obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

Hi all
I created new oob for Czechoslovakia so you can look at it.
It has also its own picklist.
Regards

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

What about a list of the changes you did to the OOB so all the guys can give their feedback? Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

List of changes:
-several changes in dates
-variants of T-40/75 (PzIV), Pz V Panther - were used after general repair so start years 1948-1950
-T-34/85 M1951 cz. licence production, crew 4
-T-54AR/AM1/AM2, note: KLADIVO FCS consists of digital computer, wind sensor and upgraded stabilisation - it is better FCS than in T-72M1
-T-72 SOV original T-72 imported from Soviet Union, only 31 tanks, czech's T-72 than have laser RF
-changed ammo for 125mm Gun: Sabot 49 as BM-15, HEAT 50 as BK-14M and Sabot 63 as czech's Synthesia new ammo
-removed Leopard 2A4
-removed AT-1 Snapper it was not used (bought only 1 BRDM and 1 GAZ for testing)
-removed BRDM Swatter I have not found any records of it in CSLA
-removed SP-Mortar MTLB/82
-removed SA-8a only SA-8b used + for all names russian and czech used
-removed BRDM-2 basic recce version wasn't used (only special variants like chemical recce which isn't in this game)
-added M-53/59M with new RF
-added modernised SA-6
-removed modernised SA-8 only SA-6 were modernised
-added SA-5 (S-200) although this is pure air defence of state (PVOS) system nearly all battles in Czech Republic would be covered by SA-5
-revised all helicopters and airplanes
-removed CF-18 Hornet
-added Mosquito FB.VI
-added Spitfire Mk.IX
-revised variants of MiG and Su
-added several command vehicles (BRM-1K, T-54AK, T-55AK, T-72MK)
-completely revised Infantry platoons and companies - that is reason for new picklist so AI can use it

Pavel Novak

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

I'll have a look at this at some point, but will especially check out the command vehicles.

In Sp, command vehicles (if placed e.g. in line tank units) are a really bad idea. They confer no benefits, and have the disadvantage that they tell a human opponent precisely which vehicle to kill first. It is like hanging a big "kick me!" notice on the unit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Cheers
Andy

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

I added command vehicles from one reason. Sometimes I start campaign and as a core units I buy companies of some historical unit (for example I go to war as a commander of 1st Tank Regiment in 1980) and than (only against computer) I will use these command vehicles. Just because it looks nice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif and AI will never use it (except BRM-1K).
Another story is BRM-1K which is command vehicle in recon company. This is different vehicle than others in recon unit and if it is targeted at first - than BPzV has greater firepower to response.
regards Pavel Novak

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

Hi all
there are info about start and end dates - I am sure that these are right and in game not. This is great game and I hope this help to imrove official obat.

T-54AM1 since 1984
T-54AM2 since 1987 without ATGM and old night vision
T-55AM2 since 1987 without ATGM and old night vision
T-72 imported from USSR since 1978 optical rangefinder
T-72 licence built since 1981 with laser rangefinder
2S1 Gvozdika since 1978
9K31 Strela-1M (SA-9b) since 1978 only this variant used
9K35 Strela-10M (SA-13) since 1983 only this variant imported from USSR
2K11 Krug-A (SA-4) since 1974 to 1992
SA-6 since 1975 I don't know exactly which version
BRDM-1 since 1960
BVP-2 since 1983
W-3A Sokol since 1996
MiG-17F since 1955 to 1965 only 2 aircraft of this version
MiG-17PF since 1956 to 1969
MiG-19S/S-105 since 1958
MiG-19P since 1958
MiG-19PM since 1959 to 1972
MiG-21F-13/S-106 since 1962 to 1990
MiG-21M since 1969 to 1994
MiG-21MF since 1971 to 2005
MiG-23BN since 1978 to 1994
MiG-23MF since 1978 to 1994
MiG-23ML since 1981 to 1998
+ intersting findings: postwar Czechoslovakia didn't buy any flame tanks - one was in development after war but it was canceled.
I hope this will help.
Long Live SPMBT

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

I have one, T-72M4CZ has different front armor than T-72M1,Front hull 42/51(M4CZ),50/55(M1).but T-72M4 is just modernisation of older T-72M1, so values should be at least similar,but not lower, (T-72M1 should have 42/51FH), same thing is in Poland OOB.(Slovak T-72M2 has same values like T-72M1.)

All Czechoslovakian T-72 were build in slovakia (ZTS Martin) so values of base armor must be same for same versions.

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

Hi JaM
You are right. Czechoslovakia produced 3 variants of T-72. Basic T-72 with 2A46 gun with 39 ammo, laser RF and without sideskirts and smokegrenade launchers. This variant was in service since 1981.
Then was produced T-72M with same armor as T-72 but with 44 ammo for gun, sideskirts and smokegrenade launchers. I don't know when this variant was fielded. Technical documentation come to Czechoslovakia at the end of year 1981.
The last version was T-72M1 with same FCS. Main difference is only in armor (front hull and new turret).

T-72M4 is modernisation of T-72M1 so basic armor should be same.
Regards

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

I have a issue in a UC. in 1986 the Czech units are being like Romulains.. they are invisible and the RPG-75 uses the T-72CZ icon and info screen.

Has anyone else had this issue?

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

Is this using the Czech MOD OOB or the stock OOB's??? They look fine in my game

Don

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

Stock OOB I think. Its the Silver Lions campaign

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

A screen shot or a save would be nice.

any RPG-75 I call up in the game in 1986 looks fine. I have no idea what units you found to be invisible because you didn't tell us and that's exactly the kind of info we need to investigate things

Don

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

The inf squads and OT-64 is invisible. I will post a saved turn to let you see.

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

had to change computers to get files.

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

here is 3 turns. the M-60's and scout helos can see the enemy unit but I don't see them. the T-72 icons are marked as PRG-75. I am play testing this for Double Duce and was wonder if its a campaign issue or a OOB flaw.

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

tried again anf failed again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

one more time

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

Hi
This look like that scenario is not compatible with current obat in game.
For example if you created some scenario and than you change appropriate obat in which are units in different places than in original obat than scenario will still 'call' for original units in original obat.
May be that this is the problem
Regards
Pavel Novak

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

semms if this batttle was done in spmbt 3.1

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

First three W-3A Sokol Czech Republic recived from Poland in October 1996 . So date of aviblity of W-3 Sokol should be revised and the label to should be W-3A Sokol. Thats are my proposition of corections

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

IIRC US tankers (OK, not only them) were instructed to target tanks with more radio masts as first as they are Co/Bn command vehicles? Then something alike would really mean the "Kick me" sign...

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

Why czech T54AMs, T55AMs (except T55AM2B), T72s have vision 16? They should have the same vision as their russian counterparts (as other oobs do), for at least gameplay reasons. In low visibility weather the same T72M1s with standard vision of 20 will eat czech tanks for lunch.

Even if czechs would have worse night-vision equipment provided by the soviet Union, why other Warsaw Pact countries have the common vision of 20 or more?

Also other units vison ratings are weird, differing from the common figures. I understand that there should be more differences between tanks night-vision devices than there are now, but the thing is that the game works pretty well with some standardization of vis 0, 10, 15, 20, 30, 35, 40 etc.

And to the T72M4CZ. If it has ADVANCED ERA, it should add 10-20cm of steel to the armor ratings of the tank. Also the HEAT protection should increase by as much as 30cm. So T72M4CZ frontal armor figures should be somewhere around 60-65 of steel and 80-90 of HEAT protection. Check russian and ukrainian oobs and compare the figures.

I don´t like the super-quality of ADV ERA adding to the PASSIVE armor layouts (rendering DC-ATGMs to kind of one-warhead system), but if it is so then it should extend to ALL tanks using such armor system.

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

Hi pdoktar
I started modify czechoslovak oob long time ago and I tried to by precize in all aspect. So then some "for game" bad things...

Tanks - from T-54AM to T-72M1 all have TPN-1 night vision for gunner - it has max range 800 metres = 16 p. You can change this to 20 to be comparable with other oobs.
(and T-55AM2B have TPN-3 with max range 1200m/24p, than change it to 30)

this is also about other weapons:
I did some mistakes in this version >
correct and for game:
2S1 Gvozdika: 12p ... 15p
OT-65A: 8 ... 10
OT-62: 8 ... 10
OT-64: 8 ... 10
BVP-1: 8 ... 10
BVP-2: 16 ... 20
BVP-2+: 30 (new NV from 2004)
(about BPzV it has real NV of range 20 pieces but also have ground surveliance radar - it is problematic to choose between 20 and 50 because it can see with radar through smoke etc. but in fact can not fire only with radar)

armor of T-72M4
- there is problematic how ERA works in game
if projectile hit ERA than ERA completely eliminate it but in fact ERA only reduce effect of projectile against armor
- so protection of T-72M4 with ERA is:
front hull: 52 against AP and 110 against HEAT
front turret: 52 against AP and 120 against HEAT
side turret: 30 against AP and 80 against HEAT
but if projectile hits tank in place not protected by ERA than values are same as for tank without ERA.
So you can chose which values of armor you want to use.
Regards

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

Thank you for the great answer.

As I said, there is a lot to work on in the oobs and relativities of vision, fire-control, range-finders etc. The old game engine limits a lot of different factors. Only limited types of tank ammo and especially ERA is hard to model.

However pointing these facts out is the only way to make a difference. To this game or the next one.

Still WinSPMBT is currently the game for me. Thanks for that to the developers and oob designers!

Re: obat37 Czechoslovakia
 

I think the I idea of a command vehicle is more realistic. How many military history stories have had a mention that they would identify a command track because it had more antennas. I would deffinately try to kill a M577 or the headquarter unit, it plays well. Also makes you worry about and protect your commanders more.

Just a thought... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif