obat44 - West Germany
 

Panzerfaust 3 was officially accepted and introduced on the 30th September 1992 and replaced both "leichte Panzerfaust 44mm" and "schwere Panzerfaust 84 mm Carl Gustav" during the next months. (no idea how long it took)
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/panzerfaust3.html

Training for the later one had even ceased in '88, as far as I know from own experience. After all, serial production of the Panzerfaust3 already started in '89.

In game term this would mean starting the Pzfaust 3 in 9/92 and ending Pzfaust 44mm in 12/92 and maybe the Carl Gustav in 12/87. Btw., it was the M2 that the Bundeswehr was and is using.

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

9/92? I know I'm just bickering about but maybe somewhat later for most units? If the first batch was handed out to the material command in September, it should take some months before regular units recieved launchers, warheads, spares, training...
BTW, maybe you have info on which units recieved it first? I mean paras, Jaegers, PzGren... in which order?

IIRC, the Bundeswehr used it some more years as a signal flare launcher. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif that reains me of something...
Mmh, wasn't the US M-202 Flash Launcher meant to be primarily a signalling device, plus the advantage of "making enemy AFVs button up"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
See what I mean? What about a CG-M2 as infantry flame for some units? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
Could add some punch...

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

So much for individual subjective impressions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

I can tell you first hand that I life-fired PzFaust 44mm while training my platoon in Grundausbildung in 1994 in Ehra-Lessin and Haltern and also was trained on Carl-Gustav while being at KTS-2 in Munster, 1990.

Maybe you might want to dig deeper into this issue and can come up with some more substantiated data than what can be found on a website ? I guess we need some sensible data from when to when we have overlap dates because equipment didn´t cease to be used from one day to another but is faded out gradually.

cheers

Helge

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Exactly that is what we used it for while being on a reserve officers course "Kompaniegefechtschiessen" in Hammelburg 1995.

cheers

Helge

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Helge, would be great if you read my postings a little bit more accuratly:

1) Carl Gustav wasn't used in antitank role as early as '88. In '88/'89 we had 3 per PzGren Kompanie, but NO(!) ammo at all. We were told the new PzFst would come soon, and that it wasn't clear if and what for the old Carl Gustavs would be used in the future.
It is still used for battlefield illumination - and only in that role. But we don't have battlefield illumination in SPMBT.

2) Delivery of PzFst3 to the troops started in '92. Considering that it was in development since '72 IIRC, it is not that amazing that for basic training the old lPzfst 44mm Lanze was still used in '94, especially as the systems are not that different.


And if you don't trust one source on the web, here some more remark from those which "have been there, done it" ... :
"Dass die schw PzFst durch die PzFst3 abgelöst wurde wie auf vielen Seiten beschrieben, stimmt meines Wissens so nicht. Die PzFst3 wurde 1992 in die Bw eingeführt, und zu diesem Zeitpunkt wurde mit der schw PzFst schon nur noch Gefechtsfeldbeleuchtung geschossen. Mit Einführung der PzFst3 wurden dann die leichten Panzerfäuste 44mm im Tausch zurückgeliefert."
http://www.fussle.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5998

"That the SchwPzFst was replaced by the PzFst3, as described in multiple sources, is as far as I know not correct. The PzFst3 was introduced in 1992, and at that point the SchwPzFst was already only for battlefield illumination. With the issuing of the PzFst3 the lPzFst 44mm where returned in exchange."

"Zur schw Leuchtbüchse selbst nach was: Richtig ist, das die Leuchtbüchse nicht der direkte Vörgänger der PzFst 3 ist. Das war, wie ebenfalls richtig erwähnt, die lPzFst "Lanze". Die Leuchtbüchse ist normalerweise in der selben Anzahl wie das PARS Milan vorhanden. Denn dafür wurde die Büchse im Dienst gehalten. Wenn man sich mal die Schußweite, in der die Leuchtbüchse genutzt wird anschaut, wird klar, das sich die mit knapp 2000m ziemlich genau mit der der Milan deckt. Denn am Anfang der nutzung der Milan gab noch kein MIRA für die Milan. Das heißt das PARS war nicht nachtkampffähig. Und damit man die Milan auch bei Nacht einsetzen kann, man die Leuchtbüchse vorgesehen. "

Ok, I'm too lazy to translate this entirely. Basically it says, that there always were the same numbers of "Schwere Leuchtbüchse" and Milan ATGMs, which didn't have night vision equipment in the first version. the range of the "Schwere Leuchtbüchse" was essentially the same (2000m) as the range of the Milan, to make it possbile to use the Milan for night fighting.
[Our Milans had MIRA imaging equipment..., so we didn't need the Carl Gustavs for battlefield illu]

All in all, I must say it's astonishing difficult to get any hard facts about Bundeswehr equipment at all. Not because it's top-secret (it's still a conscript army), but because everything is so obscure and mixed-up and unsure (because it's a conscript army ?!).

However, I'll try to get official data about Panzerfaust, Milan I and II, the Marder and other items. May take some time, though....

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Hehe, you did write this bit. no ?

Look we need some consensus which works reasonably close to reality in game terms. That´s why I asked for overlap dates. All we need to know is:

PzFst44 intro date: [fill in sensible date here]
PzFst44 extro date: not earlier than 09/1994

PzFst3 intro date: not earlier than 09/1992
PzFst3 extro date: [fill in sensible date here]

Carl-G. intro date: [fill in sensible date here]
Carl-G. extro date: not earlier than 09/1990 as AT-weapon [1]

That´s it. Nothing more, nothing less. And please keep in mind that the fact that a given PzGrenBtl. didn´t use a kind of equipment after a given date anymore does NOT! necessarily mean the whole Bundeswehr did not use this kind of equipment anymore.

Good info you came up with so far. I will be pleased to read more on the issue. Keep it up!

cheers

Helge

[1] Being trained to fire this beast in AT-role at Panzertruppenschule does mean something about its use in the Bundeswehr, don´t you think ?

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Hi all,

I have found a very good page that informs a lot when it comes to modern armarment of the german army.

http://www.deutschesheer.de/relaunch...829LC297PTILDE

Though it is written in germany... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Anyways, I think I have found few flaws in WG OOB:

*The page informs that Carl Gustav is still in use
*Where is this new Puma IFV
- http://www.army-technology.com/projects/puma_tracked/
*PzH 2000s rate of fire is 4, it should be more than Paladins.
("...Paladin M109A6 achieves a maximum firing rate of up to 8 rounds per minute or 3 rounds per 15 seconds, and a sustained firing rate of 1 round per three minutes...") and ("...This provides rates of fire of 3 rounds in less than 10 seconds...The firing rate of the PzH 2000 was 12 rounds in 59.74 seconds, and 20 rounds in 1 minute 47 seconds...")

Sources:1.) http://www.army-technology.com/projects/pzh2000/
2.) http://www.army-technology.com/projects/paladin/

*Mtn Scouts have no Morale nor Experience mod +3 which is common add on to every scout units
*Ranger units in many (if not every) OOB's have +5 or greater Morale mod and Experience mod. WG do not have.
*Some modern units are missing as the page informs

Should these things be corrected in a future update?

Cheers,
Olli

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Obviously, it's the official army homepage .. should be written in german, shouldn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Sadly, it does not give any information about dates, which is so thoroughly needed.

But there's an english version as well - simply hit the button for the "english version" on the front page. Haven't checked the info provided, though ..
http://www.deutschesheer.de


Actually, it is not in use as antitank weapon any more. It's says it's only used for illumination purposes.
Our problem here is - noone seems to now when it was officially phased out, and more important,at which point it was practically out of service because of ammo shortage, umwillingness to carry it along/ train with it and maybe even poor maintenance / missing spare parts
The OOB says 12/87 atm, and I tend to agree.

Good question. It is decided it will be build and bought, at last.
The information on that site is outdated, btw.:
Only "Schutzstufe A" and "Schutzstufe C" armor variants will be build (with 32/43 ton weight).
Here are some more pages about Puma:
http://www.freundeskreis-panzergrenadiere.de/87.0.html

So we would only need 2 different versions in the OOB -

• the airlift configuration, with low side armor, resistant to 14,5mm anti-equipment snipers and arty shrapnel; resistant to conventional 30mm AP and RPG-7 from the front and grazing hits on the flanks
• full armor config; 30mm and RPG-7 on 3 sides

Btw., applying those armor kits (9-10 tons!) is definitly not within the time frame of a WinSPMBT battle - in fact, they are still not sure how the grunts are supposed to handle the armor slabs at all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Furthermore, it should have high general survivability, as it is build to soak up mine hits and the enemies' first shot (which he is likely to have in urban environment and peacekeeping missions) and high armor values on the turret, as it is unmanned and sealed vs. the interior.

These are, as well as the various snipers, pretty generic units which do no exists in that form. I'm not sure how to "tie" them to real units, and therefore, which qualitiy to asign to them.
In general, I would leave them as they are and rate the "normal" troops waayyy lower .. a good deal of those conscripts are "Kampftrinker" (does anyone know to translate that?) and the officers jerks, but nothing more.

which ?

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Quite off-topic, but he's right.
SP howitzers tend to be strangely rated. PzH 2000 is meant to be fully automated, Crusader-like, so should have better ROF and maybe FC (don't know if FC applies to indirect fire artillery?), maybe also better gun accuracy.
Same with the French AUF-1 GCT. Starts growing old, but it was nevertheless one of the first 155mm SPA with semi-auto loading and 5 rounds ready to fire (kind of autoloader). That should give both of these a huge ROF, and according cost. Gentlemen, in the Iraqi oob, the AUF-1 is even cheaper than the 2S1, which is good quality, but 122mm and 10 years older!

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Perhaps the REASON everyone finds it difficult to pin down exact dates IS BECAUSE they were not all sent to the junkyards the minute they became " obsolete " by more modern equipment. If people were training with it then it's available even though it might be technically out of service. Had a conflict arose, there is a very good chance those "training weapons" would have been used for their orignal purpose. It a grey area. If it wasn't there wouldn't be as much debate as there is.

Don

Re: obat44 - West Germany-puma
 

The problem I have with the Puma ATM is there are only drawings of it. Nobody seems to have an actual photo of one in the field ( at least, I haven't found one yet ). Even the dimensions are listed as "Unspecified". It's hard to build an Icon from that. I can guess but for example a Warrior weighs about 23 tons. The STRYKER about the same ( a little less ) The Puma will be 31 tons and 43 with the armour package. That's a lot of weight for 8 troops so it would be nice to know width and length

Don

Re: obat44 - West Germany-puma
 

Has any single one prototype been built yet? The thing is meant to be fielded in 2009 (after the German future warrior program), so it may be still mainly 3D mockups and maybe some plant layouts.

The prolem is the same with many future combat programs, the US FCS for one. How should this one be drawn into an icon yet?

Maybe some provisional versions could be done?

Re: obat44 - West Germany-puma
 

Puma Info
technical data
max. construction weight 43 t
weight (Schutzstufe A) 31,45 t
weigth (Schutzstufe C) 40,7 t
crew 9 (6+3)
max roadspeed 70 km/h
power to weigth ratio 20 kW/t
length 7.330 mm
width 3.430 mm
hight (overall) 3.050 mm
from http://www.kmweg.de/Schuezenpanzer/s...a_content.html

Those graphics from http://www.freundeskreis-panzergrenadiere.de/132.0.html should be big enough to make an icon ?!

Puma Gun
Rheinmetall Waffe Munition Mauser MK 30-2 (as in Ulan/Austria and Pizarro/Spain), max range 3000m
2 types of ammo:
APFSDS-T-Munition, 63mm HRA, should penetrate M60 up to 1.500m
ABM/KETF-Munition, preprogrammed airburst out to 2500m, very high HEkill
http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/inde...amp;query=Puma

Puma Prototype
A first one should be finished this year, but isn't up to now, AFAIK.

Re: obat44 - West Germany-puma
 

The problem here is the model is not specified so is it 3.43 m wide with or without the extra 12 tons of armour? Those are *probably* the specs for the A model but that's an assumption. From the looks of the drawings the armour package could easily add the equivalent of an extra 2 pixels to either side of the Icon and 2 pixels may sound like nothing but it makes a big difference when the vehicle is only 48 pixels long and 23 wide. When you add 2 pixels to the width of each side it adds nearly 20% to pre armour package width. If those numbers are for the C model then we get into more assumptions making the A version narrower

The other problem is there isn't even a runner built and details can change a lot between the drawing board and the production vehicle. The German parliament may have approved it but governments change and although this *seems* likely --so have other things in other nations. In a couple of years there will be firmer information

Don

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Thanks for clearing things!

Heh! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I tried that English page but it didn't work properly. I don't know much German so I tried to figure those missing units from the German pages. Which was difficult!

http://www.deutschesheer.de/relaunch...829LC297PTILDE

I have served in Finnish defense forces for six months and I must say that if Finlands base experience is 75 so should be Germanys too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Still I disagree with you that those experience and morale mods should be untouched. In general scouts have those 3 and so should mountains scouts have. And in general rangers have 5 - 15 and so should WGs mountain troops have. WG is the only country I've found that doesn't have it. Although haven't espesially looked for it.

Back to those missing units. I feel that following units are missing:

* Leichter Transporthubschrauber UH-1D
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...8CH9Q307SWINDE
* Mehrzweckhubschrauber NH90
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...8CGMJ417SWINDE
* There are 4 different trucks: 5t, 7t,10t and 15t
*Motorcycle scouts??
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...8CH26459SWINDE
*Mungo??
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...VNFEY332RHAHDE

I searched all these in that page I mentioned... with my poor German. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

BTW are those Para ATVs really expired after year 2005?

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

A few points I came across through the German OOB:

Fennek first:

Isn't 1998 quite early for a service date?
From the official BW site, I'd tend to say 2001 at first.

Furthermore, it seems that a FO version (VB) is planned for the near future. Sensor suite stays the same, armament is changed to a MG3 AAMG.

I am searching for an official source about this, but to no avail yet. Here are some pics:
http://www.primeportal.net/apc/fennek.htm
And I got a source from the German publication "Soldat und Technik", April 2003: "Die modernste Artillerie der Welt und ihre Defizite", stating that as of 2002, 38 Fennek VB were due to be fielded by January 2004.

And what about the designation?
I heard something about "SpPz-2" (Spähpanzer, armored scout vehicle), but the official seems to be still "Spähwagen leicht 4 Rad FENNEK", which is quite hard to sum up.


Other matter is the Wiesel:

AFAIK the MK in "Wiesel MK" stands for "MaschinenKanone", that is, Autocannon.
In that perspective the current "Wiesel 1 MK TOW" in the game sounds strange?
I am pretty sure about this, but surely there are German veterans around here with better info on this.

Cheers all,

Plasma

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Well there are much probs in the german OOB.

i corrected a few ones:

a) Mountain troops now have better exp + mor than normal grunts. they are now a little weaker than para but better than normal
b) Border guards ( which is meant "bundesgrenzschutz" i think ) should have also a bit better exp + mor then normal troops since these were no conscripts. Also they were in service minimun untill the fall of the wall.
c) PZH 2000 has now 1 more ROF ( also the question was asked above, if it should be also a bit more accurate and therefore a bit more expansive ? )
d) SP arty prices a bit changed ( 109 A3 was a bit too pricey for example )
e) Dornier 205 heli is now correct named "Bell UH 1D"
f) The ammo load f. SP mortars is correctd ( for example the hotchkiss SPmortar should have fewer ammo than the M113 )
g) The Luchs is now 1 size smaller and much faster than in the orig. OOB. there it was only 23 fast, much too low !

Shall i upload this OOB here ? I mean it is the minimun that everyone should have.

But there are more things that need to be looked at:

a) Missing troops: KSK commandos
b) Missing troops: Heimatschutztruppe
c) Missing vehicle: Scorpion minelayer
e) Missing weapon: Bunkerfaust
f) Missing weapon: Fliegerfaust 2
g) Wrong weapon: Armbrust for engineers (??) INFO ??
h) Is the 120mm mortar Wiesel already at the troops ?? I know it is planned.

Also i wonder why have the L44 120mm only 11 accuracy while the russian 125mm has 13 ? Thought german weapon is better than russian ?

Also i think some of the russian stuff should be a tad cheaper...

Thanx. Please discuss ! Also feel free to add above missing troops esp. the KSK !

@ plasma: Think ur right with your points also !

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Alpha:

a) KSK commandos: are you sure that would be useful in the game? heavy enough assets for conventional warfare?

c) Scorpion minelayer: no. no other answer, no way, that's what the team says, if you want to ask them. Too much disequilibrating in the gameplay, FASCAM is meant to be sufficient. Of course you can mod what you want for your own pleasure, but don't await onboard mineplanters in the official version

e) Bunkerfaust: confirmation about it being in service in the BW?

f) Fliegerfaust 2 = FIM-92 Stinger. Just the same, check the official webpage. Maybe the name should be changed to "Fliegerfaust 2" for the weapon or unit, if it is the official name from now on. First time I hear it though!

h) planned, should check the service date. BTW, no other useable Wiesel II versions in service, only SAM, engineer recon and ambulance AFAIK.

And are you sure that the "border section" of the game is what you think it is? Apparently the only link with the BGS is a possible faraway filiation. The Bundeswehr was founded in 1955, right? So any units before are to be considered out of any BW context, any current context actually.

And about gun accuracy, the discussion is going on (hotly), and the most reasonable pointI heard is that the FC and rangefinder values influence the result much more than actual gun accuracy, which matches the real stuff.

Oh, and generally, all the prices are automaticaly calculated on common bases, which means that the prices are meant to be fair considering the content.

Otherwise, I think you got several points!

Cheers,

Plasma

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

>>>>> KSK commandos: are you sure that would be useful in the game? heavy enough assets for conventional warfare?

mhh.. other nations also have commando troops in oob. like russian speznas, SAS etc...

>>>>>e) Bunkerfaust: confirmation about it being in service in the BW?

i read a article in the web somewhere. this is just a pz. faust3 with special warhead for bunkerbusting. so only the name and warhead must be changed i guess.

>>>f) Fliegerfaust 2 = FIM-92 Stinger. Just the same, check the official webpage. Maybe the name should be changed to "Fliegerfaust 2" for the weapon or unit, if it is the official name from now on. First time I hear it though!

okay, then i think the fliegerfaust 1 must be the redeye. fliegerfaust is def. the "off. name" since before 2 weeks or so i was at luftwaffe show where they had this weapon.

>>>>h) planned, should check the service date. BTW, no other useable Wiesel II versions in service, only SAM, engineer recon and ambulance AFAIK.

well any knowledgeable person could check when it could be becoming serviceable and add it.

>>>>And are you sure that the "border section" of the game is what you think it is? Apparently the only link with the BGS is a possible faraway filiation. The Bundeswehr was founded in 1955, right? So any units before are to be considered out of any BW context, any current context actually.

mhh.. don´t know. it is also not that important. best would be to delete the border section at all, since it gives not much more value or differences to normal light infantry.


so if any person with more time to research the stuff reads this, would be fine. i will make 3-4 changes to my oob and post it here so everyone can use this as a base.

i also think there should be a special air assault ( or sumthing like that ) section that fit´s in wiesel apc....

thanx....for contribution.

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

http://www.panzerbaer.de/archiv/seite_f.htm

early 50ties bundesgrenzschutz soldiers....

http://www.panzerbaer.de/archiv/bw_f...ewe_2004-a.htm

these some exercise photos from 2004.

excellent site + pics IMHO.

Re: obat44 - West Germany *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Alpha

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

How long was the M8 in west German service??

Don

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

ca. 1960 i think, but not bundeswehr but bundesgrenzschutz ( BGS )

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

so the M8 pictured in http://www.panzerbaer.de/archiv/seite_f.htm
was never used by West German military units only Police?

Don

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

think so, but mind you BGS is paramilitary. they also were tasked in wartimes with semi military tasks. also in conflict WP - NATO they would be one of the first seeing the russians....

AFAIK the BW used M41 buldog as recon tank in the early times, than hotchkiss.

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Your corrections sounds good. I also like the idea of KSK commandos or another Germany Special Force units. Just like for example British SAS which are included.Repricing units sound a bit risky though unitcostcalculator sucks sometimes (Look at prices of on-map BM-22 Uragan and HIMARS) Where can I download your OOB?

Few questions:

*Did you also add extra +3 to Mountain Scouts?
*Is Fuchs with mauser only equipped wiht HP ammos, not AP?
*Does anyone know anything about these Panzerfaust modifications

http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/panzerfaust3.html

Thanks!

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

hi friend,

i decided to not include the KSK, i have not enough knowledge about them. instead i incl. "standard" BGS troops. light inf with a bit better mor + exp. also i incl. bundesmarine divers (kampfschwimmer)...

1. mountain scouts get + 8 ( +5 geb.jaeger bonus + 3 scout bonus ).
2. you mean the fuchs 2 ? i did almost nothing to these future vehicles, since i more focus on present or ca. 20 years past.
3. these pz. faust 3 versions are quite new. i decided against the bunkerfaust since the normal pz. faust 3 is quite good already in the game. the other new version is a new warhead which should defeat ERA armor. i have no idea how to represent this double warhead at the pz.faust, so i leave this out also. but i tweaked the dates of all AT inf weapons: pzfaust3 avail a little later, both other models ( le. pzfaust44 + c. gustav have now longer service times, since the pz.faust 3 came not that fast to all troops, in fact i guess that some troops had to deal with the le. pz.faust quite a while even the pz.faust3 was produced already. )

hope this helps !

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Hi, everybody!

Alpha's German OOBS are now available for download at:
the Armorsite's WinSPMBT page;
or direcly, thru this link: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/WinS...OBpackV2.1.zip

Thank you Alpha, for sharing this excellent work with the WinSPMBT community.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Best regards for everyone,

Fab

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Thanx to Fab for his permission to use his
excellent site.

Here a pic of the new arty screen:

http://www.alpha-q.de/AlphaOOBArtyScreen.jpg

Here a pic of the new misc screen:

http://www.alpha-q.de/AlphaOOBMiscScreen.jpg


Instructions:

Unzip to your CUSTOM ( ! ) OOB folder and select
this OOB with the tool "manage OOB" which is included in WinSPMBT.
To view pics unzip in folder of your choice and open with .jpg viewer
of your choice or internet browser.

Updates done:

Weapons added:
--------------

- HK 502 shotgun
- 2 police weapons
- Roland 2 AA missile

Units added:
-----------

- Polizei Trupp ( represent civil police but also "Feldjaeger of the Bundeswehr )
- Bundesgrenzschutz troops ( BGS - paramilitary German forces without conscripts so a bit better exp + morale than normal grunts - only light inf. weapons though )
- Luftwaffe Sicherung ( LW - Sich, these are LW troops mainly for the protection of airfields, Nato bunkers, radars, AA instalations etc. - light inf weapons, trucks and AA )
- Kampfschwimmer ( elite diver troops of the Bundesmarine )
- Engineer tank Dachs ( impr. version of PioPz. 1 )
- Roland 2 SPSAM ( impr. version of Roland 1 )
- AA MG unit ( Fla MG )
- Bulldozer ( Mehrzweck Raupe - use like eng. tanks )
- Armored trucks ( gep. LKW ) ( represents armored trucks like in use at the balcans KFOR )
- some fort types added
- modernized heavy helo
- Mountain guns have now also + 5 morale + exp.
- packmules for mountain troops added ( Germany uses them still AFAIK )
- 81 mm M3 halftrack instead 120mm ( early Bundeswehr )
- Kraka Para transport

Most of these units you´ll find in the "misc" folder.....

Mountain troops now have +5 mor + exp, PzH2000 upgraded with +1 ROF and some firecontrol for direct fire that they are capable of for self defense, but a bit more expensive, Bell UH1D has now correct name, SP mortars ammo loadout ( HS30 and Hotchkiss lowered, Hotchkiss was small tank! but M113 has more ammo ), Tampella mortars now have slightly better range + accuracy compared to older ones and are a bit more expensive, Alouette heli carry lowered, Luchs now is really usefull and represents better real capability of this tank, Wiesel 1 + 2 names and weapon loadout ( had too much missiles in orig. OOB ), Stinger is called Fliegerfaust 2 in Germany, impr. Hawk SAM date corrected ( became much later available as in orig. OOB ), Roland loadout now correct ( 2 missiles in launcher, 8 in magazine ), most names of arty and misc formations changed ..and much other stuff. ( for example i found a wiesel in the orig OOB with 21 (!!) TOW missiles - corrected to real loadout of 8 ! )

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

This migth be a problem. The PzGrKp in the mid-80's have a 7 man command element. However the Marder 1 A2 only takes 6. Is this correct? I can see that the A2+ with its MILAN kit would have less space than the A1, but why has the A2 one less carrying capacity than the A1?

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

No problem here. All A2s have a carrying capacity of 6 men, that was a result of the Milan upgrade in the 80s. The (+) only tells you whether the milan is mounted (+) or dismounted. Dismounting the Milan does, however, not increase the carrying capacity of the A2.

cheers

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

FC is worthless for off-map units (it is for direct fire)
RF is ditto worthless for off-map units
ROF is worthwhile for both <g>!

Gun ACC value is not worthwhile other than for direct-fire point-target on table missions, either.

gun ranges >= 200 are really only relevant for counter-battery fire between off-map units. They can fire all over the map if on-table assets. Are irrelevant really to on-map arty.

Burst fires - are not really done by this game system. (If so, then the S-tank and the French FL-series autoloaded turrets would have good initial bursts, but the latter at least required bombing up from a hull store, out of fire - and so no real way to simulate with the current mechanisms - and especially try telling the AI how to reload an AMX-13 ?!? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The Swedish bandkanone, as I recall has a 14 or so ROF - and so should empty its 155mm magazine in 1-2 turns..



Cheers
Andy

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

One error spotted:
Grenadier units 216, 217 and 218 have 6 HEAT ammo (at PEN 0) for their G3 rifles.

An OOB question:
Why are german regular rangers (unit 423) 19 points per squad (8/89) and the heavy rangers (unit 429) only 15? The only difference I can spot is that the heavy's have a grenade launcher (with 36 rounds) where the regulars have hand grenades (18 only). If anything I'd expect the heavy's to be more expensive. Hand grenades do have double the HE factor but the grenade launcher has double the ammo, a range of 7 and limited AT capability (HEAT 5).

Some questions for general information:
What does the 'MTW' stand for? How are these companies part of larger formations (battalions, brigades, etc)? I suspect they are a heavy inf AT cie for 'Grenadier' battallions or brigades. Can anyone shed some light on that for me? Thanks,

Narwan

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

So then ones company use both A1 and A2/A2+, or you leave the company comander on foot (the 7 man company comandsquad won't fit A2/A2+). I'm not used to companies carrying 2 diffrent models of APC.

Halstein.

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Obviously unit 252 needs to be reduced from 7 to 6 men and the problem is solved.

cheers

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

narwan, i didn´t do much changes to existing inf + armor formations....so i probably overlooked the errors you mentioned. but i don´t think they are so severe.

MTW = Mannschafts Transportwagen usually this are M113 in the german army or Fuchs, but Fuchs have own formations in the game...

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

MTW = Mannschaftstransportwagen M113

In the 80s-90s (Heeresstruktur 4) every PzGrenBtl was structured roughly the following way:

-1st Coy "Staff and Logistics"

-2-3rd Coy "SPz Marder" capable of mounted and dismounted combat

-4rd Coy "MTW M113" capable of dismounted combat only

-5th Coy "PzMrs Coy" Mortar on M113, fire support coy

cheers

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Alpha, thanks for the info. I haven't checked out your alternative obat (yet). It's one of many things on my mental 'to do' list! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

DesertFox, I typed this reply to Alpha before I properly read yours, thanks!

I did find out though how the MTW cie fits into the scheme of things. I remembered a tabletop wargame magazine my brother has with a NATO v WP game in it and lots of (very good) back ground articles. One of those goes into great detail on the german armed forces organisation.

The MTW cie is part of a regular panzergrenadier brigade. In wartime the brigade goes into a 4 manouvre battallion organisation: 1 with 3 tank cie's, 1 mixed with 2 mech cie's (IFV's) and 1 tank cie, 2 with 2 mech cie's (IFV's) and 1 mech cie (APC).
The MTW cie is the mech cie with APC's (M113's whereas the other ones have Marder IFV's). It's probably heavy on the ATGM's because it's parent battallion is lacking MBT's (and hence it's medium-long range antitank capability).

Another interesting tidbit was the fact that upon mobilization 2 'light' infantry battallions are attached to each division HQ. From the stats and description I gather those must be the 'Jaeger' formations in the game.

By far the best stuff though is the descriptions of the units of the german territorial army, which included 6 heavy (2 tank, 2 inf batt's) and 6 light brigades (1 tank, 2 inf batt's).
I'll go and check to see if these are in the game too. I can't remember spotting any 'Heimatschutzen' companies though.

Narwan

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

There are no specific 'Heimatschutzen (HS)' cie's in the game. It looks like the game does cover the tank cie's though since the M48 remains available when it was only in service with the HS brigades.

There are no motorised (truck) infantry cie's though and no mech cie's with M113's only that fit. The ones that are in the game are the MTW cie and the Pnzgrndr AT cie's but these have far too many Milan's in them to be HS cie's.
The problem with the regular Pnzgrndr cie's is that they do field the M113 as an APC choice (implying HS since regular army cie's had the Marder) but the heavy APC choice only allows for Marders. So you always end up with Marders in the cie.
Each HS infantry battallion (truck and APC) is also supposed to have 7 90mm tracked TD's but there's no sign of these anywhere. They disappear after 85. Looks like the HS in the game might need some work...

I also wonder which cie's if any are meant to represent the 15 light infantry home defense regiments and 150 security companies and 300 security platoons tha make up the rest of the territorial army? The regiments in particular are supposed to be capable of conducting conventional battles in the rear area's.

Noticed another thing too, the info I dug up now is very accurate with regards to the cie's and other formations of the regular army except when it comes to SP-ATGM cie's. It's only available in 16 unit cie's in the game while panzerbrigades had a cie of 9 and panzergrenadierbrigades a cie of 12 according to my data (for the 80's), anyone of you know who's right here?

Narwan

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

narwan,

Heimatschutz units are not in this OOB at all.

You can easily create them: take some older equipment ( M48 or leo1, jgdpz. kanone, hotchkiss etc. ) and add some "jaegers" distract some exp and mor, so you have HS units. they were like normal units only old equimpent and of course not as good as normal bundeswehr. they should be mobilized after 48 - 72h of an attack ( whcih was probably wishful thinking ). also note they have onyl light old panzerfausts....

( see my LW sicherungs troops they are quite simmilar but have more recent training anda bit better morale )....

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Actually, two out of the twelve HS brigades were at near full strength in peacetime and under operational control of the field army (one heavy brigade attached to the gebirgsdivision for example).
As to the rest, 2 were manned at 65% of wartime strength, 2 at 52% and the other 6 being equipment pools only and to be 'reconstituted' upon moblisation.

It is possible to create the HS on your own, but since they were an integral part of the german armed forces, (and no small part!) it would make sense IMO if these were to be included in the regular game's obat.

As to the SP-ATGM companies, it looks like the 'Gefechtsfeld 90' reorganisation has been retroactively (and incorrectly) applied in the game with regards to these companies. Under the old 'Army structure four' armor brigades would have a 9 unit cie and mechanized brigades a 12 unit cie, not the later 16 unit cie.

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

do you have those documents on the comp ??


yep, the OOB in the game is quite incorrect...
i agree that HS should be in the game
but also LW and BGS troops ( at least the last 2
i added ) but i have lim. time ATM so i will add
the rest later when my camp is finished. or the
camo ppl. do it themselfes, who knows ?

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

West German OOB has already been fixed as I recall, and will not be changed again before the patch is issued.

If you think there need to be fixes that can be adressed after the patch, and also when you have all decided what exactly needs doing, as this thread is a load of partial fixes, opinions, corrections to opinions and so on. Impossible to really track what is needed or not, amongst the sub-threads etc http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!.

Eventually - I'll want a consolidated change list (in text file or Word or Excel or similar) detailing the needed changes, and the historical documentation/reference/justification for the change(s). (Modified OOBS are worthless as change request documentation as I have not got the time to pick item by item through an undocumented OOB file to see what changes were made. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. And that will need to be based on the issue FRG OOB that comes with the patch.

Cheers
Andy

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

yep, let´s wait for the patch ...

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Hi Andy,

I agree completely with you. I did and do consider the current discussion here one of finding out if and which improvements could or should be made, not concrete suggestions (not yet anyway).

My sources are not online and of a secondairy nature so probably not enough to base big changes on. That's why I've been trying to find confirmation with others here.

Hopefully we'll be able to present you a consolidated change list. Let us do the work, you just check if we did it right! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Alpha,
the article I'm primairily using for reference to the bundeswehr organisation in the 80's is:
"The Bundeswehr, Its mission and its organisation"
by Major Hank Meyer and John Burtt
Appeared in 'Counterattack' issue 1

It's very detailed and well written and includes organisation schematics for Panzer brigades, Panzergrenadier brigades, Heimatschutzen brigade type 5 and Heimatschutzen brigade type 6 as under 'army structure 4'.
Unfortunately the articles does not list sources.
I've got some other articles that support this but nothing really 'solid'.

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Hi again!

Thanks for the updated West Germany OOB. Some of things I pointed out were fixed. For example PzH2000 and troop quality of mountain troops. Plus many more. Now days PzH2000 is a real killer with its armor piercing ammo! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But since the game continues all the way to the year 2020 I wonder why any suspected future armor is not included. Best example is Puma. Earlier it was pointed out that it is hard to make an icon for it but is there also anything else? There are good drawings/scetchs of Puma out in the Net.
I don't know for sure if there are others future stuff coming on but some military pages are implying that yes. Anyone knows better?

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

I noticed that in west german OOB 120mm rheinmetall gun has accuracy 11.All US 120mm guns have acc 14. Maybe a typo?

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Remember all that fuss about the US tank guns being unaccountably less accurate than those Russian guns http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif?

That's why the M256 accuracy was finally shifted to 14 (though that doesn't seem to change much to the game eventually), it was still at 11 some months ago.

Probably there was no time to check out all the other Rh-120 derivates in the various OOBs (23 AFAIK) before the 2.5 release (I know I wouldn't have had time).

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Yes, youre right,it is not a big problem, i just wanna have 200 posts, so i must something to post... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Nearly there, keep trying! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I must say it would be fine to have that fixed indeed, but yes, that's no big deal.