The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

I have posted my new race in the Mod forum. It is the "Rage Collective", a highly aggressive race of war machines that will hopefully give you a good run for your money.

They are intended to come across as a mix of Berserkers and the Borg with a bad attitude. So far, they have done quite well against other AI races, and should pose a bit of a challenge to a human.

For extra entertainment, try proposing trades and making demands of them. Their responses can be... interesting.

Please check them out and let me know what you think.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Berserkers like the old AI warships in that series of books by Fred Saberhagen?

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Very very nice!
The Rage have a good sense of humour in their speech and from a short game with maximum technology I got the impression that they do quite well.
Good work and thank you very much!

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
Very very nice!
The Rage have a good sense of humour in their speech and from a short game with maximum technology I got the impression that they do quite well.
Good work and thank you very much!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why, thank you. Please let me know how they perform in the long term.

Gee, this is almost like watching your child grow up and go out into the real world. You can't wait to see how he does out there on his own!

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

I understand your feelings Alpha.
After about 5 years of game the Rage still do well. Just one weakness I found until now: You gave them two designs for attack ships, one of them with a maximum size of a destroyer. In the later game or as in my case with full technology these destroyers are to weak compared to larger ships. Because of the limited space they do e.g. not have a combat sensor. I understand that you wanted large fleets of small ships, but destroyers are to small.
At the moment they are at war with almost every other empire but especially they are in a fierce combat with the Earth Alliance. They destroyed several of their colonies, however the Earth Alliance took revenge and burned some of the Rage planets.
The speech of the Rage is really great. I had quite a few laughs.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
I understand your feelings Alpha.
After about 5 years of game the Rage still do well. Just one weakness I found until now: You gave them two designs for attack ships, one of them with a maximum size of a destroyer. In the later game or as in my case with full technology these destroyers are to weak compared to larger ships. Because of the limited space they do e.g. not have a combat sensor. I understand that you wanted large fleets of small ships, but destroyers are to small.
At the moment they are at war with almost every other empire but especially they are in a fierce combat with the Earth Alliance. They destroyed several of their colonies, however the Earth Alliance took revenge and burned some of the Rage planets.
The speech of the Rage is really great. I had quite a few laughs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The bit with the destroyers is an unexpected side effect. My actual desire was to get a small change in design philosophy when the size went from destroyer to light cruiser. I didn't realize that it would continue to build the destroyer size ships. Oops!

Once they have been out a little longer I will put out a fix. This is just like any other software development process. As soon as I get it out the door, its time for a patch! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Shouldn't a machine race be emotionless and be free from plagues?

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Emperor Zodd:
Shouldn't a machine race be emotionless and be free from plagues?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, there is a pseudo-science reason they are not and a real reason they are not.

The pseudo-science reason for the emotions is listed in the race description: their processing systems are organic, so over time they developed emotions (or, you could think of Data's emotion chip from Star Trek being taken a step too far), and I suppose that you could say that the organic nature of the processors also leaves them vulnerable to plagues.

The real reason is that I wanted this race to be as competitive as possible. My concept for doing this was a race with propulsion expert and advanced storage characteristics. That didn't leave me with racial points for emotionless. Besides, the speech file would have been far less fun if they had no emotions. The real reason I chose to make them machines was that I could only figure out how to make a race portrait that looked pretty much like the ships, which made them pretty much machines themselves. Of course, once I made the decision to make them machines, the Berserker reference came to mind and I just had to magnify their aggressiveness.

Buy into the pseudo-science, and I think you will find this an interesting race to play against.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jc173:
Berserkers like the old AI warships in that series of books by Fred Saberhagen?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, purely from an attitude standpoint. The philosophy of this race is pretty much, "If it is alive, it shouldn't be."

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

So far I have enjoyed this race as a worthy addition to the modpack... the only issue I really noticed has already been addressed (the destroyers being too weak for a long game)... but as a first time offering - good job http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Jason2

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Hi Kodiak,

I´m in the first half in a game with three AI races against me. I´ve used 3000 racepoints and used the Sergetti3000, the Xichung3000 anf the Rage 3000. I´m second, the Rage are first, then the Sergetti and the Xi chung. I´m using Modpack 1.61, God Emperors Research mod ( very good, btw. ), a AI friendly system ( withhout black holes ) and a slightly modded components file ( only some adjustions , no new tech ) and get my *** kicked by the rage.

I´ve seen two Rage fleets, one with fourteen and one with twentyone ships. The first killed my Borderdefense fleet, and the second killed two of my systems and now really tear through the Xichung. Poor buggers.

My race is psychic, propulsionexperts, political -50%, bonuses to mining, maintenance and intelligence.

Best game I´ve had so far with SEIVand 1.30.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Thank you all for your responses to this point. I am glad that people are finding the Rage enjoyable (albeit deadly).

I am in the process of testing the fix to the destroyer production issue. I am also fixing a couple of other issues like the fact that in the late game, the Rage will try to build atmosphere converters. Since they are a no-atmosphere race, this is an exersize in futility, so I am going to have them stop doing that.

I am also updating the shipset slightly based on suggestions from John Beech of Universal Shipyards.

If there are any other issues that you see while playing the Rage, please post them here so that I can fix them. I hope to have a new Version ready to roll out in another few days.

Thanks!

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Do you have a problem with them wanting to strip away the atomsphere of the planets they are on unless they are on gas giants and then it doesn't work.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hydraa:
Do you have a problem with them wanting to strip away the atomsphere of the planets they are on unless they are on gas giants and then it doesn't work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was under the impression that it didn't work on any type of planet. If that isn't true then I will leave that in. Have you seen it work?

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Atmosphere converters work for none races.

They don't work on Gas Giants because of a hard coded entry not allowing the combination Gas Giant/None.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

I stand corrected.

Next question: do any of the modders out there know how to tell the AI that it should only build atmospheric converters if the planet is not a Gas Giant? When I had atmospheric converters in the facility construction file in a full-tech game, the AI was merrily building atmosheric converters on Gas Giants populated with my no-atmosphere Rage.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

There is no way you can tell AI not to build atmosphere converters on Gas Giants by standard moding. That will have to be hard coded by MM. I suggest you send him mail with this so that he can fix it in the next patch.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Alpha Kodiak I found a minor error in the General Text file of the rage:
The Last line reads:
Race Opt 3 Adv Trait 3 := Advanced Storage Techniques
It should be not "Adv Trait 3" but "2". This may create an error message (can't find Adv Trait 2) when the computer uses the rage as a random generated empire.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Daynarr even better would be, that the athmosphere converter on a Gas Giant with a race of no athmosphere breathers creates a rock planet with no athmosphere. Otherwise the choice of "no athmosphere" for a race will always have a major handicap.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Alpha, I have a little suggestion regarding rage politics file. If they are gun slinging-murdering-rampaging-no good-easy to PO-toasters they seem to be, they shouldn't be able to go as high as partnership with any race. You may want to cap the to something like trade alliance or non-aggression treaty (like Sergetti and Xi'Chung are). It will be more into their 'mentality'.
You can also consider lowering their political trait to 50% and using points on reproduction (it has most effect for the buck) and maintenance.
BTW. great race, and very nasty opponent.

[This message has been edited by Daynarr (edited 21 March 2001).]

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Q: Thanks for the catch on the general file!

Daynarr: Good point on the politics. They really don't seem like a race that should ever make a partnership.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Emp. Zodd had a good point on a machine race not being suseptic to plagues. However, I would think that they would be highly suseptical to Computer Viruses, computer weapons or Radiation type bombs or weapons. These would attack their processors or whatever they use. Just some ideas mac

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

I am almost ready to release Rage 1.1 that addresses the issues that have been brought up here.

I have two questions:

1) Does anyone know how to get the AI to demand surrender? The rage had the Norak down to just their homeworld, with more than 10 times the number of points the Norak had, and they never issued a demand for surrender. After several turns they diverted enough of a fleet from attacking the Phong to glass the Norak homeworld, but they never asked for surrender. As I read the politics file, they should have started asking for surrender when their point total was twice that of the Norak. (Or do they only ask once, long before the other race would be prepared to surrender - if it came early enough, I might have missed it?)

2) I have tinkered around with the .emp files to see if I could give the "Mechanoid Race" characteristic to the Rage to make them immune to plague (as discussed in this thread). I can't justify the expense in the 2000 or 3000 point files, since my goal is maximum competitiveness, but I could do it in the 5000 point file. The question is, is it worth it to spend 1000 racial points to give them "Mechanoid Race" in the 5000 point file instead of further bumping up some of the basic characteristics?

Any thoughts or opinions on these would be greatly appreciated. I would like to package up the Rage 1.1 in the next day or so (perhaps even this evening, depending on how much time I have).

Thanks

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
1) Does anyone know how to get the AI to demand surrender? The rage had the Norak down to just their homeworld, with more than 10 times the number of points the Norak had, and they never issued a demand for surrender. After several turns they diverted enough of a fleet from attacking the Phong to glass the Norak homeworld, but they never asked for surrender. As I read the politics file, they should have started asking for surrender when their point total was twice that of the Norak. (Or do they only ask once, long before the other race would be prepared to surrender - if it came early enough, I might have missed it?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would they start asking at twice their enemy's score? I think the lowest setting for an AI to accept the surrender demand is 5x or 10x (i.e., they'll only surrender when the opponent is 5 to 10 times stronger). Maybe the setting for requesting a surrender should be higher, maybe around 10x or 11x...

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

About your second question... well, I like more the competitive races, instead races with a coherent RP. Select the the "Mechanoid Race" will be a waste of points.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
Why would they start asking at twice their enemy's score? I think the lowest setting for an AI to accept the surrender demand is 5x or 10x (i.e., they'll only surrender when the opponent is 5 to 10 times stronger). Maybe the setting for requesting a surrender should be higher, maybe around 10x or 11x...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that it doesn't make sense. I'm wondering if I am reading the politics file incorrectly (didn't modify this part from the default). It has a score percent of 50 for sending a demand surrender message. As I understand it, that means it should send the message if the score of the target is 50% of the senders score. Before I change it, I wanted to see if someone could enlighten me on what is going on.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

If I think about it, i can't recall that I ever saw the AI demand surrender! Did anybody else??
About your second question: I never choose the mechanoid trait, because I think it is rather easy to research the medical technology that protects you against plagues. But you must give the AI a ship design with medical bays, otherwise he will be helpless against plagues even if he researched the medical technology. But if the AI has a ship with a medical bay, he will send it to the plagued colony.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

1) You can't do it by modding. It is something that AI never does and is hard coded. I am surprised that you guys never noticed it before. I thought that you were flooding MM mail with these reports on AI that doesn't use about half of the diplomatic options even if they exist in their politics file. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

2) My vote is 'no go' for Mechanoid. It is nearly useless for 1000 points and the people that really want to have RP before competitive game can change that themselves.
On the other hand, I have included 2 types of emp files for all my moded races. First type with the default roleplaying characteristics and the second with the settings for greater challenge playing with and without intel. You can try that approach as well.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

1.) Daynarr it is quite rare that I get into a situation where an AI empire would reasonably demand me to surrender http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif.
But seriously: thank you for this information.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daynarr:
1) You can't do it by modding. It is something that AI never does and is hard coded. I am surprised that you guys never noticed it before. I thought that you were flooding MM mail with these reports on AI that doesn't use about half of the diplomatic options even if they exist in their politics file. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

2) My vote is 'no go' for Mechanoid. It is nearly useless for 1000 points and the people that really want to have RP before competitive game can change that themselves.
On the other hand, I have included 2 types of emp files for all my moded races. First type with the default roleplaying characteristics and the second with the settings for greater challenge playing with and without intel. You can try that approach as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I've often wondered why the AI doesn't go begging for gifts when it's low on resources. It will occasionally ask for tribute, but it seems to only realize it can do so once. I'm guessing that it has a "level sensitive" check of some sort. When it sees that it has crossed the threshold it will ask for tribute. But if it remains above the tribute level it will not ask again. I've never seen it ask for surrender. And there is another opportunity for some trickiness here, too. Some AIs ought to pull the MOO trick and surrender to someone else just to spite you. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I must disagree about the value of the Mechanoid ability. The AI is just about clueless with Medical Bays even though I've added medical science to the research queue. There's no type for a "Medical Ship" and I don't want a bay in every ship of a class. So, when plague events hit or some nasty hooman uses bio-weapons, the AI is helpless. Admittedly, it should NOT be... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif but it is. This makes an AI invulnerable to that particular trick. Not having to research medical science to defend yourself is an advantage, if a small one.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Baron about the second point: There are some ship designs that the AI does not really use (correctly) as create nebula ships. It is easy to modify their design to have a medical bay and let the AI build at least one. Then plagues should then be cured by the AI. I did not verify this until now, but I did see the AI use a medical bay ship I designed for him. He moved it directely to the plagued planet after the ship was contructed.

By the way to you know of a any plans, that would allow us to create new ship design types for the AI? This would greatly enhance the possibility to create more diverse designs for the AI.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Just had a combat against the XiChung empire: I infected one of their home planet with plague level V (lost my ship in this attack) and thought now I could watch their population die.
Wrong!
They cured the plague instantaneously and lost not 1M population. Locking at their design files I realized their population transports have a medical bay!
Really good work!!

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Alpha here a report about my game with the Rage Version 1.0 (I did not yet install Version 1.1 because I didn't want to interfere with the game), full technology:

They are 9. of 15 empires, have war with 3 empires including the number one empire (Ukra-Tal), a non-aggression treaty with one empire (that's me the United Federation of Planets. Well who could resist my diplomatic skills http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif ) and no treaty with the rest. Their ship designs look very good IMO and they construct ships and units like mad and still have enough resources. So I think they perform very well, even if they are only number 9. Having to fight against almost all other empires is quite difficult, so may be they should accept or even propose the NA-treaty a little bit more often.
What you should consider, if you not already included it in your Version 1.1 is a racial trait with special weapons (e.g. crystalline). Their most important problem at the moment in my game are the Ukra-Tal with their organic technology ships!

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

Q:

Interesting point on the diplomacy. (They do tend to get a bit aggressive, don't they?!) I probably need to consider bumping up the number of systems to defend, if not the inclination to accept at least low level treaties. I'm not sure what to do with that one yet.

On the racial traits and dealing with organics, Crystaline tech would be useful in that case, but I think the reason that the Rage can build so fast is because of the Advanced Storage trait and possibly the Advanced Movement trait. I may explore the possibility of dropping Advanced Movement in favor of another trait.

Either that, or perhaps the yet to be named mortal enemies of the Rage will have some of those characteristics. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
Just had a combat against the XiChung empire: I infected one of their home planet with plague level V (lost my ship in this attack) and thought now I could watch their population die.
Wrong!
They cured the plague instantaneously and lost not 1M population. Locking at their design files I realized their population transports have a medical bay!
Really good work!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's clever. Now we know where to put the Medical Bays. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Now, can you get a plague cure from an ALLY'S ship with a medical bay? I'd think that military alliance or better should let your ally cure your planets...

The remaining question is: Do races conquered by a mechanoid race become 'mechanoid' just like races conquered by emotionless races become emotionless? They should not, in either case, but I bet they do.

Re: The Rage Collective Version 1.0
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
The remaining question is: Do races conquered by a mechanoid race become 'mechanoid' just like races conquered by emotionless races become emotionless? They should not, in either case, but I bet they do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just think Borg... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif