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-   -   A guide to buffing (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=24057)

quantum_mechani June 1st, 2005 09:06 PM

A guide to buffing
 
I have been thinking that a very important concept for new players to understand, but one that I'm not sure is spelled out anywhere, is 'buffing'. This is a strategy of taking powerful creature with magic (usually a pretender), and scripting it to cast several spells the make it more powerful in melee, before it charges into close combat. These are the kind of spells that experienced players often research first (within the first 2-10 turns depending on the research setting) and then send their pretender to take independent provinces by itself. The usual set of buffs means getting enchantment 1 and alteration 3, but many variations are possible.

Fire: It has two buffs spells, phoenix pyre and fire shield. Phoenix pyre is much to high in the research tree to use during expansion against independents, so for pretender design purposes does not have a lot of impact. Fire shield, on the other hand is very low research, and one of only two early buff spells for harming enemies that you do not have to directly attack. This drastically increases the rate at which you kill enemies, leading to reduced chance of dying and of picking up afflictions. It should also be noted that the damage inflicted by the spell goes up according to the amount of fire magic you have, making it especially important for fire bless pretenders.

Air: It has three buff spells, air shield, mirror image. Air shield is not one of the more important buffs, but if you are facing archers (particularly crossbowmen), and do not have enough buff spells researched to fill up your 5 script slots, it is worth casting. Mirror image can be highly useful, if you count on your luck you might get by with it as your only buff even (given high defense and air magic). It's priority is reduced if you have other defense buffs available, and not very high defense score (15 or less). Mistform remains highly useful no matter what your combatant setup.

Water: It has three buff spells, quickness, breath of winter, water shield. Quickness is one other the most useful buffs, providing +3 attack and defense, allows you to hit twice the number if enemies with your weapon, and giving you a better chance of casting the rest of your buffs before the enemy reaches you. Breath of winter is also very useful. Whether you need the spell depend much on your access to the fire shield spell. If you lack fire shield, you will almost always want to cast breath of winter (and if you posses fire shield, you will almost always want to cast that). If you have both though, the decision gets more complex. The most obvious factor is that a cold climate increases BoW dame, while a hot climate reduces it. Another factor is that BoW can damage friendly troops if they are present in the battle. BoW of winter can be cast underwater while fire shield cannot. There are in general more things that resist BoW than fire shield. The bottom line here is if you have both, you may want to change your script as you go, based on a large number of factors. Water shield rarely influences pretender design, but if you happen to be in a situation where you are fighting underwater, poses water magic and a have a free script slot by all means use it.

Earth: It has five buff spells, stoneskin, ironskin, iron will, summon earth power, and invulnerability. Ironskin is one of the more important buffs, though it diminishes in usefulness if you already have high natural protection. Stoneskin is simply an earlier research (and weaker) version of the above. Iron will is not particularly useful for expansion vs. independents, but it has a niche here and there when fighting other players. Summon earth power is mainly of use when you want to cast invulnerability, or have no access to life drain. It is not used so much in early expansion due to being in an obscure (buff wise) magic school. Invulnerability is also not much of an pretender expansion spell, due to being high research, but it is not without it's uses a bit later on.

Astral*: It has six buff spells, personal luck, body ethereal, resist magic, astral weapon, astral shield. Personal luck is highly useful, making a combatant much more durable. Body ethereal is even more useful in early game expansion, though it's value diminishes as the game proceeds. Resist magic is like iron will, not very useful when expanding, but has a niche later on. Astral weapon is worth a script slot when expanding if you have few paths other than astral, and is even more useful vs. certain opponents later on. Astral shield is all around a good choice no matter what stage of the game you are at.

Death: It has one buff spell, soul vortex: But that one is highly powerful. Too high of research to be used usually vs. independents, it nonetheless can be used devastating effect in the mid and later game

Nature: It has two buff spells, barkskin and personal regeneration. Barkskin is not very useful if you have more than 10 natural protection, or earth magic. If you don't though, and have nothing else to fill the script slot, go ahead and use it. Personal regeneration is much more useful, if you have nature magic and are not lifeless it is almost certainly worthy casting, both for longer lasting combat power and reduced afflictions. It should also be noted that the power increases with the amount of nature magic you have, so nature bless pretenders should particularly rush to this spell.

Blood: It has one buff spell, blood vengeance. Blood vengeance has a number of drawbacks, being extremely high research and requiring a method of supplying blood slaves (usually a flying scout or two). It certainly won't be used against early independents, and it is not really worth putting blood on your pretender for it (you can empower by the time the research is done). Still, it remains a potent late game weapon.

*A note on putting astral on pretenders. Many people will advise that you should not put astral less that 9 or so on your pretender, or risk eminent death from magic duel. The fact is though, there are many cases where you can get around this or lessen it's impact, and there are many positive aspects to make up for your trouble. The first way to take low astral and get away with it is an immortal, duelling will just slow you down, and the enemy is likely to permanently lose mages trying it. The next way is to take good early combatant, and make astral it's only path (like a wyrm), if it gets dueled, so be it. In the meantime it can cause a lot of damage. Third, design your pretender as usual, and if you go to war, keep it moving unpredictably with flying or stealth, and your enemy will waste lots of mage time trying to pin him down.

Wick June 1st, 2005 11:09 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
One thing that distinguishes Breath of Winter (and Soul Vortex) from Fireshield is that they are synergistic with Astral Shield or Eye Shields. The shield renders the attackers harmless while the aura disposes of them.

One buff that didn't make the list is Holy Avenger. It's a Holy 4 spell that does unspecified (as Smite?) damage to anyone that hurts the caster. I don't feel comfortable with it since it's only useful after you get hurt. It might combine well with Mistform but not with the Mirror Image and high defense that usually go with Mistform.

Truper June 2nd, 2005 12:22 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Nice work, QM.

I'll just add a couple of how-to examples. If you'd really like to see the power of buffing, try the following:

Play Caelum. Choose a Ghost King for your pretender. Give him 3-4 air, 3-4 earth, 1-2 water. Begin the game by researching Alteration 3. Once you reach it, position your GK at the back of the battle board, have him cast Quickness, Mistform, Ironskin, Mirror Image and attack closest. There are very few indy provinces that can stand up to this. If there are a lot of crossbows in the province, add Air Shield before or after Quickness. Caelum is a good nation to try this with since you get 120 design points from taking cold 3, and the ghosts your pretender occasionally spawns are more effective in the cold since they have a chill aura. Also, researching Alteration 3 gets you closer to Alteration 6, and the infamous False Horror spam - a topic for another tutorial http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If you'd prefer a less expensive and somewhat quicker-out-of-the-gate pretender, we can take a look at the Astral Wyrm QM mentioned: one of my favorite pretenders. Play most any nation. Slap a few astral on your Wyrm. I like 3. Research to Alteration 1. Position him fairly close to the front of the battle board, have him cast Personal Luck, and attack closest. This works against most anything except heavy cavalry or large numbers of crossbows. The Wyrm is a nice choice for this sort of pretender since he has regeneration, which reduces the chances of afflictions, and has 2 attacks per turn without needing quickness - and therefore without needing water magic. His attacks do a lot of damage since he has great strength, and are also very poisonous. Once you're out conquering, begin Researching enchantment. When you hit 2, you can add Astral Weapon to his script, and when you hit 3, add Astral Shield.

Chazar June 2nd, 2005 07:01 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
  • Ironskin: is the +3 bonus really worth casting for creatures already having more than 20 protection in total? Does it matter how this 20 points of protection are achieved (i.e. can the spell raise protection by more than 3 points despite already having a end-total of 20 due to other buffs, items, etc.)?
  • Mixed-mode-buffs:What about mixed path buffs? E.g.: I just discovered that my pretender could cast StrengthOfGaia (Conj4) and wonder whether it is a useful spell I did not notice before (I fear that its protection component will destroy my pretenders fire immunity)?
  • Area Buffs for Solos:Is it sensible to script area buffs like Strength of Giants for Solo-Fighters or is there always a better non-area spell at hand?
Sorry if some of this questions are stupid, but they just came to my mind without much thought when thinking about buffs...

Boron June 2nd, 2005 09:32 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Maybe we should only discuss based upon Zen's mods since almost nobody plays MP nowadays without these mods anymore.
There are now some important changes, like soul vortex is now so expensive that it is probably rarely used with a SC anymore. Then the GK is nerfed a bit, while other Chassis like the Father of Serpents are now better SCs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.

If you are so kind you could base your further posts solely upon Zen's mods and not upon vanilla, QM http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Endoperez June 2nd, 2005 09:46 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
If someone needs guide to buffing, they are new to multiplayer. That probably means they aren't yet playing with Zen's mods. Also, if someone has just arrived to this forum, they probably don't yet know about Zen's mods. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think people at Quarter to Three use Zen's mods much.

Oversway June 2nd, 2005 11:30 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 

Nicely written. I would mention that even if you don't have all of these spells, many items give the same effects, so take that into consideration.

Bummer_Duck June 2nd, 2005 12:12 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

Endoperez said:
If someone needs guide to buffing, they are new to multiplayer.

This was extremely helpful! I haven't used a mod, yet. Thanks all! QM and Truper especially. It's helping my race design and expansion strategies already.

PDF June 2nd, 2005 12:36 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
You didn't mention prec-increasing spells - Eagle Eye and Aim.
They're not strictly "buffs" for mass-murderers SCs, but are pretty useful for any mage or missile user.

sushiboat June 2nd, 2005 01:38 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
How much damage does BoW do? What about the inherent chill aura of some undead commanders?

quantum_mechani June 2nd, 2005 01:52 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

Chazar said:
  • Ironskin: is the +3 bonus really worth casting for creatures already having more than 20 protection in total? Does it matter how this 20 points of protection are achieved (i.e. can the spell raise protection by more than 3 points despite already having a end-total of 20 due to other buffs, items, etc.)?
  • Mixed-mode-buffs:What about mixed path buffs? E.g.: I just discovered that my pretender could cast StrengthOfGaia (Conj4) and wonder whether it is a useful spell I did not notice before (I fear that its protection component will destroy my pretenders fire immunity)?
  • Area Buffs for Solos:Is it sensible to script area buffs like Strength of Giants for Solo-Fighters or is there always a better non-area spell at hand?
Sorry if some of this questions are stupid, but they just came to my mind without much thought when thinking about buffs...

Ironskin past 20 prot is another of those that is likely worth it if you have a free slot, but there are higher priority things. Strength of gaia is certainly often useful. Particularly underwater where you don't have to worry very much about fire. Strength of giants is iffy, but again, with nothing else to fill the slot you might consider it.

I consider this topic mostly mod-neutral, the only changed buff I can think of is soul vortex, and what I said about it still applies.

As for buffs/semi-buffs I missed (holy avenger, eagle eyes, aim), they do not for the most part fit into super combatant strategies, which is what I'm trying to clear up. Also note that I did not say anything about the various elemental resistance spells, it is fairly obvious that you should use them if you expect to face that kind of magic.

The chill aura is fatigue damage only. I do not know the exact damage of BoW, but as a rough guide, in a cold climate it might kill a 10HP troop in one turn, in warmer climate they could survive maybe three or so turns.

FrankTrollman June 2nd, 2005 02:10 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
I would like to point out that I personally play multiplayer without Zen's Mods. I agree and disagree with Zen's choices and rebalances in roughly equal measure, thereby making the addition of that mod a complete waste of time on my part.

-Frank

ioticus June 2nd, 2005 02:27 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

FrankTrollman said:
I would like to point out that I personally play multiplayer without Zen's Mods. I agree and disagree with Zen's choices and rebalances in roughly equal measure, thereby making the addition of that mod a complete waste of time on my part.

-Frank

I would guess most people are in the same boat. Why on earth he increased the power of the Vine Ogre, for example, is beyond me.

Reverend Zombie June 2nd, 2005 04:35 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

FrankTrollman said:
I would like to point out that I personally play multiplayer without Zen's Mods. I agree and disagree with Zen's choices and rebalances in roughly equal measure, thereby making the addition of that mod a complete waste of time on my part.

-Frank

It is perhaps time, then, for a Frank's Zen's Conceptual Rebalance Rebalance Mod.

The Panther June 2nd, 2005 05:53 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

Truper said:
If you'd prefer a less expensive and somewhat quicker-out-of-the-gate pretender, we can take a look at the Astral Wyrm QM mentioned: one of my favorite pretenders. Play most any nation. Slap a few astral on your Wyrm. I like 3. Research to Alteration 1. Position him fairly close to the front of the battle board, have him cast Personal Luck, and attack closest. This works against most anything except heavy cavalry or large numbers of crossbows. The Wyrm is a nice choice for this sort of pretender since he has regeneration, which reduces the chances of afflictions, and has 2 attacks per turn without needing quickness - and therefore without needing water magic. His attacks do a lot of damage since he has great strength, and are also very poisonous. Once you're out conquering, begin Researching enchantment. When you hit 2, you can add Astral Weapon to his script, and when you hit 3, add Astral Shield.

Hey! Did you steal this from me?

I must agree that the astral wyrm is extremely powerful, most especially with Broken Empire Ermor (who has the national spell 'Body Etheral' which gives mundane troops only a 25% chance of actually hitting your wyrm). My son discovered this in the first King of the Hill battle. You do not need anything else to use this beast attacking blind on Turn 1 against 9 level indies! For other nations, the alteration 1 research and personal luck is necessary against 9 level indies.

I would only quibble with one thing here, you need to go to Astral 4 on your wyrm if at all possible, for this allows your sacred mages to get an additional point of magic resistance when blessed. It also helps a lot with the dueling later on.

Truper June 2nd, 2005 06:52 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

The Panther said:
Hey! Did you steal this from me?

Not unless you've been playing since Dom1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Actually, I stole it from Alex Poger from some discussions on usenet years ago.

Quote:

I would only quibble with one thing here, you need to go to Astral 4 on your wyrm if at all possible, for this allows your sacred mages to get an additional point of magic resistance when blessed. It also helps a lot with the dueling later on.

The reason I often end up with only Astral 3 is that moving from 3 to 4 costs 32 points - nearly enough for a scale. I don't think a single point of MR is worth all that much - if you even have sacred mages. Astral 4 would help with dueling, but not enough to matter that much, unless you are in a position to provide communicants. One of the main attractions of the Astral Wyrm is that he's cheap, as well as effective. He's also a nice way to get into the water, which is otherwise tough to do early - especially if you can forge him a Horror Helmet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

quantum_mechani June 2nd, 2005 07:38 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

ioticus said:
Quote:

FrankTrollman said:
I would like to point out that I personally play multiplayer without Zen's Mods. I agree and disagree with Zen's choices and rebalances in roughly equal measure, thereby making the addition of that mod a complete waste of time on my part.

-Frank

I would guess most people are in the same boat. Why on earth he increased the power of the Vine Ogre, for example, is beyond me.

I would say everyone seems to be in thier own boat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Among multiplayers I would say most enjoy the pretender mod, the other mods vary in popularity.

As for the vine ogres, the changes were for thematic, rather than balance reasons. And with the improvement of other ways of spending nature gems, they are probably used less than in the base game.

WraithLord June 3rd, 2005 05:29 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

Truper said:
...
Astral 4 would help with dueling, but not enough to matter that much, unless you are in a position to provide communicants.

AFAIK for the purpose of magic duel only the base astral level counts. Empowering through items or communion doesn't count.

Chazar June 3rd, 2005 05:31 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
I would use Zen's mod more often if there would only be an updated version of Zen's Quick Reference Guides for summons and items...I wonder why Zen is incompatible with himself? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Alneyan June 3rd, 2005 05:47 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Empowerment proper does work, as it raises the basic level, but I believe it is what you meant. Everything else will be void.

I believe the Banner of the Northern Star might work too, as one of my mages survived a lot of Magic Duels with this item in hand, and +6 in base astral; he could have been very lucky though. On the other hand, a +5 mage with the Banner and Power of the Spheres will get killed very quickly.

Graeme Dice June 8th, 2005 02:43 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

ioticus said:
I would guess most people are in the same boat. Why on earth he increased the power of the Vine Ogre, for example, is beyond me.

He did that because they are usable only as meat shields, and not particularly effective ones in the standard game. A high protection unit with a charcoal shield can kill dozens to hundreds of vine ogres without suffering for it at all.

PDF June 8th, 2005 08:50 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

Graeme Dice said:
Quote:

ioticus said:
I would guess most people are in the same boat. Why on earth he increased the power of the Vine Ogre, for example, is beyond me.

He did that because they are usable only as meat shields, and not particularly effective ones in the standard game. A high protection unit with a charcoal shield can kill dozens to hundreds of vine ogres without suffering for it at all.

That's a weird rationale : using VO as meat shield is a means to allow other, hard-hitting units (mages mostly) to slaughter the enemies caught in the VO mass.
And vanilla VO are already unbeatable in terms of cost effectiveness...
And tell me how any non-lifeless unit can stand hundreds of VO without succumbing to fatigue.

Oversway June 8th, 2005 10:15 AM

Re: A guide to buffing
 

Reinvigoration?

But I agree that VO are fine in their role as just meat shields...

The Panther June 8th, 2005 04:49 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
One of the reasons VOs work so well as meat shields is the 50 Morale. They fight to the death every time, which makes them far better than they really are.

They also have so many HPs that they are difficult to kill with Murdering Winter and Fire Storm. And they take a while to die under Wraithful Skies.

It is probably the Ivy King which makes them unbalanced, as level 3 Nature mages are quite good even without getting 4 VOs for 1 gem while waiting for a war or battle to begin!

Don't forget that the Thug with the Charcoal Shield will be quickly killed by enemy mage spells while he is trying to fight through all the VOs to get at the mage snug in the back with his Staff of Storms.

Graeme Dice June 8th, 2005 09:50 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
Quote:

PDF said:
And tell me how any non-lifeless unit can stand hundreds of VO without succumbing to fatigue.

It only needs to be able to last long enough to have the vine ogres kill themselves on the fire shield. Just about anything with protection over 20 can do it.

ds841 June 10th, 2005 11:27 PM

Re: A guide to buffing
 
I just wanted to add my thanks to QM for this guide. I only play against the computer and I did not realize that you could set five scripts for your commanders.

Thanks again QM for an awsome guide!


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