How to use Golems?
 

On several occasions I was reading here about equipping Golems and using them as SC. Having tried it, I've encountered one major problem: they are lifeless, and as such can't regenerate. So even if they manage to kill all the enemies, they get afflictions and end up crippled. Is there some way to avoid or fix that, short of forging a Chalice? (I'm not ever sure Chalice will fix them)

Re: How to use Golems?
 

I don't use them much as SC, but with a decent armor, a luck item, a MR item and a lifedrain weapon (you can't be drained but still profit from draining IIRC) they are pretty solid... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Yep, but how to protect them from getting afflictions? Even with luck, etherealness and astral shield they are sure to be hit now and then.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

You could also go with the Nasty Golem of Doom, a golem equipped with Returning (Armour of Virtue or the ritual doing the same thing), and casting miscellaneous spells at the enemy army. Astral Tempest is fun, and you can probably add something tougher to make things nastier.

Alternatively, the Chalice should heal Golems just fine, unlike the Heal command, so you could aim at snatching that artifact. It is pretty cheap too, and very useful, so it won't be a waste of gems.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Build more golems. You can start with them as a regular sc then once they get too many afflictions, transfer their equipment to a fresher golem, and use the afflicted one as Alneyan suggest above -- teleport in and cast spells then retreat (or ritual of returning, or just let them die) - astral tempest, doom, etc. lots of fun ones to pick from.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Note that Golems are not amphibious, so two of the biggest Golem users (Atlantis and Rlyeh) can't put returning effects on them under any circumstances.

A Golem with a Hellsword, a Ring of the Warrior, a Starshine Skullcap, an Amulet of Antimagic, Winged Sandals, and the biggest armor you can find makes for a mighty nice SC for a long time. Have it begin each battle with Astral Shield, Luck, and Body Ethereal and then have it go kill stuff. It's pretty resistant to just about all forms of death, and its flying status means that it can run around harrying small enemy forces rather than fighting any big armies alone.

-Frank

Re: How to use Golems?
 

You forgot astral weapon, the most important buff.
AN Lifeleech attack is nasty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

I actually use Golems a little more like SC-Killers, especially lifedraining ones.

Giving a Golem a Herald Lance, Starshine Skullcap, Charcoal Shield, and various other items, along with Astral Weapon they can kill most of those nasty Bane Lords/Tartarians/Vampire/Undeadspammer nations as instareact forces. Allowing you to selectively kill those who rely too heavily on Life Drain or Demon (devil) armies. They are nice for surprise attacks and tide turners.

Considering their teleport ability, there is no reason not to use them with a significant Astral Income. The real downside is the fact there is only one real nation that can reliabily cast them with national mages (Arco) without help from a Pretender for buffing items which is sad.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

R'lyeh can also field them pretty consistently; after all, almost every fourth Starspawn mage has at least E1, right? (Also, Pythium's Grand Theurgs are worthy golem-makers. But they are hellishly expensive, capital only and just 1/8 have Earth, so I'm not sure if that can be called reliable.)

Re: How to use Golems?
 

No Feet slot make that pretty hard. Unless your Starspawns happen to have feet instead of tentacles and/or whatever it is that Starspawn walk with.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Are you going to change that in your nations mod?

After all illithids are extremely intelligent beings so why shouldn't they be able to forge magic shoes for their feet tentacles? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Just looking more closely at the Golem but the basic attack is very low which seems to make the golem a bit weak imho.
You have 8/8 Base Attack/Defense while the devil has 18/16 Base Attack/Defense and a Bane Lord 14/14.

Herald lance gives +1 to attack, burning pearl +4 and ring of warrior +5.
So you can get a maximum attack value of +10 and get a 18 attack with the herald lance then.

A standard blood thorn,lucky coin,quickness,-1 def armor bane lord has then 19 defence, such a devil 21 defence.

The attack calculator says 18 attack vs. 19 defence there is
a 35,9% chance for hitting and this chance is halfed because of the luck effect.

The Banelord/Devil otoh almost always hits the golem and fatigues him through lifedraining.
Furthermore if you teleport the golem in you are the attacker, hence the first 2 strikes normally go to the defending Bane lord/Devil and they normally fatigue the Golem quite a bit , as a side effect lowering his attack value.
2nd side effect is that the golem can't buff probably.

So in theory the golem should suck vs. even a lousy banelord.
I am curious now and will test this tomorrow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Rlyeh usually has little difficulty making a staff of elemental power and even less making a ring of wizardry.

It is a major pain in the *** that Earth bonuses are so hard to get. The fact that there isn't an easy equivalent to the Bag of Winds/Water Bracelet in Earth is quite vexing on many levels.

Heck, I'd be happy with some Earth bonus Armor. Or a Shield. Or anything. At all. Right now, short of Unique Artifacts, Earth needs at least 3 picks of another magic type to get its second bonus point (from a Blood Stone bbbe, Ring of wizardry sssss, Staff of Elemental Mastery fffwwww or eeeaaa, or Robe of the Archmagi bbbbaaaa). Every single other magic type gets an easier second bonus. Even Fire (which needs a Death of all things to get the Flaming Skull) can get by on a single random pick coming up the right way to get the second bonus point.

And the uniques aren't a lot better. There are three unique artifacts that grant an Earth bonus, of which one is the same slot as the regular Earth Boots (Anteus' Boots are, however, totally sweet. They just don't aid in the department of Earth Boosting at all). And the other two are themselves basically no good. The Sword of Many Colors is extremely expensive, and requires a 4/1 split. The Book requires a 2/2 split.

If you count Uniques, Earth is the only magic type that can't self-buff itself twice.

Air can boost itself with the Winged Helm and Bag of Winds.
Water can boost itself with the Water Bracelet and the Robe of the Sea.
Death can boost itself with the Skull Face and Staff.
Nature can boost itself twice with the Treelord's Staff all by itself.
Astral can boost itself with the Starshine Skullcap and the Ring of Sorcery.
Blood can boost itself with the Blood Thorn and the Brazen Head.

Even Fire can double self-boost with the help of the Flaming Helmet and the Ruby Eye.

Only Earth has no ability to get its second bonus. And that really hurts groups like Ulm who are supposed to rely upon Earth as their primary sustenence.

---

But that's all irrelevent for the purposes of Rlyeh getting Golems. You only need the second Earth to make one, and the Ring of Wizardry is completely available with Construction 6, and the Golem comes in with Construction 7. So since 23.44% of your Starspawn Mages is going to have at least one earth, the problem is solved before it even happens.

-Frank

Re: How to use Golems?
 

The Golem is Lifeless. How does the Banelord/Devil fatigue him with Lifedraining?

-Frank

Re: How to use Golems?
 

80 Pearls or 20Fire/Water 20Air/Earth (of which R'lyeh only has access initially to water, which is used by VoT more than likely if you want to support your Elemental summoning) to be able to Summon Golems isn't exactly "little difficulty".

And as I said originally, Arco is the only nation _without boosters_ that can summon Golems (by luck even). You can summon Golems with R'lyeh, but it's a rarity I have found since I (Purely a me thing) will rarely make a Ring of Wizardry without a forge bonus. Unless you are playing in some sort of hordeathon it's not really a good use of your resources (especially pearls) when Bane Lords, Devils (etc) come into play (As soon as T20, but to be safe between 25-30). I don't really see you having 80 Pearls + the 30 a shot per golem (usually it's not profitable to use less than 3 as a reactionary force) from turn 25-35.

The only times I can see making a Ring of Wizardry, at full price, for golem work is in the late game (where better options exist) or if you have a global like a Arcane Nexus or you buy into the horde mentality (some do and I guess I can see it, I don't like playing those sort of boring games).

So yes, it can be done, but not what I would consider feasibly in a MP scenario. Which colors my perspective.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Troops with a base encumbrance of 0 do not get fatigued when hit with a lifedrain weapon. Nor will the lifedrain weapon drain anything from the lifeless golem.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Earth is the second easiest after water. Until construction 6, earth is the easiest to boost.

Both air boosters require A3. The fire helmet booster (which isn't particularly useful on the battlefield) is F3. Skulls of fire are D1F1. Earth also has the B3E1 blood stone, which isn't too hard to make in small quantities.

Empowering from B1 to B3 takes only 70 blood slaves. From B0 it's onlt 120. That's not that hard to come up with.

Incorrect. Air has only A3.

It's also one of the more powerful schools, so this isn't too much of a problem.

The ring isn't particularly afforadble.

As well as the armour of souls.

A ring of wizardry costs 80 astral pearls. That's still a rather large problem to overcome.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Well, Voice of Tiamat usually solves the elemental gem problem, making it quite possible to forge an Elemental Staff for the purpose. Of course settings an mileage vary, so I'm not sure if getting one can be said to be reliable. Same for the blood stone, which is even easier usually.

Doesn't Arco need at least one astral booster to make Golems? Or how's it done "_without boosters_"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Boron - I was thinking someone would put jade armor or boots of quickness on a golem. So +3 attack right? But I agree, the 8 base attack & defense is rather problematic.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Poor Arcoscephale indeed needs one booster to get a Golem. I think only R'lyeh can get Astral 3/Earth 2 without any boosts, as their Starspawns appear to have full randoms. Of course, only one Starspawn in 64 will qualify, but still.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Yeah i forgot that. Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
I modified the minimap now i start testing various golem builds vs. various banelord builds.

I found out though that Graemes statement is untrue:
The golem gets encumbered just as any other unit from my test-bloodthorn banelord.


Here first test:
Golem:
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/35/21...3465616138.jpg
Bane Lord:
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/35/21...3838353766.jpg

Golem casts twist fate and astral weapon, gives him 28 fatigue.
Setup 1:
Both attack same province at the same turn.

Battle 1:
Golem wins easy.

Battle 2:
Golem wins, is hit only once, 35 fatigue at end of combat.

Battle 3:
Golem wins easily.

Setup 2:
Banelord has first attack.

Golem also wins the 3-4 testbattles easily, probably thanks to the twist fate.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Test 2:
The banelord has changed, another rather "standard" one:
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/35/21...6261646431.jpg

Setup:
Banelord has the first 2 attacks, golem is unbuffed, scripted to twist fate and astral weapon, then attack closest.

Battle 1:
Golem down to 65 hp,forgot to check fatigue, then banelord dead.

Battle 2:
Golem down to 19 hp and 67 fatigue.

Battle 3:
Golem down to 79 hp and 34 fatigue.

Battle 4:
Golem down to 85 hp and 31 fatigue.

Battle 5:
Golem down to 85 hp and 49 fatigue, wonder how that worked, still full hp but 21 fatigue from hellsword?

Anyway the golem wins vs. this cheap but suboptimal banelord easily even though the banelord has first strike and attacks while buffing !

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Go Golem!

I suppose with the 3x damage it'd usually kill the bane lord on the first (successful) hit.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Test 3:
"Anti-Golem-Banelord"
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/35/21...3231346431.jpg

The golem has also slighty changed, replaced the lucky coin with charcoil shield as suggested by Zen in an earlier post.
Script for golem is now Luck,Astral Weapon,Attack closest.

Test 1: All odds for the Banelord, he gets attacked by the golem, hence the first two strikes go to the banelord, then the golem has to buff.
Let's see if he can kill the golem under these excellent conditions.

Battle 1:
Banelord wins after a few rounds, golem never hits him, Golem down to 43 hp in first round, to 20 hp in 2nd round, to 1 hp in third round, killed in fourth round.
Golem never hits the banelord, he just loses 1 hp to the fireshield from charcoil shield.

Battle 2:
Banelord down to 35 hp.

Battle 3:
Banelord down to 41 hp.

This special Banelord is only useful vs. constructs though with the smasher weapon.

I will try another Banelord now with a AN weapon which will be more widely useable as antiSC-Banelord.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Test 4:
Gatecleaver Banelord
http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/35/21...3864656464.jpg

Other gear: Idea is to maximize attack, the banelord has to kill in the first round.
If he hits with both attacks he should succeed.

Golem is still the charcoil shield golem.

Battle 1:
The Banelord hits with first attack, Golem down to 38 hp, got also an affliction, lost one eye.
Now the weird: The banelord misses his second attack ... vs. 13 defence only.
Golem kills the bane with one strike then, was extremely lucky.

Battle 2:
Banelord again fails one attack, Golem survives with 27 hp and affliction neverhealing wound... .

Battle 3:
Banelord hits with both attacks, Golem dead.

Battle 4:
Banelord hits with both attacks, Golem dead.

Battle 5:
Banelords hits once, Golem down to 27 hp, affliction weakened, kills banelord then.

Battle 6:
Banelord misses the Golem with both attacks ?
Really weird ... . The Golem has 13 Defence, no luck since he couldn't buff yet, Banelord has 25 Attack.

The attack calculator from sunrays site gives 98,8% chance of hitting under these circumstances, for 2nd attack it should even be 99,2%.

In those 6 battles the banelord had 5 failed attacks though and 6 successful ones?
That should be statistically really rare to happen?
Or is it a sign that the attack calculator is not working 100% and there is maybe something hidden in the game mechanics like a cap that the chance to hit can never be higher than 80% or something like that?

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Since the attack and defense dice are open ended, there is always going to be a 16.7% chance that any die is going to be a +5 with an additional d6 added on. So it takes some serious cojones to get your chance to hit above about 80%. To the best of my knowledge, there is no absolute cap at that point, but I'm not sure if the attack calculator is taking into account the exploding dice.

-Frank

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Hmmm. I was thinking about using a Star of Thralldom for my Golems, for +6 attack is really helpful for these poor clumsy guys. Is that weapon absolutely hopeless?

Re: How to use Golems?
 

A few clarifications: When I mentioned the Charcoal Shield it was intended for False Horror/Undead Spammer reactionary force. Which tends to be more of an issue in the timeframe I suggested earlier (20-35).

Also late in the game the golems are good for Immortal Duty, from Vampires to Demi-liches in particular are easy to kill with Golem attacks.

For Banelord Duty, the setup that Boron suggested works fine. Of course Banelords can be equipped with items that will defeat golems. But on the flip side, you only need one item to turn the tide on the Banelord/Wraithlord attack force which happens to be a Wraith Crown (for it's Undead Horde ability for chaff).

Usually you can use one Golem with a Wraith Crown and suppliment it's astral to teleport with a Crystal Coin along with normal equipment then 2+ equipped to kill whatever it is you happen to be needing to kill.

I have found that in this particular scenario, it's rare that someone will be prepared to fight against a decent construct army, as most people rely heavily on Mechanical Men and Living Statues for construct support.

Re: Boosters.

When I said Boosters I ment from other (pretender, Indy mages, or Summons). When something can craft it's own booster (like Mystics with Starshine Skullcaps or Crystal Coins) to cast a spell I put it in the 'easy' category.

Also considering that at max, a Mystic will need 10 Earth/10 Astral (even on those Mystics who only get 1 Earth) to create golems, it's much more likely.

I also believe that starspawns are split Randoms like S&A Celestial Masters. 1 Elemental 1 Sorcery. I'm not 100% certain but I believe so.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

I got one Starspawn with Air 2, and another with Nature 1+Death 1, so they are full randoms.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Teleporting SC assassin squad. Works best in pairs.

Two Swords of Quickness.
Astral Cap
Jade Armor
Flying Boots
2 Stone Birds

Astral Weapon, then attack.

4 Armor Negating Attacks
8 Worthless Bird Attacks
Now... opponent is at -12 defense.
4 More Armor Negating Attacks
8 Worthless Bird Attacks

Now if you have a second golem. The SC is at -24 defense.

If only the Astral Weapon affected the Bird Attacks...

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Using two "SC" type units in the same battle like this is a dodgy proposition unless you are SURE you are going to win. Since via the morale system, any army composed entirely of commanders (as this one is) will flee after the first casualty, right?

Also, are you sure that Stone Birds reduce defense like that?

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Golems never retreat, right? That should be easy enough to test.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Mindless commanders never retrat.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Every attacks lowers defending unit's defense by one for the rest of the round. That's why high-def units will die if they get surrounded. And it really is number of attacks, not number of weapons, so Stone Bird's four attacks lowers target's defenec by 4 for the rest of the turn.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

I just have a few stupid idotic questions which I think I need to know
1. how do you summon golems?
2.what does sc stand for?

I know these are stupid but I need to know

Re: How to use Golems?
 

1. Golem summoning spells are in the contruction path. You need earth and astral to summon golems.

If go to the research screen you can click on the paths listed and then you see all the spells in that path. You can click on all the spells to see what they do.

2. SuperCombattant. Fighter that can kill lots of people without dieing.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

thank you I know that they are stupid questions but I have not learnt about everything in the game yet...

Re: How to use Golems?
 

dont worry mate, im new to, but im slowly learning and im sure you are too

Re: How to use Golems?
 

What about Earth boots ? all you need for those is earth 2 and you have a basic earth booster.

From memory all of the paths get one basic booster.

Astral - Starshine
Blood - Brazen Skull
Fire - Flame Helmet
Earth - Earth Boots
Nature - Thistle Mace
Water - Water Bracelet
Death - Skull Staff
Air - Winged Helmet

Then there are the others like crystal coin, bloodstone, skull of fire, moonvine, bloodthorn, armour of souls etc etc etc

Spiro

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Different paths have different number of boosters. I think all have two. There is a spreadsheet with that info around somewhere...

Re: How to use Golems?
 

There are some interesting booster choices in there. As an example, Air has two boosters at Constr. 4 that take Air 3: Bag of Winds and Winged Helmet. Forging those, with a mercenary if needed, is all you need to be able to do more Air boosters on your own. Trading for one Air booster or getting lucky in randoms can have a huge effect on your game. This is especially well seen with Arcoscephale's Mystics.

I like doing Rainbow mages around the boosters they can make. They open up interesting options for many nations, and give you access to almost all multi-path items and spells.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Your IQ is 2 above the average person!!!

Re: How to use Golems?
 

We really don't need that kind of ad hominem bull**** here. Either post something useful, or shut up.

Earth if a very powerful path on its own, so making the second boosters harder isn't unfair. Besides, you can get an earth booster without any earth magic at all, namely the staff of the elements, water/fire version.

And anyone who plays Ulm without a pretender that compensates for its lack of magic gets exactly what they deserve.

Edi

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Still, almost any path of magic is powerful on its own, and the others have access to multiple boosters [items]. In addition, all elements have an Elemental Staff that doesn't require that element. That isn't a good enough reason to not have another Earth booster [again, item].

And the fact that Ulm needs a certain type of a pretender might be unbalanced as well isn't good reason either, as Ulm is generally considered a weak nation. Improving Earth a little would be nice.


However, it should be remembered that Earth has the best combat booster. Water and Storm Power only work under certain circumstances, Phoenix Power gives 50% fire resistance, but Earth Power gives reinvigoration 4. That isn't as good as another booster item, but a boost nonetheless.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

When you talk about other boosters, what do you mean ?

In combat boosters ? as in phoenix power or ritual boosters like skull staffs ?

And I agree with Edi, if its a pointless insult, then piss off this forum.

Spiro

Re: How to use Golems?
 

He did say "above average." Is that really an insult?

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Reverend Zombie:

The way he aid that yes, it was, and it was a pointless comment which did not add anything to the discussion. That's why I don't see any problem in telling him to sod off. Doesn't help his case that he has only a half a dozen posts and zero actual contribution to this forum and community.

Like it or not, communities like this do form hierarchies, both official (staff and normal users) and unofficial (based on length of time as a member and amount of contribution) ones.

Frank has been around here for a far longer while than Bonvine has, and despite not having more than 123 posts as of this moment, those 123 posts have almost all been worthwhile reading and have contained discussion, arguments and observations.

Now Crazy Bonvine has been around for less than two weeks, and I've yet to see any worthwhile content in any of his posts. They've all save one been just waste of bandwidth, and more, annoying waste of bandwidth. He's already managed to give me the impression that whenever I see his user name on the forum, I can expect a post with no redeeming value whatsoever. With just 7 posts, that's a pretty impressive achievement.

The sort of trolling he did in this thread, digging up a comment from early on in the first page and just flinging an insult at Frank instead of any real reply, needs to be ruthlessly oppressed.

I don't know whether or not the mods will think me out of line for being this direct and hostile toward another member, and a new one at that, but I'm not in the habit of mollycoddling trolls. Which is all that Crazy Bonvine has so far indicated himself to be.

Edi

Re: How to use Golems?
 

i just got some use out of golems, and i was playing as ulm!
3x golems with main gauche, gold shield, horror helmet, jade armour lycan amulet and ring of the warrior and winged shoes with a golem cult dominion ( only patch 2.2 because non internet computer )was playing vrs mictain and tien chi on urgaia. i had cast forge of the ancients and earth blood deep well and used smiths (and a bit of my pretender) to forge these items, the smiths got a 75% forge bonus so gems didnt really matter then i sent these boys out hunting on mictain. huge slave armies couldnt touch them and just routed and then i took out a great mother earth with them. next i wana try them with a gate cleaver but i dont know if i could give up the awe ( even though with 130 health and 13 regen they were pretty sturdy )

Re: How to use Golems?
 

I like to give Golems a starshine skullcap over most any helmet.

Re: How to use Golems?
 

Edited the post. I talk just about item boosters before I recalled Earth Power, and didn't edit the first part of the post after adding the stuff about combat boosters. Good catch, thanks.

Edit:
And it seems I missed another page. Bad me. This was meant as a reply into Spriokeat's (sp?) post in the last page.