obat36 East Germany
 

Give your contribute to this OOB in this thread!

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

OK, let's give it a try...

here comes a modified version, with new 'old' 125mm gun following Claudio's remark, some corrected names, some missing units added...

Hope it helps.

Cheers,

Plasma

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Thanks! can you give a list of the modify you did? So everyone can have a better view of it and maybe give their opinion! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Erm, maybe I should have started with that...http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Les'say:

-corrected gun on early T-72, switched to model 1970
-Added variants of BMP-1P and BRDM-2 AT with AT-3B SACLOS missile
-Added 2S3M Akatsia in the late 80s
-Added UAZ-69AM and UAZ-469 utility cars
-Added Trabant 601 as utility car (quite pointless but was used)
-Added MANPADS team in BTR companies from 1976 onwards
-Added RCL-portee on BTR-152 when retired from APC service
-Added BRDM2 spotter (should be without turret?)
-Added level-bomber Su-22 to replace Il-28 after 1982
-Added whole series of later recon motorbikes (ES thru ATZ-250)
-Corrected many names to reflect German terming (helps differentiate from Russian)

And I slightly tweaked some in-service dates according to direct data I have found. Maybe not much relevance, but well...

I guess a custom picklist could help.

Oh, I forgot that: if you want to be REAL precise about names you can add "PALR" before every single ATGM entry in the weapons listing. If you find room http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Stands for "Panzerabwehrlenkrakete", i.e. ATGM.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Hello,

Thanks for your work (all your work) ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Best regards,
Laurent Touchard

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Plasma - any changes to formations in service dates etc to existing formations? (new formations do not mater as the pick will not use it).

I'll monitor this thread - but the edits may well become the "official" fix, and go in the master for any future updates.

Cheers
Andy

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Wow, what an honour http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif. I hope all I said has been relevant.

Yep, as I said I added 1*Strela team in the SPW Co, from 1976 onwards (Strela team availability).
Following what I have stopped the original SPW Co (slot 1OO3) at 12/1975.

But since the difference is minimal and it comes down to SAM availability, I think both formations could coexist until the end.

Otherwise I mainly added things, and tweaked only slightly the begin dates of some units. A big part of the end dates are fixed anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

AAMOF I have quite few info on formations, but I may have a further look in time coming, if that counts for an official upgrade.

Best regards Andy,

Plasma

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Did you remove the T-62s as well? East Germany never had them in their inventory. I got a very detailed book about the NVA - they also had only some 24 or so BMP-2s, for example - I don't know if they exist in the SPMBT OOB...

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Any actual cites for the unavailability of the T-62 in the East German army?. A bald statement unless backed up by some facts cannot be relied upon, I am afraid.

Ditto for the BMP-2. However 24 BMP-2 is enough to allow its remaining in the OOB, but the radio code might then need changing to X3 to stop any AI buy.

As to "I don't know if they exist in the SPMBT OOB... ", simply opening up Mobhack and searching on BMP will find it in oh, about 10 seconds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


cheers
Andy

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Here you go--- I was not at home when I posted yesterday so I didnt't have the source or the game ready to check,,, you may forgive me... but I do have a source, and a very good one in my opinion, see below. And, by the way: You are asking me for my source on the non-availability of T-62s and the limited number of BMP-2s... fair enough--- but then, as a conclusion from your statement above, I would call it a bit naive to include T-62s in the OOB of just about any Soviet client state per se, with a motto like 'Let them have T-62s unless someone can prove me wrong',,, as they were 'standard-issue' - without any source? In fact, as you undoubtedly know, the T-62 was in much less wide-spread use when compared to the T-55, and many armies upgraded their T-54s and T-55s until the T-72 arrived, without ever receiving T-62s.

Alright, here's my source:

Kopenhagen, Wilfried: Die Landstreitkräfte der NVA, Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart; 2. Auflage, 1999; ISBN 3-613-01943-4

This book was written as the third part of a series on the armed forces of the German Democratic Republic, all of them being very detailed and highly recommended (in German, of course). The author himself served in the NVA as an officer and later he became a journalist for a military journal.

Some information as required: (my translation ;-)) "Altogether, only 24 BMP-2 were in the inventory, all of them with the 9th Armored Division. Initially, the Soviets had difficulties with meeting the delivery schedule, due to the high demand for Afghanistan, while from 1987 on, the NVA was not interested in any further BMP-2s. It was intended to transition to the BMP-3 directly, which had become available in the meantime." (page 135, together with a 2-page colour photo of NVA Grenadiers dismounting from a BMP-2).

Some sample data from the total inventory:

As of summer 1990 , the NVA had 549x T-72, some 1969x T-55 (various versions, the latest being 319x upgraded T-55AM2B), 24x BMP-2 (since 1985), 926xBMP-1SP2, 187xBMP-1P, 12xBRM-1K, 545xMT-LB, 54xPT-76, 123xZSU-23/4, 958xSPW-70 (=BTR-70), et cetera, et cetera...

The book also offers phased in-service dates and origins of almost any system in the East German army, including all kinds of vehicles and weapons, and even the most rare engineer equipment or self-made modifications of older systems.

While I am willing to make some contributions to this great game, I do, however, not have the time to spend ages on producing a correct OOB for East Germany - and, I admit, I am not so concerned with such details anyway - if I play East Germany I just won't use them T-62s http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

cheers,
Shan

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

thanks - these modes should be in the next release.

Cheers
Andy

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

If you want to quote what we say...fair enough but DO try to refrain from making up quotes based on assumptions...OK?

NOWHERE did we say "Let them have T-62s unless someone can prove me wrong" and that CERTAINLY isn't any kind of "motto" we have. What you were ASKED was to provide us with a source to back up what you claimed so we have a solid reason to removed them from the OOB. Fair enough, you did and the changes have been made to the OOB. WHY they were added in the first place IDK because neither Andy or I wrote the OOB's and we don't ask the OOB writers to waste precious time to provide source info to justify every single entry in a OOB. We assume if it's been entered there must be a reason even if it's just an assumption based on thin information and sometimes the information is difficult to find. If someone comes along YEARS after the OOB was originally released and is the ONLY person in all that time to have ever claimed that the East Germans never used T-62's then I think you'll understand WHY we say "prove it"

Don

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

In regards to the tanks of East Germany:

"East Germany
Ground Forces

The ground forces in 1987 made up 68 percent of the NVA, having a total strength of 120,000, of whom 60 percent were draftees. Ground forces included two tank divisions, four motorized rifle regiments, two surface-to-surface missile brigades, two artillery regiments and one antiaircraft artillery regiment, eight air defense regiments, one airborne battalion, two antitank battalions, and several support units.

Because East Germany produced primarily military supplies--such as computers, clothing, military vehicles, and communications equipment--rather than arms, major items of weaponry and equipment were obtained from the Soviet Union. Of the equipment used by the ground forces, only some wheeled vehicles were of East German design and manufacture. Some small arms and ammunition were also of local manufacture but were licensed copies of Soviet designs. The NVA had purchased 170 RM-70 122mm multiple rocket launchers and a number of FUG-70 scout cars from Czechoslovakia, but most of its weapons and equipment were of Soviet design and manufacture. In 1985 the tank inventory included an estimated 1,500 T-54s, T-55s, and T-72s assigned to units and approximately 1,600 more armored vehicles, including T-34s, in storage. Reconnaissance units were equipped with 1,000 BRDM-1 and BRDM-2 scout cars. Motorized infantry units had 1,000 BMP infantry combat vehicles, as well as 1,500 BTR-50Ps, BTR-60Ps, and BTR-152s and 200 BTR-70s (armored personnel carriers) and MT-LBs (multipurpose towing and transport vehicles). The artillery inventory included the following guns: 400 D-44s and self-propelled SD-44s (85mm); M-1931s and M-1937s (122mm); and 72 M-46s (130mm). There were also 108 M-1937 gun howitzers and 54 self-propelled M-197 and D-20 (152mm) gun howitzers, as well as various other kinds of howitzers: D-30s, M-1938s (M-30s), and self-propelled M-1974s (122 mm). Other artillery assets were 250 mortars (120mm); 24 FROG-7 and 18 SCUD-B tactical missile launchers; and multiple rocket launchers, which included 108 BM-21s, Czechoslovak RM-70s (122mm), and BM-24s (240mm) (see fig. 14).

The NVA's antitank inventory consisted of 120 T-12 guns (100mm) and various quantities of AT-3 SAGGER (including self-propelled BRDM-2s) and AT-4 SPIGOT antitank guided weapons. In terms of air defense assets, the East German ground forces had ninety-six self-propelled ZSU-23-4 guns, as well as SA-4, SA-6, and SA-9 antiaircraft missiles."

Data as of July 1987
(Library of Congress Country Studies)

But, in considering the potential battles with East Germany, we must remember that the Soviet Army (GSFG)had over 5000 of their own tanks, the majority being the T-72, but also included the T-62, T-64A (Mid-1970s) and the T-64B (Early-1980s). This is interesting, and should be considered while in a campaign with East Germany, as there would be near certainty of Soviet armor. Below is quoted from the same source as above:

"The Group of Soviet Forces in Germany

The westernmost and most formidable concentration of Soviet armed might outside the borders of the Soviet Union is the GSFG. In 1987 this force of about 380,000 men, organized into 20 ground force divisions and one air army and stationed entirely in East Germany, was over twice the size of the NVA.

...The First Guards Tank Army, headquartered at Dresden, included four tank divisions and one motorized rifle division; the Second Guards Army, at Fürstenberg, had one tank and two motorized rifle divisions; the Eighth Guards Army, at Weimar-Nohra, had one tank and three motorized rifle divisions; the Twentieth Guards Army, at Eberswalde, had three motorized rifle divisions; and the Third Shock Army, at Magdeburg, had four tank divisions and one motorized rifle division. In addition to the necessary artillery units at army and division levels, artillery support was provided by an independent division of rocket troops and artillery--the Thirty-fourth Artillery Division--stationed at Potsdam-Elstal and directly subordinate to the GSFG. A Spetsnaz (see Glossary) company was assigned to each army, and an independent Spetsnaz brigade was stationed in Neuruppin. Air support was provided by the Twenty-fourth Air Army, with headquarters at Wünsdorf. It is considered the best-equipped part of the Soviet air forces. In 1987 about 80 percent of the 1,000 to 2,000 aircraft were potential carriers of nuclear weapons."

This is why the A-10 was developed, in regards to actual armor numbers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Alright guys, I am sorry for some of the wording in my last post, I have to admit I was a bit angry - so, next time, I'll post only when I have the source at hand, so we'll avoid that someone might think this is a statement without any back-up. As for the last post here by Sewter - it confirms what I found i my book. If u need any more details on the NVA (Nationale Volksarmee), then I'll look it up for u!

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

I noticed some wrong introduction dates in the new OOB - correct ones should be:

2S3M: Introduction '78-86

2S1: Introduction '81-88

(source: see above)

Another thing: They probably didn't have that 82mm Vasilyok grenade launcher/anti-tank gun, at least it isn't mentioned among all the other grenade launchers + anti-tank weapons.

Another thing: I know the NVA had both the armored and the un-armored version of the Czech-built RM-70 MLR... I found that it's never armored in any country in the game, and probably right so, as only the cab has thin armor, not the rocket packs.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

great work in improving the East German OOB.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

On the other hand my copy of "UNsere Armee für Frieden und Sozialismus-25Jahre Nationale Volksarmee"
Does state on Page 377: "Such upgrades included improved versions of the vernable T-55 and the modern Soviet T-62 tank."
This passage refers to upgrades in the late 1970s, and this in connection to the claim of my Grandfather, Lieutenant Colonel Willi Müller, leads me to believe that there were indeed T-62 in the NVA.
UNfortunately neither he nor this or any other book I own does state numbers for that claim, but if we agree on 24 BMP2 I think we must include T-62s as well-

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

That's maybe a bit far-fetched, but couldn't this be a typo? The book mentioned should date back to 1980-81, right? That's about the time when the first T-72s should have become available in GDR if I'm not mistaken. Couldn't that have been about these first T-72s? In 1980, the T-62 wasn't exactly the most modern of Soviet tanks anymore, even for the NVA.
Could you tell us what the original sentence was?

And that's good to have first-hand sources!:) May I also ask where your Grandfather served, out of curiosity? I mean, the result wouldn't have been the same if he heard about the T-62 while in was leading a tank unit or, say, in Versuchstruppen or material command.

Thanks for the sources anyway!

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Hmm thanks for mentioning the typo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
I was at my uncles house on christmas and he has a second production run version of the book and there you see it actually says T-72 in there...

I also talked to my grandpop again.
It seems they actually tested T-62 near Stendal in the late 1970s, seems they got em directly from the soviets shipped over just for that. Seems they were quite happy about that tank and there were even some typed up for purchase but that was cancelled when the actualy order for T-72s went out 81.
"Funny" thing is he was quite sure about it when we discussed it all when helped a little for an earlier SPMBT build, even claimed he has seen upgraded variants, but that then might have been T-72s or something.

Until the 1973 my Grandpa was Batallion CO in the "Erzgebirge" near the FRG/GRD/CZ border.
After that he was in "Wehrbezirkskommando" Potsdam responsible for the seciton regarding mobilization of regulars and reserves, and then then from 1982-87 he was first assistant Chief of Staff and then Chief of Staff for the whole Kommando.
Apart from that my uncle's did spend their three years in the mid 80s and my father was in the border guards until 'the end'... Was even scheduled for duty in Berlin on November 11th 1989...

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

problem in 1981 OBB for E. Germany:2nd line tanks have a T-55A with a newer gun then the standard tank company's T-55A. The 2nd line version has model 1977 gun, with higher sabot penetration, the standard has a 1960 model gun with lower sabot penetration.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

OK great to have an inside account on this as well - so now, however, we can finally agree that they never had T-62s. Again, AFAIK the only WP country that actually got T-62s was Bulgaria.

If you look at the (real) East German OOB at various times then you see (with sources such as the book I mentioned) then you see how big the difference of, say, theoretically available equipmnt to the Soviets was, when compared to what was made available to WP countries and how long it took to equip their units with any relevant numbers. In the late 60s/early 70s, MMR divisions still had a fair share of upgraded T-34/85s, and in the late 70s/early 80s these were exchanged for T-54s, and so on. But even at that time, a lot of T-34s were still in storage as a emergency reserve... and would have shown up on the battlefield - in an extreme case, imagine a t-34/80 unit against the very first M-1s or Leo2s... but it could have happened.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

yeah, thats definetly confirmed no T-62s in E. German service.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Well, the T34s weren't kept maintenanced in the 80s anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif At least not in Potsdam military district...

It's always good to remember that the T-55 was "the" MBT, with an emphasis on main, in the NVA, and many upgrades were produced in country. Better sights, range finders (my father told me a friend of him in a tank batallion said they even got laser range finders for them in 1988...) Mostly all the stuff we could produce that the soviets couldn't do as good. .. Unfortunately it'S nearly impossible to find actual written documents on all that as its not publicly available, as nobody bothers to make it so...

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Upgraded and modernized T-55s could still knock out the bulk of NATO armor.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

I think so to especially with the improved HEAT warheads coming online in the mid 80s Leo A1, Challengers and M60s would be well within reach of them.
As I said it's a pity I couldn't find any real info, so we can't have it in the game...

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

mr_clark: I assume you speak german, so get the book I mentioned above, and if you're mostly into tanks, there's another one by Mr. Spielberger on NVA's tanks with even more details, I havent seen it though.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Found an interesting link with info on the NVA structure and equipment:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=5528

This part lists the different divisions and the basic AFV's:
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=5529

Check out the 6th MSD, its got T34's and JSII's as late as 1987. Anyone has more on this?

Narwan

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

hah, on axishistory.com

the info on the 6th MSD says as of 1957 not 87.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

You're right. The other division OB's are of 1987 and I jumped the gun assuming they all were.

Narwan

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Hmm I'll to get a look at it. Though I personally don't really like Motorbuch, they're quite biased sometimes. (IV'e got a horrible book on Green Berets from 'em...)

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

anyone know why DDR BTR-60/70 aren't given any AP ammo for their 14.7mm guns? without it you can't damage even lightly armoured APCs.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

Same for their BRDM-2 variant, btw.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

That has been corrected ( as well as the SPW-40P2 )in the V3 OOBs for East Germany and a few others as well

Don

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

thanks alot, really nice work guys.

OOB error reports
 

I'd planned to create a post regarding OOB error reporting sometime this weekend but I think I'll use this one as an example right now. This is not in any way meant to dump on "Smersh" because a lot of others do exactly the same thing. I just happened to notice this today so for this example you can all take the "you" to mean YOU.


First off, providing the unit number is mandatory if you think you've found an error with a specific tank in an OOB. Telling me it's a T-55A only wastes my time. There are three T-55's in the EG OOB. I have 92 OOB's in WinSPMBT to look after and 36 more in WinSPWW2. Most people poke around less than a half dozen OOB's so if you want to get a perceived problem fixed then telling me the unit number of the "problem" unit goes a long way to getting it fixed

OK that "second line" tank would be unit 364 . It carries a 100mm D10T 77 gun and has an in service date starting 1980 and runs to 1991. The other T-55 ( that would be unit 9 ) that is in the regular tank companies starts in 1963 and runs to 1979...... hold on......the line tank in service date ends BEFORE the upgraded T-55 goes to the reserve units. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

So where's the problem ?

Let's look at the other T-55a in service at the same time as the reserve T-55a. That would be unit 329 and it's a CS= CLOSE SUPPORT TANK and it's only finds a home in the CS Tank Co - Available: 01/65-09/90 and the CS Tank Pl - Available: 01/65-09/90. It's primary job is to put HE on targets, it doesn't even HAVE sabot since fighting other tanks is not it's purpose. It has some HEAT rounds for self protection against tanks but it's primary purpose is to support infantry and for that it has nearly double the HE of a "normal" T-55 ands since the HE kill and HEAT penetration are the same for both the model 60 and the model 77 gun/ammo there would be no need to "upgrade" the gun because when we upgrade the gun we are usually upgrading the ammo issued and in this case the only upgrade is to Sabot and the CS tanks are not issued with SABOT.

So this "error" isn't an error at all and every time someone posts an error report like this it's only a matter of time before I ignore them and deal with the ones that give me clear info to work with and don't take big chunk of time to sort out.

The REAL ERROR that NOBODY else caught wasn't that the CS tank has an old gun ( because it's irrelevant to it's purpose ) but that the T-55a that went to reserve status is given the upgraded "gun" ( ammo ) but not given any SABOT rounds to fire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

And that's the information I've added to my "future upgrades" list and really, all I needed in that case would have been something like this.......

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
East German OOB unit 364 has an upgraded gun/ammo but has not been given SABOT for that weapon ( weapon 90 )
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

And that's something I can find and fix in a minute or two. The first "error message" took 45 minutes to sort out. Guys.... I don't HAVE 45 minutes to spend on every OOB error OK ? If you have something to report make it concise and to the point, give me all the info YOU WOULD NEED if someone was reporting it to you and keep the verbiage to a minimum. I don't want a history lesson.

Now, if you want to report something like "Country X never had tank Y" you better be willing ( cheerfully ) to provide a source I can check because I will always assume the OOB is correct until proven wrong. If you know they never had a vehicle then you know where to find the proof. Don't expect me to take your word for it unless you are willing to back up what you say. If you do not want to back it up expect the report to be ignored

Some of the existing OOB error reporting threads are getting a little long in the tooth So I will be unsticking them and letting them drift away and I will set up a new thread where errors that are found can be reported

Don

Re: OOB error reports
 

sorry I wasn't clear in my post. I'll follow the new error reporting format, next time I post about an OBB problem.

the East German OBB has both 2nd line tank formations and CS tank formations. (both are CS-MBT unit class, but 2nd line tanks carry standard ammo load out)

It's strange too me that the 2nd line version of the T-55A (unit 364) in the 2nd line tank formations, should carry a newer gun, model 1977, then the T-55A (unit 11) in the regualr tank formations which carry a model 1960. common sense would say it should be the other way-round. In this 3 year period between 1980 and 1983, it forces you to have to make an odd decision to chose 2nd line tank units to get a newer T-55A.

one simple solution would be to have unit 11 end in 1980. But this would leave no T-55s in standard tank formations. The only tank avialable would be the T-72

Re: OOB error reports
 

It's not a differrent gun, it's different ammo for the gun. Thye're all 100mm D10T 's. The number following refers to ammo quality. The D10T 60 (weapon 089) has sabot rounds with APCR 24, the D10T 77 (weapon 090) has APCR 30 (better sabot rounds) and the D10T (weapon 091) 79 has APCR 32. It's the same gun each time but with different, newer, ammo.
For the year I checked (1986) the regular companies had 79's, the CS companies a pick from 60's and 79's and the 2nd line companies from 60's and 77's. Seems fine to me?

Narwan

Re: OOB error reports
 

I think this problem only occurs between in 1980 and 1983. In 12/1983 unit 11 ends avaliablity.

I realize that it just ammo differences but still strange that a 2nd line should have newer ammo then standard formations.

It only a small window where it's a problem but it bothered me when playing a 1981 battle.

Re: obat36 East Germany
 

About the book again: Believe me, this one is something different... not that kind of Tom Clancy-Style crap. And it was quite cheap, too.

Error report
 

Unit 718 - 2S3m - introduction was from 1978-1986 (currently available in the game from 01/88!), ammo loadout: 46 grenades (usually 4 of them HEAT);

Unit 39 - SFL M1974 (= 2S1): introduced 1981-1988 (currently 1976)

T-72s: The first 35 were delivered in 1978 (currently available from 01/1973!);

source: as above -

Kopenhagen, Wilfried: Die Landstreitkräfte der NVA, Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart; 2. Auflage, 1999; ISBN 3-613-01943-4

Re: OOB error reports
 

There IS NO PROBLEM ! the UPGRADE to that "gun" is the SABOT ammo and the CS tanks DO NOT USE SABOT so the "upgrade" applies to the reserve tanks becasue they got the sabot upgrade and the CS tanks, who's purpose is to provide infanrtry support NOT fight tanks don't get the "upgrade" becasue they don't get the shells that consitute the upgrade.

OK?

Don

Re: OOB error reports
 

Guys I'm locking this thread because it's been around since the beginning and it's a PITA to wade through. Start a new one for East Germany.

Don

Re: Error report
 

So there was no SP arty in the East German Army after 1988 ????

Don

Re: Error report
 

So this thread has been 'unlocked again?

Anyway - with introduction I meant: delivers, entry into service... of course these systems (2S1 and 2S3) were available until the reunification.

Re: Error report
 

I originally locked it, if you bother to read what I actually wrote , because this one was getting too large and dealt with a lot of issues that had already been repaired in the EG OOB . I suggested a new "East German" thread could be started that dealt with more recent OOB issues but nobody started a new thread so I unlocked this one so I could ask this question because your original answer was ambiguous.

It is not common practice to refer to a unit with a range of "introduction" dates. It's not the least bit important for game purposes that units were bought over an 8 year time period and when you wrote that the 2S3m was "introduced" from 1978-1986 it sounded like that was the in and out of service dates. There are plenty of weapons systems that exist for less time or are taken OOS due to goverment cutbacks. All we are interested in is when they were first put into service and when they went out of service. It's not important that it took 8 years to buy them all and there is no reason to assume that .... "of course these systems (2S1 and 2S3) were available until the reunification" when I am given a range of dates

This issue has now been corrected in the EG OOB

Don