Recoilless Rifles
 

I stumbled over this item in an older copywrite of the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Today (mid-1970's) one of the most notable weapons of this type (recoilless rifles) is the 84 mm infantry antitank gun that is in common use in a number of NATO countries. In Sweden, where it originated, it is know as the Carl Gustav. It is shoulder-controlled and capable of destroying any know tank at a range of 1,600 feet. Its weight is 36 lbs., and it can be carried and operated by one man; a second man is required to carry the ammunition and act as loader." --Brig. Cyril Nelson Barclay, the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), retired.

I looked around the Encyclopedia in winSPMBT (which I don't really know how to use well) and found something called RBS-69 which looks close but I doubt if I got it right because the PEN is 2 which I don't think would kill "all" 70's era tanks.

Does anyone know winSPMBT's designation for this weapon? It looks like it would be fun to play a pair of them and some recon against an advancing tank platoon.

--Gary

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

Don't woory, it IS in the game. Variously termed Carl Gustav, CG, MAW (Great Britain), or weird-looking numerical designations in nordic countries. Often with M1, M2 or M3 model number.

And basically it is just what it is suppsed to be: a shoulder-fired 84mm RLR, with HEAT or HE warheads.
Penetration is between 40 and 50 in the game, so relate that to the tank armors of that time.
One team carries generally up to 12 shots, so that makes you a team weapon quite comparable to a RPG-7.

You can find it in several countries indeed, among which USA , UK, Germany (W), Netherlands, Portugal, Canada, Sweden, Norway, Denmark...

Oh, and your RBS69 seems to be a SAM missile. Hence the pen=2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

UK OOB: Weapon 29 - 84mm MAW, range 2......... (100m)
Norwegian OOB: Weapon 29 - M2 Carl Gustaf, range 9 (450m)
The Norwegian military has trained its CG gunners in firing at static objects up to 700m (14 hexes!), moving objects at 500. I assume that such a(n annoyingly!) low range-value has been preserved to not make it a superweapon.

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

WOW! Thanks for the quick responses and great info guys!

I'll take a closer look at the WinSPMBT encyclopedia and brew myself up a little "battle" to check it out.

--Gary

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

Also known as REDEYE (for you NATO members), the predecessor to STINGER. RBS69 is just a Swedish designition. RBS stands for Robot-System (Missile System) and that concludes this days course in nordic languages. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

OK, I didn't know RBS-69 = Redeye = FIM-53 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I just knew the Swedish army used to have Redeyes...
But right enough the designations in Scandinavian countries can get quite cryptic, and since they generally buy half of their stuff, then upgrade half of it to the point it is not recognizable, and the other half is domestic design never, ever to be exported...

Anyway, still easier than in China or Japan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif...

On the other matter here, has anyone ayn explanation about this Carl Gustav range thing?

Over quite all the oobs it seems to be range=9 and HEAT pen=50 for M3 and 40 for M2, except in the UK where it only penetrates 42cm at 4 hexes...

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

Harrharr, limeys can't shoot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

That is odd. The CG system today offers a wide variety of ammunitons, some even (according to the manufacturer)capable to punch through MBT armour. Then there is some kind of flechett shell made for jungle warfare that after what I have seen is very devestating.

My point is that the CG systems values in general maybe should be upgraded because it today packs a whole lot more power than back in 1948.

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

One thing we won't be able to do right now, and that I saw in use on the CG, is a tandem-HEAT rocket able of dealing with reactive armor.

Pergite, do you have hard data about old and new CG ammo? I'll chech the Dynamit-Nobel website anyway, but if you have anything first-hand that could be better.

How about range? 450m seems correct to me.

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

This is the information I am sitting on, but its already posted by Saab Bofors Dynamics themselves:

LINK

There you have all the data of the latest ammunition types in .pdf as well as some commercials.


Range totally depends on the target, its speed, your sight system and what ammuntion you are using. With HEAT you can hit a moving (<50km/h) target at ranges of up to 150m. If its stationary and huge increase the range up to almost 400m. HE can be uses up to 700m and Smoke up to 1000m. This however is with old sights and ammuniton. The new rocket assisted HEAT rounds should have the capability to reach targets at around 700m.

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

Depends on what you are talking about exactly. Tactical range is dealt with by both range and accuracy. So if the new RA-HEAT ammo goes up to 700m, you can rocket-assist as much as you like, that alone won't make it more accurate.

Besides, even now the CG is used in Germany to launch light flares (night sighting for Milan without TI). It is reported for ranges up to 2000m (Milan range).
In the game you have the same range for CGs firing HE rounds. Since this is a separate weapon I had assumed it was used in indirect fire, which is senseless for antitank.

But maybe the basic range of most CG versions can be brought up to maybe 1km or so, even if that would be a great blunder for AI and beginners, i.e. they'd fire much earlier for no result and give themselves away.

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

The RA ammo has a higher velocity which means a better trajectory. You dont have to lead moving target as much and the wind wont be such a big factor. All this will increase the accuracy.

The CG can be used in many roles, but SPMBT cant make differences in ranges for the weapon depending on ammo. It would then be the same thing for tanks that fire SABOT and HEAT but I guess they have averaged the range somehow.

The Ilum round for CG is gigantic and since you dont have to hit anything, I guess you can fire it quite far, but 2000 sounds a bit extreme. This because it deploys a parachute at some alitutude.

Yes it would be difficult to handle. I is hard to hit anything at those ranges so I think its better to just increase the range slightly from what its now. But maybe its worth doing some testing to see what works best.

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

You're right. RA will go faster then have a better target alignement. But that only work at the same range. If you increase range, you increase flight time, and the effect if zeroed back. YOu have better accuracy at the same range, but proportionnal accuracy stays the same.

Besides, from what I have read on the Saab site you posted, all CG HEAT ammo (both 551 and 751) are RA, though HEDP isn't. So are there older HEAT shells with no propulsion?

Mmh no, alas there is only overall and sabot range. And for someting as the CG I fear the sabot range value will count as minimum range. What I meant is that if you can lob a HE round 2km away (check the Saab site about the Illum ammo), you can in all earnest lob a HEAT as well, even though it won't be any use. That would mean doubling the range and halving the accuracy, more or less.

However, that would mean that units would systematically fire at max range, even if they have no chance of hitting. Same as they do with AAMG against aircrafts, only they have less CG ammo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

[quote]
PlasmaKrab said:
Exactly, the older ammuniton dont have any rockets, only the big uncomfortable punch out of the barrel.

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

Standard round in Sweden is the slpsgr m/75 HEAT round capable of ~400-420mm RHA.

There are better rounds available, including tandem warhead (as Plasma wrote) CS launch types capable of penetrating ~500mm RHA, and even a supercalibre frontloaded type that supposedly penetrates around 750mm.

Don't think there is a round capable of effectively engaging modern MBT frontally though.

The CG excels at "non-AT" work though, with its timefuzed airburst HEDP, breeching and flechette/shotgun rounds. This is its main role today I think.

All that's missing is a FAE round. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

Hey, it really excels! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Remember that Royal Marines een managed to take out a frigate with one single CG!http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Well, not obviously 'take out', they merely had the ship to retreat out of the Grytviken harbour, but that's already fine for one 84mm shoulder-held RLR!*

I admit it is not AT work though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

What is this slpsgr m/75 in designer reference? If it is m/75 as in 1975, I guess this is none of the rounds SAAB advertises for...
Now, what about future FAE rounds, or flechette? or auto-guided top-attack!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

*I know there are Brits out here who are bound to comment on that anecdote, particularly if it is false http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

Re: Recoilless Rifles
 

She got close enough to be hit by some "sixty-Six" rounds as well:

http://www.naval-history.net/F14sgeorgia.htm

http://www.navynews.co.uk/falklands/...8202040301.asp

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Fa...h-Georgia.html

Cheers
Andy