Paratroops Question
 

Is there any way of dropping ATGM or vehicles successfully? Nothing is more annoying to me than building an airborne task force and then having my Airborne Tank designated MGS or Airborne Javelins teams all die after landing.

Re: Paratroops Question
 

On what terrain did you send them?
Dropping onto clear terrain helps, as opposed to sending the guys breaking legs in a rock garden http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Paratroops Question
 

it's clear terrain, no problems, no reason for it. It annoys me too that the normal airborne squads take casualties too. It's pretty rare.

Re: Paratroops Question
 

It pretty rare IRL for airborne troops to take casualties on landing that is. It happens I'm sure, but make it a 1 / 100 chance not the 1 in 15 I seem to always have.

Re: Paratroops Question
 

I had to try this one out myself and found it strange as well so I tested some different Abn ATGM systems and combinations aircraft.

I dropped two french Abn Atgm (Milan) sections in a open grassy field. One of them got destroyed, the other suffered one casualty.

Then I on the same map dropped two brittish para sections, with the same weaponsystem, but this time in the middle of thick jungle and in ondulating terrain. No casualties and they where all ready to fight the next turn.
Both dropped from C130:s in the same scenario.

Does country training factor in on this? Or what is it all about?

Re: Paratroops Question
 

It's about chance rolls - the Brits were lucky.

I'll have a look at the chance factors for real paratroopers, but vehicles are always bad news to throw out of a plane. (In real life they would take 20 minutes or so to unpack from the drop palette, then they would need to be fuelled and loaded from separate palletes of ammo and fuel landed separately). Parachuted vehicles would be dropped empty (including crew!).

- I was going to remove the ability of vehicles to be thrown off planes while dangling on big hankies (It was not a design decision to alow vehicles to drop, it was a side effect the playtesters found, and I was going to remove as an unintended bug, but they persuaded me to leave it in with the above caveat - that the higher casualties were vehicles which were destroyed or renderd unserviceable by the drop http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. Allegedly that balances the fact that surviving ones are ready to roll instantly, instead of an hour or 2 after the drop. I'm still not convinced by that logic myself, Iam of the opinion that vehicle dropping should be removed as unrealistic in the game time frame, but have left it in for those who want the faciltiy, though it's decidedly unrealistic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!

It will go if I get round to doing transport planes that land and take off, like gliders which do not self-destruct, maybe. But that is a back-burner item for a future release. Vehicles ready to roll off a landed transport are more realistic IMHO. (One work-around for now may be to designate a herky bird as a glider in the OOB as a "landing-only" transport plane? - engine noise would be strange though!)


Cheers
Andy

Re: Paratroops Question
 

I was just planning to do something alike (most likely into my traditional dump of wild ideas, UN OOB). After all if I wanted to make some "August 1968" scenario, Soviet paratroopers weren't parachuted on Prague airport, they landed in AN-12's with Aeroflot designations. Then the An-12 Glider Version would come in handy... However dumped off for some time the idea of scenario, so this version of planes is laid aside for a while.

Re: Paratroops Question
 

Oh bloody Mary, it would be great if you had to toss crews and vehicles separatly! It could to an extent further make up for the delay that would exist in real life, by that you have to get the crews to their vehicles! Then you could perhaps lower the amount of destroyed vehicles.

Re: Paratroops Question
 

What about ammo and fuel?

But, yeah, that could add up to the general annoyance called 'realism' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
Especially if the crews jump a half km away from their vehicles, land suppress, pinned, out of contact, and have to walk all the way...
Under arty fire...

Mmh, maybe that would ask for some vehicles to be able to be landed 'ready to move'. Can't really air-droppable vehicles be dropped like that? BMDs for example?

Besides, 'surviving' transport planes could be fine, but I guess there'll have to be something from the level bombers so they can't get used again and again like helos.
Erm, I don't know how far you got into this idea yet Andy, but have how you considered getting round the idea of landing /take off run?
I don't know many airplanes that land in 50 meters...

Re: Paratroops Question
 

The 82nd Airborne drops HMMWV's, (and Sheridans once upon a time) all the time. This is how they do it:

Vehicle Crews drop with the Infantry.
LGOPs (Little Groups Of Paratroopers) form up and take initial objectives.
After the DZ (Drop Zone) is secured, patrols are sent out while additional C-130s are called.
These C-130s contain vehicles secured to pallets
These C-130s drop to low altitude in the DZ, like a few feet off the ground.
A drag chute is deployed, which pulls the palatilized vehicle out of the Hercy Bird.
HMMWVs are secured to the pallet by 4 tie-chains which can be removed in minutes.
The HMMWV is ready for action (although with only 1/4 tank of fuel)
Fuel and other cargo is deployed in special cargo pallets by the same method.

I feel like this can be and should be simulated by SPMBT.

Kevin

Re: Paratroops Question
 

That's a very nice overview. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
How about Soviet tactics, late Cold War? I know Norwegian military handbooks describe vehicles being dropped for use in airborne raids. As a matter of fact, I have only read about the use of airdropped vehicles in B.E.L. raids when the infantry is lifted by chopper (thus without parachuting themselves), but for all I know it could apploy to anything.

Re: Paratroops Question
 

From my stint in the 82nd, I remember that the 'Heavy Drops' (as the tow & scout jeeps, artillery, etc., were called) went out before the troops, since you didn't want those things dropping down on top of your LGOPs. I went on Opereration Bright Star (in Egypt) in 1985 with the advance party, and somehow ended up on the DZ prior to the Heavy Drop (don't ask). It was quite exciting - running around trying to dodge all of these immense bundles hurteling towards the ground. I can assure you you don't want those coming down after the troops.

Unpacking a jeep was very time consumming - lots rope & webbing to cut, and the crushed packing material that has to be pryed out from every nook and cranny underneight the vehicle. If things went very smoothly, it would take 15 minuets. On average, i'd say it took 30 minutes.

Dropping the vehicles for 10' is called LAPES - Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System. i only saw it once, at a VIP (CAPEX) show, because it ruined too many vehicle to do that often. The vehicles had several feet of energy absorbing material (like a heavy corrugated cardboard) beneight them to absorb the shock of landing. It was not easy to free the vehcile from all of this crushed material, certianly harder than undooing four quick release. Dropping a vehicle without this material would likely destroy it, almost as if it were dropped from 10' while traveling forward at 100mph. It is one of those things that looks good in shows, but not in real life.

If you think the US army would would never fake something in a show, think again. I once did a VIP (capex) where one company did the parachute jump, and were instructed to just lay down upon landing. A second company then sprang up a minute or two later, with all their gear unpacked. This took place behind some small rises, so the audiance was suitable impressed with the speed that airborne soldiers could prepare themselves after a jump.

Oh, and we young paratroopers refered to the 'big' women at the bars as 'heavy drops'.

Re: Paratroops Question
 

TEN FEET? Ohwow, I can imagine that, but then again I can't... How was the "bed" shaped, in order not to roll over and crush the vehicle?

Re: Paratroops Question
 

its fun to watch a LAPES and see the pallet have a chute not open. its amazing how far the pallet will go. just need to make sure that the plattet isn't coming your way.

BTW... about 10 years ago the local news team from here was at a demo when there was a major accident. the C130 dropped the LAMPS and then bounced on the ground at the Sicly drop zone. the C130 crew and some others didn't make it. just to highlight how dangerous it is. the crew had be doing that drop for weeks before the drop to show off to the locals.

Re: Paratroops Question
 

Tip for senario desginers: Can't you dismout the Crew for a vehicle and then drop them both seperatly? or would the vehicle start the game as destroyed?

Re: Paratroops Question
 

Good idea to simulate separate dropping. Bound to be doable.

But as Andy said,

So you will have the worst of both worlds if you try that with the present parameters:

Crews landing apart AND half of the crews and vehicles surviving...
Since only the origianl crew can mount a precise vehicle, probability laws will get you with not a single running vehicle... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Paratroops Question
 

AFAIK Russians have tested dropping BMD's with crews in, but due to extreme risk they've decided to limit it only to commander and driver and IIRC later on they've abandoned the practise completely.
IIRC one of the main reasons - after the overall risk - was very bad psychical state of crew during the drop in the vehicle, as they were closed for a long time inside that small metal coffin, with all periscopes covered by bags with parachutes, and they were just waiting until they'll be thrown out of the plane. Not too comforting feeling I'd guess.

Re: Paratroops Question
 

From JED database:
This confirms what you said about early BMDs, but adds its own grain to the problem, since it means some vehicles could be dropped ready, in some extent. This text sounds like manufacturer advertisement, so I won't trust it too much regarding the ability of this thing to roll on without any packaging to remove or parts to mount back on...

Re: Paratroops Question
 

Have anyone run any tests on dropping BMDs? I just did, twice, and not once did I NOT lose a crewman. Perhaps dropping crew separately shouldn't be such a bad idea?
On five out of twelve occasions, I lost both crewmen. These statistics aren't good.
As for BMDs being dropped with the crew inside in real life... I bet the Russian ministry of defense has an expense post in vodka for that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Paratroops Question
 

Is it me or is the 'bail out crew' function not available in the deploy phase? Since I don't have an English keyboard I fumbled for a while looking for it, found it once test game started, but it won't work in the editor.
Anyone knows how to get round this? I was going to test this 'separate crew dropping' technique (still quite sure the survivors would be useless at best) but then...

Re: Paratroops Question
 

Another interesting issue:
My AN-12PB gets shot at as it performs a parachute drop of a platoon of BMDs. It aborts, and the vehicles land among some coastal artillery. Three of the five take two causalties, the other take one each. In the vicinity (1400m) is an armed boat, which opens fire on the remaining BMDs when they hit the ground. BMD A becomes immobile when hit by a 105mm round from the CA, and then the two start amazing me:
BMD B opens fire on the boat, 22% hit percentage, and damages it. BMD A opens fire on the CA, causing one causalty with its MG. Then, it opens fire on the boat and destroys it!!
BMD A has a suppression value of 2. BMD B has 1!!
They ought to be scared out of their boots! Their commander (or driver) has been either killed or severely injured in the landing, and one of them has even lost all hope of moving!
The exp/mor for these lads are about 75. (66 base exp + 10)

Re: Paratroops Question
 

As a paratrooper for most of my career, heavy drops was not the best thing on this planet, great concept, but not worth it. It caused alot of vehicles to be redlined(not working) as soon as they hit the ground. But one thing that was working was LAPEING, deployment of vehicles were quicker, it took out missing drop zones, and it was delivered in less than 30 sec in a ball a dust or snow.
unpacking was alittle different, like a fellow trooper from the 82nd said it took awhile to unpack during his time, I was in the 82nd and the 3rd ranger bat. during the 90's and it is still slow, and if you think unpacking a jeep took awhile try unpacking a hummer.