remember he didn't say that I made it seem like I was "losing" just "struggling to win", he basically told me to just portray the invasions as an easy victory.
I did show in the story that Icara is meeting with some problems, remember the 2nd fleet was effectively disabled from the fight for months while their damaged ships were repaired.
The first fleet's offensive into Anderman territory was halted after a 105 ship Anderman fleet showed up -fortunately they didn't invade my bridgehead system as that would have caused serious losses-.
And the 3rd fleet suffered a 14 ship loss and was forced out of the Mantis invasion fortunately I got really lucky and pulled them out to Risa before Corellian went BOOM!

In fact both due to economic strain and enemy resistance I am struggling more then the individual battles make it sound like, besides that in the last three turns I've lost 11 planets.

7. It's part "rule by fear" and part "appealing to the masses", if you are a dissenter or government leader who resists or tries to get others to resist your shot plain and simple, if you are just an average citizen they appeal to your "sense of equality" among other things.

8. Yeah no kidding I mean Icara is a slightly modified monarchy.

9-10: BIIIG reason I don't stick to star trek like zippy zoom crap is because I wanted a deliberately "retro" style of fighting, if you've ever seen videos of WWII battles they're hardly "boring".
Ships of the Line (AKA Dreadnought and Bigger) in the Icaran universe are the only ships that can withstand streight up to to toe energy weapon battles because I lasers destroy cruisers and battle cruisers in about four good clean shots.
Light Raiders do exist in my fleet as stated but they are obviously not main combatants and fighters are useless.

I explained away "Talisman" as an advanced sensors suite, think uber Aegis.

11. Well IMHO the only side of Icara you see in the wars is the brutal merciless conquerers you don't see the culture the heritage or why they are brutal.

12. Yeah I'll get used to it lol

13. Considering there were real stormtroopers in this universe in the past, and considering that "stormtrooper" definately fits a force of elite soldiers who are used to capture fortified worlds....George Lucas didn't invent the term yah know?....well I guess he doesn't.

14. Well no offense but considering each SINGLE SD requiers a crew of 6,100 a fleet of 1,000 would be 6,100,000 people, doesn't this guy realize that the ammount of trained military personel you can raise is limited? I mean yes I have 480+ billion people in my empire but think about how many would be in the Merchant Marine the State Security, and the ground forces not to mention civilian sectors.
Now if he wants tens of thousands then the numbers just keep getting higher on personnel, not to mention how much money it costs to even build a single SD.

15. Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I liked the way I chose to name my regiments, I mean it's a sense of historic pride to the Icarans, they've been naming their units like that since the dawn of their Empire why would they quite after all that time?

16. Okay I actually did explain this, two ESS transports crashed on Brandenburg and were later rediscovered by the Icarans, the ESS was entirely ASIAN which means chinese/japanese all the others. And unlike many other cultures Asians tend to be much more concerned about "pure blood" so they'd likely be among the last of any peoples to change their ways and start intermingling blood and culture with the Icarans.

17. I don't know a lot of people must have been led into stupid ambushes in history, even good military commanders so it's not just a "game dinamic" it's reality.
And what do you mean "sharper"?

18. Actually heh, I sort of did make mention that Icarans have to drop their shields in the section where they are firing guns, because of the way their energy fields interact, it's ahem explosive....we ain't talking star trek/star wars shields where things can magically go out but not come in.

19. Well they do actually get R&R, I have mentioned that offhand but when your spending 90% of your time in a system that once belonged to the enemy and still has the occasional Riot it's best no to go planet side eh?

20. In a lot of places in Asia (including parts of China) the family name comes before the "First name" or if you have an extended family it goes from "clan-you-family" thus Yu Lin Pe, her family can trace it's self to the Yu's but her family direct is Pe her given name is Lin.
At least that's how I understood it when the Asian name thing was explained to me I may be wrong.

21.I actually name all my warships, and it depends on a lot of things I mean I have a ship named "Salvation" and a few others, my ships are named after, Places/Famous Icaran leaders/Battles/scary things/predatory animals.
It's actually not designed in the "Star Wars" way where it's to show you how pure evil the Empire is it's just that no navy would go around naming their ships "Kind and Cuddly or Fluffy Bunny" the Royal navy choses to name mainly after something that would make you think Power and force.

22.Crown= Five credits

23. Well the Icaran soldiers have seen millions and in some cases billions of people die in front of them practically, Ross for example was involved in several planetary purges.....no matter how long you've been fighting it still would have to ware at you every now and then, especially if your not a heartless killer.


Any other comments?

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

That guys is just plain wierd. I may be harsh when I critique, but at least my comments are reasonably well-informed -- and it probably helps that if I see something that doesn't jive, I assume that there is an explanation if I just ask for it!

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

The way this person critiqued and the reasoning behind his comments seems like he includes himself in the pre-8th grade level. Especially when he says:

That is about the most ignorant viewpoint I've ever heard. Most people I know who are religious (not fanatical but religious) are by no means ignorant. In fact, they're usually quite well learned and it's usually the opposite. Believing in God does NOT mean you don't believe in science. Those who totally disregard religion are generally the ignorant ones. Those people don't believe anything until science says so; even if it takes 10,000 years for science to "prove" it. Sooooo closed minded and superior. Bah!!!!!

Some people should really not open their mouths (or touch their keyboards) - it makes them sound really silly.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

See that's the thing that actually kind of confused me the most I mean granted I'm no quantum physisist but I am also not ignorant and I am religious.

But The part about being a good "light read" for "kids" is the part that hurt the most http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif I mean I didn't think my writing was that shallow hrm.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Starhawk writes:

"That hurt."

Two thoughts come to mind:

(1) Everybody's a critic. On the Netflix site I routinely see customer reviews ranging from one to five stars...for the same movie. Ditto for book reviews on Amazon.

(2) Even the best have to start somewhere. I once read a very early story by Isaac Asimov and found it rather, er, unpromising. He got a lot better.

Certainly if Starhawk's story is to become more than just fanfic, it needs considerable polishing, much revision, and a good editor. As fanfic, however, it's fine as is. And compared to the Jim Theis story mentioned in another thread, it's Shakespeare. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

With regard to the other points, I agree with most of what El_Phil wrote. Here are a few comments of my own:

1. (Star Trek) I saw very little resemblance to anything in Star Trek; certainly not the Federation or its "Mirror, Mirror" evil twin.

5. (romance) In a navy with mixed crews, romance is inevitable. I've read, for example, that in the modern US Navy, some 10% of female crewmembers are pregnant at the end of a cruise (the rest used birth control http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif). I've also read of considerable offshore "fraternizing" during Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm. Since "From the Beginning" includes many cultural and social elements, romantic episodes aren't out of place (even if certain war fans among us find them boring).

The romantic writing needs some polish, of course; what I've read seems a bit Hollywood-ish. And barring some advanced Icaran beautification technology, the vast majority of Icaran military personnel would probably be pretty ordinary looking. In behavior, I'd expect female crew to be something closer to a female R. Lee Ermey (the DI in "Full Metal Jacket") or "Stormin Norman" Schwartzkopf than to "Dizzy" or "Carmen" in "Starship Troopers". Think "Vasquez" in "Aliens".

6. (winning easily) From the story and side posts I got the impression that the early campaigns went well, but the Icarans met stiffer opposition later; there were some horrific descriptions of Icaran ship losses and heavy casualties among some fleet elements. I also seem to recall more than one period when the empire suffered substantial mineral shortages (tell me about it!).

7. (pacification) When a whole city, continent, or world is subject to immediate destruction for the transgressions of a few, I suspect the locals would be falling all over themselves to help root out any remaining rebels.

9. (dull battles) This point has some merit, but not because of the nature of SEIV battle. Personally I LOVE the broadside-to-broadside depictions of combat from the age of sail (e.g. "Master and Commander"). Air-sea battles from WW II could certainly be dramatic (e.g. Midway), but were often just slaughters (e.g. the sinking of Repulse, Prince of Wales, Musashi, and Yamato, the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, the Battle off Cape Engano, etc.). IMHO the gun battles were at least as exciting, if not more so (the point blank night battles in the Solomons, the Battle of the Komandorski Islands, the Battle of the Denmark Strait, etc.).

However, even the most exciting battle can be dull if poorly described. As others have suggested, it's not necessary (and is sometimes counterproductive) to follow game events too closely. If a game battle is a lopsided one-salvo victory, its fictional description can be "sexed up" into a desperate hours-long stuggle with failing shields, damaged armor, rescues of crippled ships, and even a few losses that didn't actually occur in the game.

A note on sci-fi fighters: "The Unknown Critic" seems to be a die-hard fan of the George Lucas "WW II in Space" school of space combat. In real life, spacecraft can't do aerobatics in a vacuum. In real life, aircraft have an advantage over surface ships because they operate in an entirely different medium. But even in fiction, space is space is space; "fighters" operate in the same medium as everything else and are therefore just smaller versions of conventional spacecraft. In a fictional universe where bigger is better, "fighters" are at the very bottom of the pecking order.

10. (capships rule) Unless there are multiple specialized roles (e.g. RL ASW, AA defense) or some efficiency of smaller scale, it's pure gimmickry to throw in various combat ship sizes just for entertainment value. Given fictional technology (warp drive, efficiency of large scale), 20th Century shipbuilding conventions need not apply.

11. (boring between battles) War has been described as "hours of boredom interrupted by moments of stark terror" (or something like that). In other words, any one individual, ship, fleet, planet, etc. will experience far more "peace" than war, even in the fiercest conflict. If an author chooses to include "peaceful" interludes in a war story/novel, the reader is free to skip over them. As I recall, Herman Wouk's "The Winds of War" and "War and Remembrance" were a lot more peace than war. Ditto for "War and Peace". For nonstop action, see a "Matrix" movie or read a Marvel comic book.

17. (dumb admirals) For a good overview of military incompetence throughout history, see Charles M. Fair's "From the Jaws of Victory", 1972. War is probably the most complex of all human endeavors, so it's not surprising that mere humans are less than perfect at it.

19. (no R&R) Given advanced Icaran entertainment technology (holodecks?) and the luxury of selecting unusually adaptable crews from "billions and billions" of candidates, I can see Icaran crews easily going without "shore leave" for extended periods. Alternatively, even on restive conquered worlds, the Icarans could make extensive safety zones for crew R&R; if they conquered Earth, for example, they might appropriate Australia and evacuate all but the most docile natives.

To summarize: Compared to professional writing, Starhawk's story predictably has a number of shortcomings. However, I think "The Unknown Critic's" assessment is wide of the mark on most of its points. I've been enjoying the story for what it is (amateur fanfic) and look forward to more.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Hey thanks for the input you guys I know my writing style needs more work but that is why I started writing this fanfic in the first place, to polish both my skills and my Characters/Cultures before I wrote a real full fledged book that people would pay to read.
I wrote out a plan of action when it came to how I want to write because I read on a lot of those "self publishing" sites that you need a plan of action and an idea of how you want your story to develope before you actually put "pen to paper".

As far as your points Hunpecked I'll respond by the numbers so I can have an "appropriate" placing for them and not just ramble http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

1. THANK YOU! I mean where do you see my guys assassinating each other to gain rank? I mean yes the captains and Admirals have their own personal guards but they are not really that much there to protect the captain from the crew as much as they are traditional and they go with the captain whenever they leave ship And YES they always carry sidearms (and marines and army always carry knives too) but they don't use them on each other!

5. Well to be honest with you Hunpecked I'm not all that experienced with romance as I've only asked two girls out since I reached dating age (only two that interested me)
The One said yes before thinking about the fact that she's my Kung Fu instructor's daughter which means NO lol
And the other I literally asked out a day late because someone else asked her out on Tuesday I asked her on wensday hehehe.
So I admit that could definately use polish, but as far as the tough women, Yeah I realized I was making some of them to dizzyish so I made Admiral Tanyra Bright Supreme Navy commander and gave a Woman command of both Home Fleet (Lin) and 5th fleet, though I haven't followed home fleet much because they've just been busy squashing worlds remaining loyal to their empires within Icara though I suppose that could be an interesting story point.
I am a big fan of strong tough women who don't take crap (look back to the first girl I asked out lol she could and has kicked my arse) so I will definately try to fix the "girlish" feel to them.
As far as beauty goes as I said I based parts of Lin on someone I've met and so the good looks comes from that.
I don't think I've ever really described the looks of the other female characters, Fowler was cute but not pretty or gorgious and Tanya is in her 70s (thought looks probobly 30 at oldest) so hmmmm.

AND I HATED CARMEN GAWD I wanted her to be the one to die not Diz, at least Diz didn't just scream and cry and play "pricktease" to every guy in the movie (rolleyes) so I definately don't want my chracters turning out like her lol.

6. Thanks I mean I tried to put the "devestating" effect that some of these seemingly minor losses actually had on the war front I mean if that guy had stopped and looked at the casualties from a single "minor" battle (over 89,000 in the one battle in under three hours!) I don't think he would have said that I wasn't losing enough ships, especially because yeah though I've destroyed a lot more of their ships then they have of mine all I did was open the range for them to build the latest high tech warships they have instead of leaving some of the older junkers lying around.
And yes mineral shortages have plagued the Icarans practically the whole story, which is in part why the offensives stalled up, I didn't have the resources to keep taking worlds that I'd have to upgrade just to get a profi from.

7. Yeah that's what my feeling was, that and you wouldn't really have the chance for "guerilla" warfare because if I see you shoot down a transport plane or blow up a convoy in the woods I'm just going to drop a baby nuke on the woods and get you out of my hair with it.

9. Well in part I wanted to show the "lopsided victory" and how it effects the morale of both the Icarans and their enemies, in a way it hurts Icaran morale because these aren't xenos your exterminating in the millions they're fellow humans who never stood a chance.
I also intended it to some respect to show the inherent cruelty of war that my characters are not the star trek "let's give them a chance to surrender" and then feel guilty when they don't and you have to kill them, the Icarans are the type that goes "good we outnumber them, crush them now." type of people....and in war is there any other type?
And those lopsided battles are quickly coming to a close as the invasion of the Mantis kingdom began, as I said my 3rd fleet was driven out without engaging because of the sheer size of the forces the Mantis put against me, so I should have some seriously interesting battles coming up in the near future, especially since unlike the Anderman the Mantis are gaining worlds every turn not losing them.

Note on fighters: I was thinking that as well, fighters can probobly do a little more maneuvering then a capital ship but for the most part they'd still have to come in 'streight and level' to eving begin an attack run, and while they were doing that the cap ships would dust them.

10. I used the "dreadnought and superdreadnought" only as a story point not just because of game physics but also because IMHO why would an Empire that has rather highly mobile forces "warp point openers in this case" make small ships in quantity unless they were specialized when they can not stand in a line of battle with the bigger nastier ships I mean let's face it a single SD can crush 3-4 battleships if it fires to disable them on the first volley and to kill on the second, I do have small specialized fleet ships that are both battleship size:
The Healing Way fleet maintenance ship and the Road Paver minesweeper/point defense ship.

11. As I said I felt the reader could learn more about the Icaran people by their way of life when they aren't fighting.

17. That's a very good point, wars are complicated blighters where even the slightest mistake can lead to a biiiiig! foulup and even the possible loss of a battle (fortunately I haven't "lost" any battles in a while)

19. Movie Night! Icarans are much more social than Star Trek people they don't just sit in their quarters listening to classical music with perfect posture, watch lame plays or have sex with holograms-which btw ewwww-.
Capital ship's have gyms and even small pools (about half what we would consider standard size for a rec center), they have a small theatre where holomovies (think 3d imaxish) are played and where the crew can socialize and get together, they even have small "restaurant" style mess halls designed to make the crews feel more at home and comfortable instead of just being around polished deck all day evey day.
And of course when possible Icarans have their own form of USO shows with concerts and other things of that sort, not to mention intership competitions which are heald during downtimes.

I mean considering the average Icaran fleet (1st 2nd and soon 3rd and 5th) have about a hundred SDs that's over 610,000 people per fleet! which means there are a lot of things to do to occupy your mind.

That's one thing I never got about ST all people ever seemed to do was sit in their quarters with perfect posture and listen to classical music, either that or go have sex with some of the easy space women that were out there every once and a while lol....I mean how boring can you get in life!


Oh and as you guys may have guessed by reading his critique the "Unknown Critic" as Hunpecked called him is a die hard Trekkie with a mild liking of Star Wars.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

In all things, there's a nice way to communicate your thoughts and some not-so-nice-ways. Don't get bogged down by the negative criticism. Take it all in, evaluate, and change what you think should be changed. One risk of putting up your work and asking for reviews is that someone will hurt your feelings.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Not really. Take everything you know about jet planes and throw it out the window. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif In space, facing is wholely irrelevant as far as inertia is concerned. You can quite easily face your target and fire at it while moving in any direction. Fire some side thrusters to change your facing without affecting your direction of travel significantly. Go watch some Babylon 5 episodes with fighter combats. They did it rather well in that show.

The difference between tiny craft, such as fighters, and gigantic craft, such as dreadnoughts, is that the tiny craft do not have much mass to whip about, combined with being rather small. The stress and shearing forces caused to the ship are far, far more drastic when you have a massive vessel compared to a small one. The small ones can execute wacky maneuvers far more easily than can a huge vessel. If you were to try and take a dreadnought and rotate it 180 degrees in a few seconds, you would probably rip it in half (or many more pieces). Maybe if it was a perfect sphere (or perhaps ellipsoidal even) you could design it to be structurally stable enough to perform fighter-like manuevers, but definitely not some other shape. Odd shapes become harder and harder to make reinforced and resitent to rapid maneuvers as the object gets more massive.

Make sure not to base anything on Star Trek. They have a cheesy "warp field makes mass negligible" effect going.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Yep definetly B5 for watching it. For how to chuck it into the story I do like the FreeSpace2 style. There's some line in the editing manual along the lines of making the cap ship combat roughly even with the fighters/bombers the deciding factor. So one decent bombing run can tip the balance, one 'suicide king' turret run can knock effectively take a cap ship out of the battle.

As for variable ship size, hmmm... Well you wouldn't need full DNs everywhere, just in your main fleet(s). There would be smaller ships for anti-pirate duty, convoy escort, etc. Plus say (battle)cruisers which are faster but less guns/armour. Dedicated anti-fighter escort vessels as well maybe, because your aren't going to waste space on a ship of the line with too much anti-fighter weaponry are you.

For ships of the line, if you want to use the Royal Navy system then Dreadnought is big primary gun only while Battleships have primaries and smaller secondaries for taking out yappy things.

Mind you, when (if http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) I carry on my stab I do plan to use most of the above ideas.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Fyron what i mean by "coming in streight and level" is that the fighter would still HAVE to approach in a streight line like any other ship it can't be dancing about while it's just approaching it's target because it would take forever to get anywhere lol and since a capital ship's guns outrange a fighters by a significant margin the fighters would get pounded before they got into a range where the "Dodging" and whirling would become effective.

Actually as stated I do have Light Raiders of the Hunt class and Artemis class SM raiders designed for capital ship steals. However since mainly I've been focusing on the main battle fleets I didn't much focus on the Light Raiders who've been stealing a whole load of colony ships for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Battlecruisers, I don't have the economy to support both a battle line and a patrol squadron and so I have chosen the primary battle line.

Convoys actually if you think about it would probobly have a dreadnought or superdreadnought escorting it depending on how big the convoy is and where it is headed

And yeah I have 2 battleship sized craft, one is a point defense craft the other is a fleet maintenance ship that has repair bays and the like.

I am not a firm beleiver in throwing in small ships just for pizazz effect since as said by Hunpecked there is no need to follow the modern ship design requirements.

Although yet another thing that never made sense ST wise, why does starfleet build so dang many classes of starship? I mean most modern navies build 1 or 2 class of ship per size grouping not 10 or more lol.
And why build such itty bitty ships when they clearly show that a Galaxy class (battleship) can juke and swing just as quick as a Defiant class (destroyer)

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

The cap ships main guns may outrange a fighters but such guns wouldn't have the fast tracking you'd need to hit a rapidly dodging fighter. Unless you've got some funky tech. of course. Besides a fighter should be a hell of alot faster than a cap ship, even when dodging and weaving, due to having a tiny fraction of the mass.

Frontline convoy maybe a ship of the line escort, but for anti-pirate duty it would be massive overkill, hence smaller ships. Also for a high speed convoy a DN would/could just slow things down. It depends upon the threat what escort is appropriate, so flexibility is good.

ST tends to keep ships around for decades so once something is built it stays. But you would build the newest design ship in your yards not a xx year old design, hence lots of different class ships that are similar sized.

Small ships for all the reasons above AND why build a BB sized science vessel? AND the Defiant was just guns no exploration role hence alot smaller.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Well as shown even in Babylon 5 (which btw I am a big fan of) a beam weapon just slices so you make a sweep with your beam cannons your bound to hurt a bunch of the fighters until they come within range of your PD cannons then they'll get torn up by those thus fighter=useless. Especially when (like me) you have at least two dedicated 24 PD cannon Point Defense ships in your fleets.

Well I've never mentioned non frontline convoys so that's a moot point, especailly since the only real convoys I have right now are transport fleets carrying State Security forces and those all have SD escorts for obvious reasons.

Another thing that is illogical I wouldn't keep an 80 year old ship in my fleet if I have a state of the art 2-10 year old ship to replace it, especially since in Star Trek money has nothing to do with it.

Ah yes but in star trek there are "no pirates" out there except the Maquis who were alll butchered by Cardies and Jem'He'Dar.

The Enterprise E actually is smaller than the D which is funny considering it's newer and an "Advanced Explorer" which as we've all seen by her firepower in Starfleet "Advanced Explorer" means "Battleship" lol.

I find it funny however that the defiant apparently packs more firepower then a freakin galaxy and yet they didn't create any more Defiants or outfit capital ships with pulse phaser cannons which are apparently much more powerful then a standard beam phaser.

Anyway my point is when it comes to the story so far I've had no need to mention light raiders or raiders and no need to mention my handful of BCs that are still patrolling my frontier sysems (2 last I counted) so meh.

Although I was thinking of producing a few battleships to act as a rapid strike force http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Meh!

Right what I was vaugely discussing wasn't something you'd use in the game, just a general suggestion for what would make a sparkly SEIV inspired battle.

As for keeping old ships in the fleet I know I do, even with a massive economy and loads of ship yards I still keep old BCs,etc knocking around. Now admitedly it's partly sentimental (How can you scrap a 'Legendary' ship? It's wrong I tell you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) but partly because they work and are good enough because of either A. Better Tech B. Better design (no wasted PD, SSD, etc) or C. Loads of numbers.

Of course this only applies to playing the AI.

If an exploration ship still works, why scrap it? If your a peacefull group why build brand new warships? If your stupid enough to employ Janeway and then make her an Admiral your entire high command is clearly senile http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Yeah in a non-game story I'd of course throw smaller ships into the mix other then DNs and SDs.

As far as keeping the old "legendary" ships knocking around, yeah I used to do that because it was "legendary" and had been through many battles, but it was also always a heart breaker when my Legendary 34th BC squadron got blown to hell by 6 SDs at a warp point battle.
In my newest game I have 1 of every old ship class in orbit of my homeworld in mothballs as a museum and put it as.
"Enterprise Museum" or so on so my most legendary ships (including Saber and Enterprise) are still around except that they are educating the youth of Icara http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif and their names are carried on with honors by newer warships.

I do admit though my Yu Hing's have one critical flaw in their design, they all have only lvl IV multi-plex trackers and not Vs so hehe in that department I am outdated though so far I've had no problems because of it. Other then that all my ships have the latest technology and size so that I don't end up out of date when fighting.

Yeah if you make Jane the I got lost in the wrong bloody quadrent and gave up half a dozen chances to return home because "it wasn't moral" or whatever as an Admiral you know starfleet is desperate for flag officers lol.....though she made Admiral and Picard didn't BULL HOCK! what did she do that Picard didn't other then stupid stuff that Picard was too smart to do?

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

That's the problem clearly. He was too smart to be Admiral, these are the same people who made Riker an admiral and sacked Kirk from the job.

That's the only solution: There is a maximum IQ level for an admiral in ST. It would explain alot


Back to stock fighters I must admit my current favourite use for them: Mobile ablative armour. Vast screens of dirt cheap small fighters forming mobile armour around my cap ships. Ridiculoulsly impractical, almost pointless and it does require several systems building nothing but fighters. Still if you can't muck around in stock what can you do? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

OMG He doesn't quit here's his last e-mail to me (and I say last because I blocked him after this one heh)

Heh thank God for that lovely BLOCK button with hotmail right lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And here is my reply for you guys (though I don't care if he happens to ever find these forums and posts a pissy remark or two hehe)

24. Apparently he hasn't grasped the concept of the fact that the ICARANS are both TERRIFIED of and LOATHFUL towards Xenos and thus would want them as concentrated and isolated as possible....makes them easier to elimate should the time come.

25. BUUUUUUUURP I'm sorry what I wasn't paying attention.....okay wait I got it, this ain't star Trek Ross ain't captain Sisko and he's not going to face down a vastly superior fleet yet pull a miracle out his wazooo and win.

26. Um it's happened before.....and at much younger ages and worked out fine. And besides by time your 17 you should be over the squacky, ?gushy wtf is gushy? phase I mean I stopped squacking at 13 (the gushing over girls I just don't know what that means lol)

27. Uh again this ain't star trek and the fleet security teams ARE MARINES lol.

28. Short answer yes long answer HELL YES they can be racist against xeno's after NOT being racist against humans considering most humans don't have bright yellow skin buldging eyes or 60% cybernetic bodies.....uh Phong Xiati respectively.
And yes just because you are "racist" doesn't by default make you a bad person as it is a matter of breeding/fear that makes you racists, and it is more accurate to say they are xenephobic and not racist they have nothing against aliens just because they are aliens they have something against them because of the threat they pose to mankind.

29. Doesn't this just restate the point about retarded admirals? Yeah okay obviously he doesn't realize that wars can change very very quickly.

30. No I throw them in for the great tail factor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

31. Car...ee....ur? what?

32. Again is that an insult? or a compliment I got confused.

33. Yeah Palpatine with a squacky girl gushing voice? boy your confusing.

34. BECAUSE THEY GENETICALLY ENGINEER THEIR SOLDIERS AND I'VE STATED THAT!


Anyhoo as I said he's blocked now but that was just funny this time around, I mean those aren't constructive at all just rags about the fact I don't have uber admirals or star trek/star wars things. I think he should read/watch more sci-fi before he equates everything to Star Trek/Star Wars feh.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Long range attacks are much harder IRL than in SE4.
1/r^2 effects are very very nasty, even if you neglect the time-to-target factor. The linear falloff in SE4 does match its 2D nature though.

If money is not an issue, why scrap old warships and then build new ones? Just build new ones and upgrade the old.
Having very long build times (how many years to build a galaxy class?) also means you do not want to throw anything out.
Warships are not like paper plates and plastic cutlery.
...
Unless you choose the "disposable society" culture in CBmod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Well actually apparently a Galaxy can be built in one year considering some sources state that during the dominion war 23 were built per year....some place the number higher up but 23 seems reasonable considering that's 23,000 people and that's excluding the "destroyers, frigates" and other smaller ships that starfleet seems to like building.

CBmod? what's that?

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Starhawk writes:

[re: "Starship Troopers"] "AND I HATED CARMEN GAWD I wanted her to be the one to die not Diz..."

Carmen was a bit over the top, but I did like two things about her... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

i think this one cuts to the heart of things. there are no 'bad guys' in the world. people do things that they think will benefit them, either directly or indirectly. and they all think they are right. good people do bad things. bad people do good things. in reality, there is no good and bad.

some people cant understand this, and just want a clean cut 'good vs bad' story. i wouldnt pay any attention to them, if i were you.

I dont know about his other comments, since i have not read the whole story. but i think number 4 above disqualifies him from being anyone i would consider able to write inteligent criticism of complex ideas.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Imperator Fyron writes about scifi "fighters":

"You can quite easily face your target and fire at it while moving in any direction."

And future weapons systems may not even require that the vehicle face the target. On the other hand, stock SE IV uses non-Newtonian movement (constant speed vs accel/decel), which might require both "fighters" and DNs to "face" the direction of movement at all times.

"The difference between tiny craft, such as fighters, and gigantic craft, such as dreadnoughts, is that the tiny craft do not have much mass to whip about, combined with being rather small."

Actually not entirely mass; more like thrust-to-mass ratio. In WW II, for example, not only did aircraft operate in a different medium (air vs. water), but they also had a ferocious power-to-mass advantage (TBF Avenger vs Iowa BB, ballpark estimate: the plane has about a 60-fold power-to-mass advantage for a 6-fold speed edge).

As for maneuverability, that depends on your fictional universe. In SEIV Gold stock even dreadnoughts can reverse on a dime, at least at the scale of the battle map. Perhaps DNs are clumsier on a smaller scale (don't fighters get a defense bonus?), but the non-Newtonian movement system may impose similar micro-maneuverability on both.

Actually, since "space fighters" are basically just miniature capships, I'd say a better analogy is the WW II era PT boat. Compared to its big brothers, the PT boat was much smaller (50-odd tons), more maneuverable, and maybe 2X faster (tops). The PT boat was perhaps harder to hit with WW II weapon systems than the SE IV "fighter", but given future computer fire control, scifi beam weapons (light speed or a significant fraction thereof) and the vacuum environment (e.g. kinetic kill via ball bearings scattered in the fighter's path), one can rationalize the effectiveness of SE IV anti-fighter fire.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Good point Puke, I mean almost no one is pure good or pure evil they do what they feel is necessary either to benefit themselves or preserve their people from what they see as the "bad guys". There are of course evil bastards among the Icarans but for the most part they aren't that much different then modern day people in that they are a mix of good qualities and bad.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

You might not like his points.... But remember this he is reading your stories. And taking the time to actually write you in the attempt to help you. Perhaps you should take these points and ask someone else who has not read your story to read it and see if they notice these things. Do something constructive with it instead of what your doing now.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Or better yet get the oppinions of people who HAVE read my story and see if they can find these problems in my story....like I did and yah know what it worked fine so far and most of his "problems" these folks have even stated are just nitpicks.

As far as his legitimate points go well then the kind folks here pointed those out as well except they also gave advice on how to fix it not just belching out insulting rhetoric.

There is a difference in pointing out errors and solutions with those errors and just pointing out pet peeves.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

well if you want to get into writing get used to it. And this person is reading your chapters. As far as i can see here. the dudes comments made some sence to you so you posted it here looking for some support before you began attacking them. You attacked me for posting that you should take something positive out of the situation. Stories are about Conflict and Growth. As is writing.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

El-Phil writes:

"Well you wouldn't need full DNs everywhere, just in your main fleet(s). There would be smaller ships for anti-pirate duty, convoy escort, etc."

Perhaps. On the other hand, there's something to be said for having one ship that can fill BOTH roles vs 2-3 that can fill only one, and then only against similar-sized ships.

"...your aren't going to waste space on a ship of the line with too much anti-fighter weaponry are you."

Depends. In strategic combat, with its brain-dead AI, there's no guarantee the anti-fighter/missile ship(s) will always be where it's needed (e.g. it could be dead or out of position).

"For ships of the line, if you want to use the Royal Navy system then Dreadnought is big primary gun only while Battleships have primaries and smaller secondaries for taking out yappy things."

Actually, it seems BOTH the primary (12 - 13.5 inch) and secondary (6 - 9.2 inch) batteries of pre-dreadnoughts were intended for the enemy's battleships, with the tertiary battery (3 inch and below) targeted on "yappy things" (LOL) like torpedo boats. At the expected engagement range of 3,000 yards or so, the secondaries would theoretically shred the lightly armored parts of the enemy battleships while the heavy guns delivered the death blow. In practice, however, the shell splashes from the secondaries tended to interfere with spotting for the big guns. Moreover, after the Battle of Tsushima, where much of the firing was at two to three times the expected range, it was recognized that the secondaries would be ineffective at "modern" distances. Dreadnoughts of the early 1900s basically dispensed with the intermediate guns and mounted a secondary battery (6 inch and below) for torpedo defense. HMS Dreadnought herself was built with 18 12-pounders to deal with "yappy things".

Reference: http://www.gwpda.org/naval/pdredmdg.htm

As I've read on this forum, the SE IV strategic battle AI also has something of a problem handling ships with mixed-range batteries. I've even seen this myself in a strategic battle with a TDM AI. Each of the AI's BCs, apparently using a Max Range strategy, closed to the range of its single range 7 weapon (shield depleter?), ignoring its three range 6 weapons (acid globule?). After an ineffective enemy salvo, my own BCs (also Max Range) closed to range 6 and fired 6 PPB V each. The 6 to 1 exchange of fire essentially decided the battle.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

First of all i didn't see "sense" in most of them I saw an insulting bunch of nitpicks that I was worried about because I was afraid maybe I had written my story wrong because I tend ot lack confidence in my non-school writing.

Secondly, I did not "seek support" I saught advice and when people stated that most of his comments were bull then I learned to lighten my attitude towards them a little and have fun at the expense of what was really hurting my feelings.

Third: I did listen to what the folks said was good points accept stated badly and you know what I've already stated I am going to fix what I can, but it will take a little bit of time for me to learn to "mature" my writing to the point I really can find satisfying.

Fourth: You stated nothing to actually help you basically just came in and said "Yeah he was rude and insulting but he was right." so you're the one who came across as attacking.
I just stated that for me it makes more sense to have people who have already watched the writing evolve and improve as time goes by and see what they think of the story as a whole and if they can find these problems.

Okay my story is over 200 PAGES WITHOUT the footnotes and excluding some of the chapters that I had to post directly to the net, and thus people who have read up to most of it are much more effective with seeking advice then someone who is going to have to start all the way from the beginning.

Now if you saw me stating these as attacks maybe your the one who's a little sensetive eh? I have no problem with constructive criticism but CONSTRUCTIVE means that you give a means or at least try to give advice about how to solve the problem you are criticizing it does NOT include simply stating
"I don't like the names
"I don't like this your admirals are retarded blah blah."
the reason I posted here seeking advice was because as someone who has read a lot of sci-fi and found a lot of names involved stupid sounding "Grgnr" I wondered if mine could fall into that catagory.

As well as the "traditionalist" approach to naming my regiments I wondered if other people shared his impression of "I don't get it" or just thought it was lame.

The rest as I said I was more worried about as this is the first Completely attack mode review anyone has ever given me, I've even had some of the folks here critique my work and you know what? That's fine because they try to help me work through what I did and actually tell me when I reached a good point or if it still needs polish so I actually learn something from the experience and yeah sometimes it hurts my feelings but in the end I realize that it will improve me in the end.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Starhawk writes:

"5. Well to be honest with you Hunpecked I'm not all that experienced with romance as I've only asked two girls out since I reached dating age..."

Not to worry. I dated 3 GF and married the 4th; I figure in another 100 years or so I might have an iota of an inkling of an understanding of romance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

And when personal experience is lacking, there's plenty of second-hand information out there, if you keep your eyes open. Fantasy romance, as portrayed in movies, TV, and romance novels, is readily available. But more realistic or "scientific" information can be found in newspapers, news magazines, and Web articles. Some random examples and observations (though I can't vouch for their accuracy):

People tend to choose spouses whose "overall social value" (a composite of beauty, wealth, intelligence, personality, age, etc.) is roughly equal to their own. Serious mismatches (e.g. Hunpecked and Catherine Zeta-Jones) are rare and pretty much doomed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

In "good" marriages (as judged by trained observers), spouses exchange X number of little affections per day (gift, phone call, caress, slipper fetch, even a glance); in "poor" marriages spouses exchange Y affections, where Y is much smaller than X.

In "good" marriages the husband accedes to the wife's wishes more often than vice-versa. BTW, Mrs. Hunpecked's pet name is "Yes Dear". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Peacocks have outrageously long and gaudy tail feathers because for ages peahens have preferentially mated with long-tailed males. Human females have (proportionately) the largest bosom among primates because men bred them that way. Human males are aggressive scum-sucking pigs because for some unknown reason females bred them that way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

The song "B###h" by Meredith Brooks is in my experience an amazingly concise yet accurate description of female behavior. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Hope this helps.

*** Change of Subject ***

I think tesco samoa has a good point. On the internet it generally costs nothing to be polite even in the face of perceived rudeness. Though the Unknown Critic makes few valid points, I think his/her comments have a certain minuscule value. If nothing else, they stimulated some self-analysis that might not otherwise have occurred.

BTW, it's also polite to ask permission before posting another's E-mail; I hope that was the case here.

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

I just want to say that we all use elements of our lives in our stories. I did with Once Upon The Stars, and I know many others have with their works. When I am in a full blown depression, I find it a lot easier to write with meaning than when I am say in a semi optomistic mood about life.

I have seen, and read, a lot of sci-fi shows and books in my life and I can tell you that some of the writing on this site rivals some of the best writing I have read from pubilished authors.

When it comes down to the core of the story, its the process of writing it that brings the joy, the reward is that people enjoy what you have written and want more. Starhawk, keep writing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

Hehe well Hunpecked that is actually really helpful thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I mean the only "personal" references to "romance" that I've been able to observe for long periods, in my personal life are guys my age that date 10-12 girls a year because they just want to get laid as fast and often as possible and don't give a damn about the girls they are with and when those girls figure it out they ditch the jerk.
So I didn't want to use that as a reference point obviously, the other true romances I've seen are usually only brief because unlike the above people they don't tend to brag or spout everything and everyone they've been doing that year.

And I actually did mix a wee bit of holywood in to the "romance" which I guess is what helped make it a little cheesy huh? Aw well live and learn and improve as I go.


As far as Tesco goes, I'm sorry I was rude and it was probobly unintentional of you to come across as rude.

Regarding the self analysis, I suppose you are right his hurting my feelings that severely did certainly cause me to analyse my story in a way I had never done before though for the most part it just made me really afraid my writing really did suck.


AT: Thanks that's actually quite helpful and uplifting I tend to be very judgemental about everything I do when it comes to writing or stoytelling.....oddly enough I can lead a class of people in difficult things yet when it comes down to writing what should be a simple thing I tend to analyse and look at it so much I freak out a little heh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Somebody\'s critique of my story
 

its ok no offense taken. was just trying to help you see something positive out of the whole thing. that was my intent.