OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Hey all you know I've been pondering over this for a while especially after playing such games as Warhammer and reading the fluff behind that and even a lot of other sci-fi and fantasy stories.

Anyway my question is this, if humans are faced with such horrible monsterous aliens like those in the Warhammer world would our minds even be able to handle it or would we crumble in fear?

I mean in for example Warhammer 40k where we see such threats as Chaos and Tyranid hordes would humans be able to take up arms and fight valiantly like the Imperial Guard or would we simply break down mentally at such a sight?

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

My limited experience with fighting / combat is that some people will go to a "different place" when in a pretty tough situation by putting off their emotions (and paying for it in the long run with delayed stress issues...that sucks). Others just go to peices or react poorly (like acting agressive towards the people with guns). Funny thing is that you pretty much can’t tell who will do what until they are in it up to their necks, either.

I guess what I'm saying is that you'd see a lot of "chaos" at first when people are reacting with blind panic and fear, and then as people get familiar with the terror / mosters / whatever, they will deal with them better as they understand their enemy better and adjust to the new situation.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

We adapt, we inpervise, we over come, it is out nature to do so.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

well, some of us adapt and overcome. as EC put it, lots of people dont, and theres no way to tell which of us will cave in under pressure, until you start shooting at us.

now, staying focused in combat is alot different that trying to wrap your mind around things "that man was not meant to know"

for a good exploration of this, check out the works of H.P. Lovecraft and also Robert W. Chambers.

From _The Call of Cthulhu_:
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live in a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

also (as silly as their fiction is) look at how human society adapted in the world of 40K. its a new dark age, filled with religious superstition, paranoia, and fear. the empire rules with an iron fist, and people live in the shadow of the inqusition. sure, thats one way to adapt and overcome. but its also a way to crumble and fall in the face of our own fears and shortcomings. Space Marines can stand in the face of Chaos and fight back, but at what price? they live for combat, and are brainwashed killing machines. hardly human, in the traditional sense.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Those who do not adapt; die.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Well Puke I actually like the Warhammer 40k universe fiction wise because it takes humanity to a point where we would probobly not recognize ourselves anymore if we saw them and we could not imagine that far in the future much less how technology would interact with us.

And a funny thing about that is if the Emperor had never been wounded humanity would probobly still be advancing and "enlightened" in the modern sense of the word where they see technology as just that technology and not as some mystic power of the gods. Also we can be pretty sure that the Empire would be ever expanding and not sitting stagnant like it is in their present.

There are rumors even that Games Workshop will eventually "kill" the Emperor and have him reborn into a "good" version of the Chaos gods and we'll see brand new things coming for the Imperium, I hope so personally because I like my IG forces and I'd love to get to add cool new tech http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But anyway I've always been amazed at how in most sci-fi humans are just like "meh aliens" or "meh evil insectoids" and pretty much just pick up a gun or build a warship and march out to fight them like it was other humans and no big deal. And the huamn race overall doesn't change much and the government is usually still a "good guy" like the Federation from star trek.

That's in a lot of ways why I chose to write the Icaran story, where Humans don't just go "meh aliens" they are terrified to the point where they make it almost religious dogma that aliens are "unpure" and reduce them to the level of "animals" almost and declare war on them wholesale for the simple purpose of making sure they are never a threat to the human race. I wonder which way humans will really go when we actually step out there and find someone or something else.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

seems that the ability to cope would vary inversely with the open-ness of the society in question - imagine today's modern world confronted with one of the beasts you listed... the media would be all over it and panic would ensue. In a iron-fisted dictatorship where information can be controlled and the population brainwashed to an extent, it seems that the motivation to fight a superior foe could be achieved (there are probably instances in history where this has happened...)

just my $0.02(US)

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Personally, I think we could get used to anything.

Nuclear annihilation (I don't know if it's spelt right. An online dictionary said it was. Don't look at me) hangs over our heads every second, but people have adapted.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Its not a question of whether or not "we" would do anything. Nothing has been found yet which is able to get the human race to react as a "we". No matter what it is; most will fail, a large number will adapt into it, and a small number will fight it quite effectively.

Gandalf Parker

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

well-put.

~T~

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Well hopefully by time we met any hostile aliens or daemons from hell walk the universe we'd be at least a somewhat unified race because if not we probobly would not even have to worry about adapting as we'd be slaughtered wholesale in short order.

But I suppose you guys all bring up a good point after a while of terror we'd probobly adapt and learn to fight back should we ever have to.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

The first and hardest mental obstacle would be cynicism. Humans have a remarkable capacity for it, and most people really would have to see the spaceship land with their own eyes before they accepted that it was an actual alien rather than a practical joke/ hallucination.

However, once you're past that, I think the human mind is pretty robust. You'd need a genuine Outside Context Problem to break it, and they seem to be pretty rare events.

The thing is, a true OCP has to be beyond not only human experience but also human imagination, which has come up with all kinds of crazy crap over the years. It certainly seems to have explored every tiny possibility allowed for by known science, as well as a load of stuff that isn't.

For example, an advanced alien race invading Earth would not be an OCP. We've never encountered such an event, but even those who don't believe an alien invasion is ever possible are at least familiar with the concept, thanks largely to H G Wells in 1898.

In other words, even if some huge, slavering, unspeakable inter-dimensional cyber-hell-beast uglier that Geiger's worst nightmare was to materialise in Hyde Park tomorrow and start turning people inside-out with inverto beams issued from its uncountable nameless orifices, people would still have a mental category to put it in, because they've seen 'Alien' and they've seen 'Mars Attacks'. Sure, they've never seen anything exactly like this before and they wouldn't know what the thing was, or how its technology or biology worked, or how it had got here or why, but the details are irrelevant. Once their cynicism has been inverted along with Granny and the family dog they would be able to instantly recognise it as a "scary-*** alien monster bastard with some kind of advanced technology". With the phenomenon safely pigeonholed, they only have to survive long enough to get over the initial shock and then their minds will be ready to start reacting to the situation in character. For some people that will mean picking up a gun, for others negotiation, for others runnning away and hiding. I'll leave you to argue which would be the best course of action in that particular situation.

Of course, the real problem is that we have no way of knowing whether or not there really is anything out there beyond human imagination, and we never will, because there's no way of knowing how much you don't know. An OCP is, by definition, impossible to predict or even conceive of before it happens except in the very vaguest of terms.

--

Ag! AG! Agag! AgAGAagaAG!

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Ah finally. I visit 2 Forums this one and a GW forum (Warseer) so now I get to talk about my other hobby http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. First, the Emperor will never die completely as that would ruin the whole setting. As for being able to stand up against the nids I have one word, Commisars. One of the main ideas of command (at least in some circles) is to fear your officers more than the enemy. So it's a case of fighting the Tyranids or to use secret 40K talk, being found wanting.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

So in essence what your saying is, give humans enough time and we'd get over the "OH MY GOD WHAT IS IT" and get our minds into our typical "Man we can blow it to hell" mentality? rather interesting point of view but probobly rather accurate as well, as far as a monster like that I'd have to place that in the blow it to hell catagory lol negotiations are irrelevent and for the weak http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Randalow actually like I said I've read rumors that GW plans to kill the Emperor off and make him a "good" sort of "Chaos god" which would not make the galaxy any less grim and depressing but it WOULD add some cool new stuff as we may get to see the Empire back on the attack for a change.

As far as the 'Nids well I've read fluff where it mentions "entire regiments" breaking and heading for the hills at the mere sight of 'Nids, Commisars or not so I guess it's just a matter of faith in their "god-emperor" and their courage to protect mankind. But then again they've also had 30,000 years to get used to the idea of hideous monsters that want nothing more then to kill you in a brutal violent and probobly gory way.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

The real question is would they be able to cope with Human? A race that has produced a wide spectrum of people from fantastic saints to unimaginable monsters.

Would we not be equal strange to them?

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Dogscoff: True, people may know a rather large number of strange concepts, but that doesn't mean the're ready for them - And in any case, a cyber-hell-beast would definitly fit into the 'civilization changing' catagory.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Well civilization changing yes but for good or ill would be the question, afterall seeing a cyber hell beast would make some governments take advantage of the situation and turn into something rather IoM like, hell look at what a little terrorism has done to America imagine if we saw a cyber hell beast heh.

(note) I am NOT saying america has turned into an evil dictatorship but we have definately brought in a lot of new laws that never would have been considered pre-9/11 and GWB has certainly begun having the Federal government butt it's nose in on state government more then most other presidents.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Note: I'm not saying it either...

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

I'm not gonna say it either.

But I am thinking it.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Is that a black helicopter hovering over the forum? I'm sure it wasn't there yesterday.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Nope. It is just a bomb, really. A big one.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Have you ever traveled abroad? There are a lot of not so nice places around, and these types of rules are more common around the world than our relatively permissive ones.

I believe that the country has been remarkably tame in their response. Think about the very draconian rules and regulations imposed on the states during the WWII timeframe. Granted, this is not a world-encompassing war, but the terrorists are a credible threat as evidenced by two attacks in the US (Trade center I and II, and several foiled additional attacks).

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

In a country where xx(very high) percent don't even have a passport the answer is almost always no.

Hell most Americans don't even know what street Europe is on

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

And as I've said before, the US-Mexican war started when a certain US general said 'Hey, let's go attack Canada' and marched his troops east.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

LOL sorry Narf that's hilarious it really is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But anyway yes compared to most countries around the world the US is tame and often I think a little too tame, in the end America is generally a fat happy child who's citizens are spoiled and who's citizens ***** and moan at the slightest tax increase or at the slightest change in laws and yet they do nothing to actively try and participate in law except to do stupid protests that they know won't effect squat in the world.

In many ways America has lost it's strenght of will and it's resolve because we are too decadent and have too easy a lifestyle I mean damn I get sick of hearing 15 and 16 year olds who openly admit they are cheating in their schools because it's so easy, and yet they pass because no one bothers punishing them so they are quite stupid and I DO MEAN STUPID no polite way around it they think they are so clever but they're dumb as bricks and when they grow up and can't cheat on everything they do they'll end up being unproductive losers.

I think sometimes this country could use a kick in the *** to get back some of that iron will we used to be famous for.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Keh? Famed American iron will.... Unless your talking about a bloke named William whos actually made of iron I have no idea what your talking about.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Study history http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif America used to be a nation of hard workers and people who beleived we could overcome anything and take on anyone no matter what and we did it in a good way, these days we piss and whine and have protests EVEN WHEN WE WERE GOING INTO A "RIGHT" War!


But anyway El_Phil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Now back on to subject I wonder how many of us would even be able to handle a true "space age" era Humanity, and how much we would all either be overjoyed/overwhelmed or just plain freaked out.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Hm, you have to remember, that, like in the case of 40k, Religion is a HUGE psychological boost. If every religion were to claim that said aliens were either Pure or Unpure would determine the majority of the populaces reaction. So... meh... Hopefully us humans will have talismans by then though! *pulls a luke skywalker on a tyranid spore ship*

pwnage.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

When exactly was this hard worker and belief in overcoming stuff a national trait?

Now of course there are millions of yanks who that did/does apply to, but it was never a famous national trait. If you'd ask a person to name a US national trait it might be 'epicly fat', 'has no taste in trousers' or 'drinks awful beer' something like that. Just as the French would be 'arrogant' or 'bad at fighting wars'.

Of course these are broad and entirely unfair stereotypes, but that's the whole point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

El_Phil I was trying to get off the politics that's why I changed subjects learn to let it go especially since it's only this generation that is "epicly fat" as a national trait and boy howdy is that true lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Anyway thanks for all your answers folks it was really helpful.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Helpful hint #42: If you want to get off a point the best way is not to mention it. Strange but true.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

During the Napoleonic era, the french army was one of the best in the world.

Present-day opinions are not nessasarily today's truth's and rarely apply in history.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Yet still they lost. Of course I'm biased, should I offer the French more than grudging and heavily qualified respect I may well have my Englishness revoked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

It is very easy actually: the worse the odds are for France, the better they do. Look: in 1805, we were fighting several countries and won, while in the later stages of the war, we failed to slaughter those silly folks from Albion who barely knew what end of a sword was used for business and... I mean, our most friendly neighbours from England. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Similarly, France did well in the Hundred's Year Wars, especially after the Treaty of Troyes which left France in a very weak situation (1420 or so), and the discovery of Cannon resulted in the English tide receding. On the other hand, despite having more well-fed troops with better equipment fighting on our soil, we still managed to lose at Azincourt. Don't ask. Really, don't.

And the story goes on: we successfully fought after the Revolution against all our neighbours, but failed to quench the uprisings in the Low Countries (England didn't do well there either), and... Well, add more examples as appropriate. The bottom line is: if you want to rely on the French, make sure the odds are plain awful.

Of course, it's not as if you can actually win most wars: Napoleon may have lost at the end of the day, but Europe was pretty much the same as in 1800 once the wars were over. The only point seems to be to weaken the enemy... problem is, you will get weaker yourself in the process, preventing you from achieving much, and bringing you on par with the enemy... so another war can be started, to weaken the enemy, and...

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Years ago I read a report on the percentages of a given population that could be expected to resist occupation by a superior military force. Based on WWII up to the war in SE Asia, the numbers were quite small. 3 to 5% for industrialized urban populations. 8 to 12 % for rural industrialized populations. Non industrial populations tended to be pegged to the system of government and there was an index for this. But I don’t remember many of the details. Communists had a higher level of resistance than democracies. Dictatorships had the lowest levels of resistance. Of note is the mention of religious fanatics being seen as an anomaly. The paper was written in the early to mid 70’s. I think that the religious fanatics would be seen as something more than an anomaly today.

IMHO, I think that the numbers would hold true for industrialized populations today. But actual results would rapidly influence the numbers after initial contact. As would the treatment by the invading aliens. If we were to be incorporated into a greater whole that included basic civil rights and freedoms, then resistance would be less. But faced with a situation where we could not win and were about to become a protein source for some nasty aliens, resistance would be greater. Faced with being food or forced manual labor, I would hope that we would have the balls to launch every nuke we had. Leaving them with an inedible pile of glow in the dark ash and a world rapidly descending into nuclear winter. Perhaps the loss of this conquest would throw a monkey wrench into their plans for moving onto their next conquest.

As a whole, people don’t cope; the majority will just try to survive for another day. Look at what the Nazis did during WWII. By 44 the Jews knew what awaited them in the camps, but they went anyway. Sure a few resisted, but less than 10%. It’s not so much a question of coping. Faced with dieing right now, or dieing next week, most people will choose next week and hope for some improvement of their situation to occur.

This brings us to a question. How would you remove 3 billion + humans from the earth? If you wanted to eat us, I would think that it would be a long process. More likely, you would want to just get rid of us and take the planet. Or perhaps make slaves of us and put us to work. If you wanted to take the planet more or less as is, you could kill us with some type of virus, but then you have a bunch of rotting remains to clean up. To invade would be risky, and would take a lot of space lift capability even with superior weapons. I would think that a long term approach would be the most economical. Kill us off with a germ and once we were dead send in an advanced force to care take the infrastructure. Secure the nuclear power plants, get rid of the weapons with limited shelf life. Mothball the chemical plants and such. Then when the stink of rotting flesh is gone, move in as the new owners. With germ warfare, there is a good chance that we would never realize what was actually happening, and would not take steps to make the planet unlivable. To make slaves of humans would be a long drawn out process. As a species we are probably far too adaptable and intelligent. We would adapt to the alien technology and turn it against our masters at some time in the future.

This brings us to another question. Why would an intergalactic civilization want to invade us? What does earth have that they couldn’t get for less effort elsewhere? If they had need of a planet just like this one, then perhaps that would be a reason. But let’s be realistic. In all probability, they would need to sterilize the planet before they could live freely on it. Everything here would be alien to them. The common cold could be a plague for them. Basic earth carbon based life would probably be incompatible with their biology. Perhaps they would just want to incorporate us into their system of government/empire, but why bother? We are a violent species, and would more of a problem than it was worth.

And this brings us to a what if. I would assume that an intergalactic war would be somewhat like WWII in the pacific, but on a larger scale. The opposing forces would be faced with the need to planet hop their way to the heart of the other empire. Setting up points of supply along the way. What if we found ourselves between two more advanced civilizations that were at war? They know we are here. They know we have an industrial base. But they see us primitives of little value. Would they see us as a valuable resource? A possible ally in their war. Or would they just wipe us out to prevent the other side from making use of us. Send us a little note; “Sorry, but because of your strategic location we have no choice but to drop a big rock on your little planet”.

And this brings me to one more what if. What if we are so far off in the boonies of the universe that none of the advanced aliens have found us yet? What will happen when that first alien explorer comes within range of our electronic emissions? I would hope that the first thing they translate is not rap music! I would also hope that the first people they contacted were not lawyers or politicians. I would also hope that the aliens were not Klingons or Shadows[sic]

And this brings us to the big questions. If the major world governments found out that there were advanced aliens out there, would they tell us? What would the impact of telling us be? What would people do if they found out that their god was just an advanced alien who on a whim decided to mess with some primitives? What if SETI found a signal? Who would decide if we would reply and what we would say?

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Fascinating read. On the first of those questions I'm not sure it would be the goverments choice. Everything leaks, nothing is kept secret anymore. The number of people who would know would be large and one of them would spill the beans. If anyone believed them is of course a different question.

Religous types would carry on as usual and dismiss the aliens 'claims' to being their god as nothing more than devils/evil spirit/etc claims to tempt them.

If it was proved aliens existed and were coming I'd expect unruly mobs and riots. I have no idea why I think this I just do. That and a few "I would like to be the first to welcome our new alien overlords."

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

The human mind is quite flexible and is able to adapt to new situations. We'll even adapt to outside context problems after the initial shock and surprise has worn off. Young children experience new things completely unfamiliar to them all the time while they grow up and they learn and cope with new situations; adults can do so too.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Uh speaking as one of those "Religious Types" that you mention I would not assume it was devils or any crap like that so please don't act like we are all dumbasses that would go "oooh it's the devil" if anything I'd just say "Oh please get over your ego" to an alien that said "I am your god" ala Jack O'Niel http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Well actually the less religious or the cultists would be more likely to beleive the god/devil crap because they are pretty frail minded already as has been shown by cults like the Branch Dividians or however that's spelled and the Raelians (sp) who think "Elohim" is plural and describes an alien species when in fact Elohim means something like "God of Light" and is singuluar in hebrew lol.

As far as why we would be valuable well precisely BECAUSE we are a violent species that is used to making war, let's face it if you're an inter galactic Empire humans would be an excellent source for a cheap-effective pool of soldiers give us an advanced rifle some body armor and a way to get somewhere and we would kick *** for you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As has been done by Empires throughout history when they either hire mercs or recruit specialized regional forces, if some Intergalactic Empire came by Earth and told us "Hey your now part of our empire" if they treat humans well and give us basic rights and the ability to leave our home planet I doubt they'd have much problems getting human soldiers into their military, and after a generation or so Humans would probobly be used to working with aliens and I'm sure we'd see all human units fighting on alien worlds for our new Empire.

Let's face it Humans don't much care what we are fighting if we are fighting for what we see as right, and if an Intergalactic Empire that was a decent lot and nice to us we'd probobly have no problem as a species becoming part of their Empire-unless we are considered food/expendable/inferior- in which case we'd probobly turn around and attack them hehe.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

everyone keeps saying that humans are remarkably resilient and have a good ability to adapt to new situations, but really, we don't have any benchmarks to compare the human race to, making it hard to describe any defining characteristics of the human race. Perhaps our adaptability, or some other trait that seems unremarkable to us would be a useful resource for an alien species, or perhaps humans are a thoroughly dull and useless race... at any rate, I'd imagine that it would be a lot easier and more effective for alien civilizations to simply establish trading bases on earth and use it as a resupply area than to wipe out the entire planet and start over. When you consider hideous invading alien monster-race, it's hard to imagine a good motivation for wanting to destroy the earth.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

@El_Phil: I am well aware of the difference between an alien and a demon.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Meh I'll post the more polite version- craps and giggles- http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Seriously though the reasons you would invade Earth could by myriad afterall we humans don't often have reasons for attacking one another look at WWII and Nam did Hitler have a good reason for starting WWII other then he was an ***........no did we have a good reason to go to Nam........uh not really unless you listen to the line about "Communists outnumber us and we have to limit that" but they still outnumber us anyway and the idiot politicians ran the war and screwed it up lol (AND NO FREAKIN comments about "Don't Forget Bush" because that's damn irritating people act like he did it alone heh when in fact the president can't take a crap without a hundred people giving permission lol)

Anyway it is easy to note the abilities of the human race afterall we are HUMAN and we watch our own history just study history and you'll found out humans are adaptable and resiliant and able to cope with a LOT of things that we never thought we'd be able to until the situation hits us http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Yes they would have, and they were. There have been numerous forms of "sedition acts" and "patriot acts" passed at various points in US history. During the early years, during every large war, and some other random times. We sure are a paranoid lot... The bombings of 9/11 are just more in a long series of unrelated trigger events.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

From a 1930’s German point of view, Hitler had a very good reason for going to war. He had restored the German economy with a massive military build up. People were working to build munitions; they in turn spent their income on consumer goods. The excess labor pool was absorbed by the military to fill out the ranks. Problem was that it was all being financed with red ink in the books. Hitler went to war to secure a means of balancing his books. Quick gains were to come from looting the conquered states. Long term gains were to come from the increase in land under till by German farmers as they moved into the newly acquired land. Remember, in the 1930’s farming was the foundation of every advanced state. Farming created the basic wealth and funneled it into the rest of the economy. The average worker spent 1/3 of his income on food. Wouldn’t today’s farmers like to see a return to the model of the 30’s and 40’s?

Japan went to war to secure resources and land as did Italy.

The war in SE Asia was different. First, it was to contain communist expansion. Second it was to make sure that we had access to oil in the South China Sea. Arab oil might not have been available had the cold war gone hot. It was far to close to the Soviets, who could get there by land. And it has to pass through several choke points during transit to the US. Also our main ally in the area at that time was located on the border with the USSR and would have been at great risk, the rest of the region was not happy about our support of Israel and were already, or about to be Soviet client states. Thinking of the time was that it would much easier to keep the Soviets out of the SC Sea than it would be to keep them out of the Middle East. After all, the Pacific was still thought of as an American Lake back then. Take a look at the time line and notice the draw down of American troops and the start of North Slope oil production. And while the US had plenty of oil that could be had close to home back then, our allies did not. To this day the lion’s share of North Slope oil goes to Japan.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

If I encountered some sort of strange and powerful creature that is completely unfamiliar to us, I would think it's an alien rather than a demon.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

You cant make a broad generalisation without someone taking it personally. What is the world coming to?

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

It's not really going anywhere. It's going round and round in a circle.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

What about an oval? Maybe a octagon, stop being so specific.

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

AHEM the French army yes..... but just look at the amount of foreign recruits..... and what nationality was its leader? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

*****

If SETI were to receive a signal, the world governments (i.e. the US government which thinks is the world government) would immediately shut down the program and start arming for war.

If an alien landed in Hyde Park, there'd be a crowd of media people around it within hours. It would probably get so freaked out (just think how much a TV camera looks like a rocket launcher or an energy weapon if you don't know what it is, and then there are the helicopters.....) it would either get back in its spaceship and take off again, returning some days later with a battle fleet, or it would attack the crowd, get fired on by the military, take off in its space ship and return some time later with a battle fleet. Either way, we lose. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

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In an entirely unrelated matter, I've just noticed SETI hasn't sent me a new data package for at least three days.....

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Actually, in that era the French army was almost exclusively French. And the population of France was almost 1/3rd of the total population of Europe at that time, so they could field huge armies relative to any other European state. Sheer numbers had a lot to do with their successes. But Napoleon himself was Corsican, yes... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: A question about the Human Ability to Cope
 

Sheer numbers indeed. With enough bodies to throw into the breach, you could win if you were centuries behind in technology respective to your enemy. Also, I believe that the main reason the French conquered Europe lies in the army's leadership. Non-French leadership.

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Hey, it also seems like SETI's site is gone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif