SPAA or SPAG ?
 

The game engine still likes to buy tons of SPAA and use them as SPAGs .. .

Due to overrated armor and survivability on most SPAAs with some success, I must say.
As long as a M53/59 SPAA (6-wheeled lightly armored APC with 2x30mm AAgun) can take 155mm Offboard Arty hits or a burst of 20mm AP from 300m, there's really few reason to leave them behind.

I have seen this behaviour since the very first Steel Panthers, but it still annoys me to no end !

Is there any posibility to make the AI not move SPAA forward ?

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

The game is designed in the AI code to move SPAA forwards with the troops, to give the forward troops AA cover.

The AI is designed to not let them get too close, but in the end game it will use them (and SP-ATGM and other classes that normally hang back) to close and take objecctives, usually since there will likely be very few AI actual tanks and APC running by that point! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Cheers
Andy

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

I usually move SPAA in front line to provide my tanks AA protection, and also on their own to do the mopping up of infantry, beware the ATGM infantry that will surely take out them with no problem.

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

Does covering other SPAAs count? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

hmmmhhmmm.. that might be it. It where generally short battles, around 15 turns - is "end game" a %tage of total turns or a fixed number?
If it considers "8 turns before end" endgame, that would result in some strange behaviour in battles only 14 turns long http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

I think the term "end game" refers rather to a situation where the AI's tanks and APC's are burning all across the map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

@resistance to 155mm ans small guns... Not sure about it, my experiences are that it might not be neccessarily destroyed, but usually atleast some members are killed and vehicle damaged.

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

LOL like ALL Grigsby games they are usally usless to play vs the AI (his cheats are the most despicable since the advent of wargaming) I could list dozen's but why bother, as a beer and pretzels game it's OK but bears NO resemblance to a real life situation.

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

Go ahead and list what you think is still there becasue we've spent the last few years removing anything we consider a cheat and are quite curious to find out what you consider has been left in.



Don

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

Hmmm well lets see how about borg spotting with arty?? AI arty will hit with at least 30% accuracy with no LOS at all, and the AI will have either air or arty on EVERY turn (unless you turn a BUNCH of stuff off). "to hit table" for the AI is uncanny, they can fire small arms from 400 meters and obtain kills on entrenched infantry not to mention that they are ALWAYS vet or better in rating vs the Human who will be regular at best (unless playing a third or fourth game of a campagne). AI enjoys unlimited "buy" points and buys units after you have chosen so as to offset any advantage you might have gotten with specialized troop/equipment. The biggest in my opinion is the AI's ability to fire round after round in front of NUMEROUS human troops and remain UNSPOTTED, not to mention the cute little LOS game of "I can see you but you can't see me" where the AI can fire on you but you cannot return fire EVEN with the targeted unit who IS NOT suppressed. The AI will assess "key" assets and they will be hit by planes/arty on the FIRST turn even tho they are "unspotted". How about units "popping up" unseen while crossing "open ground" in front of your massed scouts and infantry??? I am sure I can find others but there is a starter. Now mind you NONE of this occurs in a 2 player game so as a 2 player it is fine.

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

Hmm - sounds like you are referring to the original SP2 or SP3 game of long ago.

Please provide some save game examples where this behaviour can be shown to happen. After all, if there is buit-in "AI cheating" then this will be regular and repeatable, hence easily captured evidence.

As Don says - we have spent time removing the few AI cheats thet were there in the original SSI game. The AI uses the same delay procedures as the human player, and gets no "free hints" as to where the human player is. That is all there was, and it WAS frustrating in SP2 (not our game) to take a hill and get "instant arty" on your troops.

The game uses the same code to spot and hit, there is no "AI bonus". It does not get any troop quality bonus - it uses the same troop quality as the human would if he bought that army at that date.

The AI uses my routines to plot arty now - there are no cheats or bonuses. It plans bombardments on likely areas, near roads and road junctions, and near objective hexes if it is plotting "blind". it uses the same delay code (but is intelligent enough to use an artillery observer if present, or the HQ, for shorter delays).

In this latest issue the AI has been given a "clue" about events that your opponent (if human) would have noted from the PBEM playback. each one of itself is not a 100% guarantee of arty being plotted thereabouts, but the more you do inthe same area, the more likely that AI will target that zone, just a s ahuman player would. previously, the AI would only target your units if they were still detected in its turn, otherwise it would use the random plot procedures.

Now - it will take an "interest" in the following events, reported onthe screen to a human opponent: rooster trail smoke generation, engineer mine clearance messages, Z-key area fire events, Direct fire events, missile launch (SAM or ATGM) events, mine trips, smoke X-key events and a few others I probably have forgotten.

In the past - you could play the "hill dance" of popping up from behind a hill, firing, and ensuring you ended behind the hill to avoid enemy fire in his turn ANd any plotting of AI arty as the trops would be hidden in its turn, so not plotted on. Now - the more shots you fire from a particular area, the more chance of some incoming your way.

Oh - forgot the tripping of an objective hex, that one is a relatively high AI interest item now. A human opponent would note the flag change, and now the AI does as well.

Please demonstrate with hard evidence anything that backs up your assertions, and I'll gladly look into it.

Cheers
Andy

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

Ok will try and capture some video for ya, I just played a generated campagne where in the last game I was the defender, I had "earned" enough points to have about 15 M1A1's, the enemy assaulted with no less than 150 vehicles most of which were tanks over 50 were main battle tanks, along with "hords" of infantry and arty and aerial attacks on EVERY turn, which by the way targeted my stinger assets on the first turn BEFORE they had fired. The AI's "buy" points had to be HUGE to afford all the assets thrown my way

I also note that you didnot address my main complaint about LOS advantage???

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

I have to say that the AI artillery kinda bothered me in my SPWW2 3.01 campaing, as well as air strikes, but I also have to say it was always my fault - too long resting on one point, forgetting to move support infantry from shell impact zones etc.
Yes, the numerical advantage can be sometimes a pain, but if you had 15 Abrams and he got 50 MBT's, I doubt they were on a good level. AI once attacked my company of M-60's with a fleet of about 90 Shermans (M4A3) and six M-48's and he nearly got me rolled over my forward platoon (he had more tanks than my M-60's got ammo:o)), but Sherman vs. M-60 is something I cannot call fair fight.
LOS oddities - I haven't noticed them. Again - dug in ATG can be a pain to spot if you don't have some scouts riding along with your tanks, even worse are ATGM's (as I've noticed recently in one PBEM:o))

Now if you wish for games where AI cheats, go for say Battle Isle 1 and 2 and then you'll see that even SP1 and 2 were only beginners in cheating:o)

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

You didn't tell us WHO "the enemy" was or how many points you are using. That is important information. All we need is a simple save game to see what it is YOU are seeing to make this conversation more relevant
The game DOES NOT specifically target things like Stingers unless they have fired. There is NO code in the game that does this. If you got whacked it's because you were in places likely to be hit by a human player who's thinking because Andy programmed it to target likely areas of concentration

Yes, he did...
"The game uses the same code to spot and hit, there is no "AI bonus"."
That applies to arty as well as units seeing other units. The is NO special AI bonus

Send a save game of your campaign. We cannot comment further on this without seeing what you are seeing

Don

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

Depends on the battle, as well; remember the points-ratios if it's an assault. Just did a meeting-engagement (USMC v. N. Korea, '97) with 1 Coy M1A1HMC, 1 Pl LAV-25 (ITOW, a couple choppers, a couple AOP Hummers, 5 Dragon teams and some 155s. NKs swarmed with at least 3-4 to 1 odds *numerically*, tank-heavy mix. (Think I was running 12.5k points.) Lots of cheap versus a few pricey things.

I'll note that AI arty was (apparently) map fire, and mostly targeted: 1) high ground, 2) v-hex locations, and 3) roads along route of march, and apparently expecting much slower rate-of-march. Unless I killed another observer team, the only one I saw had been pinned down under 155s and wasn't directing fire for most of the game. Enemy arty also got conterbatteried pretty hard. <G> What air attacks there were managed to accidentally kill a Seahawk (same hex as the targetted tank at the time) and a Dragon team (next hex past the target). Oh, and they scratched up my tanks something *awful*...

A horde isn't that dangerous unless they 1) can run you out of shots/ammo, 2) can close to effective range and 3) have effective weaponry. In 3.01, I was running a Sov invasion of Iran in '79/'80, and the huge numbers of M4s the computer bought were more of a strain to my ammo supply than a danger to my T-80s. (Don't think I even had an immobilisation from M4 fire on a tank before the campaign crashed. They did hit some of my BMPs and BRDMs, tho, but the BMPs killed more than got killed.)

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

There's a huge point diffrence between modern equipment and the older stuff, especially soviet equipment. And I think the computer gets the same buy points as you unless specified. This is why countries like NK or Libya can buy hordes of equipment which however is often really weak.

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

The AI gets the same points as you now, unlike in the original SP2 where it got a bonus buy at the start of the pick for free, something like some artillery and a tank platoon as I recall, plus some free barge carriers in a river assault crossing too (that went out when we got the original code, immediately). There was also a rare AI special set-up in the meeting engagement where it started deployed to the 50% line as if in a delay, but with equal points. Removed.

The AI now has the exact same points to buy with as you, and no deployment "cheats". The only one of the latter is that the AI is allowed still to deploy a bit further forward than a human when assaulting in a river crossing, but defending against the AI in a river crossing is an exrecise in shooting fish in a barrel, anyway, so it needs help there! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Cheers
Andy

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

The campagne I was in was US vs Iraq, as I said I will send a saved game for ya. Not sure which files I need to zip tho can you give me a clue.

If what you say about spotting is correct I must be doing something wrong, will test it further

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

Andy or Don needs SpSv001.cmt and SpSv001.dat zipped up if you have saved to slot 01. If you used another slot you need the according *.cmt and *.dat files of that slot you saved to.

Singleplayer and unsecure PBEM saves you find here:
[WinSPMBT\Saved Games\]

Secure PBEM files you find here:
[WinSPMBT\PBEM Games\]

cheers

Helge

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

Make a note which save slot you are in ( they are printed beside the slot ) then open up your SAVED GAMES folder and look for the two files Helge mentioned but with your slot number. There will be two. A DAT file and a .CMT file

Zip both of them up and attach to your next post

Keep in mind the AI buys by points the same as you do and although you may buy 7 1993 era M1A2's for approx 3100 points the Iraqi AI can buy 27 T-62m's for the same number of points. All tank costs are calculated with the same formula. The more capable it is the more it costs. I think you will agree a T-62m is no match for an M1A2 but 4 T-62's for every Abrams evens the odds ( a bit )

If you take the Iraqis then play the AI as the US you will not see it buy a horde of M1A2's becasue M1A2's cost about 435 points each and a T-62m is 112. ( and 7 M1A2's will have NO difficulty defeating 27 T-62's unless the T-62's are handled very skillfully

Don

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

A quick solve to the AI arty problem:

Buy a Regiment of MLRS, and dont use them. that solves the problem just fine...

Just out of intrest, what do you have your prefrences set to? Check those to make sure you haven't allocated the AI an advantage.

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

countries like Russia or the old iraq or Iran or India and so on, do they send their SPSAM's alone with their tanks and infantry? I noticed that toward the end on many battles, namely ones above, they would send their SP-SAM's to the final assault. One time in the mass confusion, I let a SP-SAM get through my lines, and he ended up behind me going for my hexes, glad he could not fire anything!

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

Well, normally they tend to keep their SAMs some hexes from their map border, though in a final rush they may want to take tem along... Remember that many SP-SAM can't shoot on the move, and are pretty useless in that case http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

In real life, AFAIK the Soviet doctrine was one SPAA battery per armored/mechanized regiment (3/4 battalions); with mixed SAM and AAG (nominally 2 sections of 2 ZSU and 2 sections of 2 SA-9/-13). Guess they could (limitedly) despatch these, so I generally put 2 ZSU, sometimes +2 SAM per battalion in game. In mech/arm'd infantry battalions you also have a SAM platoon with 2 to 9 MANPADS teams in 2 to 3 BMPs or BTRs (same model as the main troops), plus in theory at least one spare MANPADS launcher in one BMP per company (that is featured in the game with SAM support sections or separate SAM teams with the cmp. HQ squad).
I don't know about the heavier mixed AA battalions that are said to come up in the late 80s, with 2S6, SA-15 and infantry SAMs pasted together. Probable they didn't manage to build many of these.

In the pre-ODS Iraqi army I think they used to deploy one ZSU platoon per mechanized task force (battalion-sized). Lok at the tutorial scenario for this, you'll have a fair portraying of Iraqi battalion organization.

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

I hardly ever play battalion size games, do they ever attach SPAA or SP-SAMs with platoon levels, or do these countries just stick with company- Battalion size units?

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

generally not, from the whole orbat data i could find, SPAA tend to be battalion stuff at the lowest, maybe detachable to squadrons. It all depends to the air threat you expect, that's why it all fell down with the Berlin Wall http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: SPAA or SPAG ?
 

that is fair enought to say, so you agree that as fas as it will go would with a company! I think I will play a large one just to get a glimpse, for all I know its my calling!