obat66 Sweden
 

This thread was started to collect changes needed in the Swedish SPMBT Obat 66.
Please post your suggestions and mofications.

I will try to change as many of these things myself but I would really like to share the burden with some other interested party.


Strf90(CV9040)
I belive that the sound is wrong for the 40mm Bofors AC. The animation shows a burst salvo but the the sound is just a single fired round.


SSG AMOS DF
...is in the Swedish Army called SSG-120. It is a twin barreled 120mm armoured mortar system, not an assaulgun as it is stated in SPMBT. The unit shold therefor be able to conduct indirect fire missions like any other mortar. A single SSG can fire 14 mortar rounds at the same target and get a simultanious impact at ranges of 10km so it should be modelled as rather effective.


The pictures
A major overhaul is also needed with the pictures concerning the Swedish units. It looks rather good up to the early 80´s then the pictures seem to stay the same. Mechinf (called Arm inf?) have a Bpv501(BMP1) in their picture for example. A quite odd selection of picture that seem to represent all Swedish soldier units until the end of time 2020 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Here DF means "direct fire". This is a version dedicated to direct fire only for orbat and gameplay purposes.
Look at unit 433 and you'll find the SP mortar one.

You have the same for the Russian 2B9 Vasilek auto mortar. Don't ask me why...;)

Additionnaly, both formations 215 and 250 using this DF AMOS are exactly identical. Why so?

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Dont have clue, and you are only able to choose one of them in purchase.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

I'd be glad to help out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

I have access to info on some of the older type army formations, including a complete breakdown of the Brigade 77 organisation, the Arctic company and a few others. Modern organistion etc is to some extent availiable through official stuff at mil.se (if you can read Swedish that is).

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Great! And yes I can understand Swedish fluently and have somewhat of a grip on the modern stuff as well as the near future. I have begun collecting pictures to update the obat with. The HQ unit for example looks like its even "pre-repmånad" if you understand what I mean. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
The problem with picures is that its wrong(illegal) to use them without permission. I dont know how they have handeld it with the picures allready in the game.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Certainly.Larsson kan inte reglementet! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Ah yes, the Swedish equivalent of "Top Gun" and "Black Hawk down", put together in one brillian movie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Some of the pic's are old, from the original SP2 mod. I tried to use public documents or got permission( Airforce museeum, SPHF and KÖMS)

And with an armed forces public relations department who believes professionalism means making money rather than further public relations one should be wary.
(They already sued one private museum)

As I was told, photos from official documents/books without a specific copyright or noted cameraman are considered to be public.
The resoning is that he who took the photo was employed by the armed forces and it was part of his job to photo. When a photographers is mentioned,
he owns the artistic rights for a long time (70? years)

The sad thing is that you can't find non copyrighted photos in modern manuals.
(I was tempted to use some of the Straw-men used in manuals from 50-60ies but refrained)


And I'm very pleased if any one cares to update OB66 past 2000


Cheers
/John T.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Of course we will!
The pictures really are a hot issue. I will try to contact some friends and get their photographs of different units.

If the military wont give permission then why not try the arms dealers? They have alot of comercial material that they spread around so maybe they wouldnt mind giving some of it our way, or have you tried that? We are allready using their products so why not credit them with proper pictures as well?
Saab Dynamics, Bofors Defence, Patria, Alvis Hägglunds... what else do we got?

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

IIRC some of the pictures in the game are credited to Föreningen P5-

http://www.foreningenp5.com/sv/index.shtml

Since they are open during the summer and I'm on vacation I could easily head there (don't live far from Boden) and beg for some stuff... and maybe put my digital camera to good use.

But I think we need to make a list of priority stuff... not sure AFV photos are such a pressing need...


Also, how many pictures can be added to the game...?

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

There are alot of outdated pictures:

Rifle section (090.091)
Arm Rifle section (127,128,132)
Recon Section (143)
Mot recon group (146)
Sniper (149,150,152,153,175)
Paratroop sec (154-157)
Partroop team (158-160,163)
Para sniper (161,162)
AT-inf MBT (174)

Uh... I will make a more detailed list later.

Rangers with and without support weapons.
Headquarters
Observer teams
Coastal rangers
Home Guard
etc...

I think the AFV´s and Tanks are covered, its the infantry and different support weapons that is lacking. The OOB itself also need alot of remodelling if we are talking present/future.
There are very few units that has a correct organization due to the recent changes in the defence force. There are alot of new different battalions and changes have been done even down to section level in most cases.

I guess we need to split up the work somehow. Most recent "Reglementen" are published on mil.se, there its easy to get the organisation right, then its just some fine tuning that is left.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

I agree.

True, but I think it would be cool to add/expend some other pre 1990 formations as well - brigade/battalion recon, engineer company, local defence/territorial/ värnkompni etc.

I'm open to suggestions... I did tinker around some with the OOBs but quit because a friend of mine was doing a much better job... I'll see if I can get him to show up.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Hi there.

Wulfir asked me to get my arse over here, so I did. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Nice to know more people than me see the need for a thorough update of the obat.

I've been wrestling with the 66 for a while now, and decided to completely remake the obat early this year. When I learned that WinSPMBT was coming out I sorta lost my energy for the work since I couldn't be sure the formats would be compatible. But now I'm going full burn since the format didn't change at all (insert Ren and Stimpy happy-happy-joy-joy song as theme).

I'd be interested in contributing my work so far, or gladly accept help in getting the OOB and picklist part sorted out, while Im almost done with my take on the ToE (mainly artillery and AA left to do), or just to be a ballplank to bounce ideas off.

Additions I've made to include but are not limited to, coastal artillery and emplacements, amphibious forces and transports, deeper implementation of NGFS capability, possible layout of the planned airmobile batallion, expanded battlefield sensor list (ARTHUR, ArtE), MP and other rear area security forces.

Oh, and the official designation of the CV90 AMOS has been set to grkpbv 90120 according to mil.se.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

I agree, the disappearance of Recon formations from the obat are hard to understand. F e the mech units have organic recon that right now drive around in bv206 and tgb11/13, and in the future will use a mix of those and bv208/209 and ptgb6 (Alvis RG-32) that aren't represented. All mot/mech infantry and recon should also be available dismounted. Other units also retain recon formations, usually a company for the individual batallions I believe.

värnkompni

I think that Driftvärnet has been thoroughly disbanded if thats what you're referring to.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Hmm... from what I understand vkomp was meant to man various fortifications/defence installations, in a pretty static role.

Mostly older cadres etc local misfits, not held in particulary high regard by the "field army". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Doubt they are in existance now with the dismantling of the invasion defence.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Then you weren't refering to driftvärn at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

These formations could already be considered as being present through the various fortifications themselves and the "aux infantry" type formation, right?

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

I guess... what is the aux infantry? Home Guard...?

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Technicians, mechanics, pencil pushers, depot guards. Armed non-combat enlisted. You know, "malajer"! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Sounds great, and it would be nice if you could upload your OOB so we could get a sneak peek on it and see what we could help with.
I know that there is a ton of changes and addons that I would like to do, but you may have allready done them.
For example adding "all" our "rapid" deployment units as well as future battlegroup elements.
But it would be nice if you could upload your OOB in this thread, and if we could have that one to work from?

Btw, what kind of experience are we together sitting on?

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

...and what must one do around here to get this thread stickied? Even East Germany have gotten that privilage, and thats not even a country any more! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

I feel your pain, svenske. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Note that my WinSPMBT obat is a WIP and broken. I can upload it but its just an incomplete set of units as of now. I haven't remade the formations and the new units list is not compatible with the old one at all.

I'll just remove the worst offenders of WIP inclusions and post what there is later today.

Wargame player since ~89.

Served as a doghandler in the airforce 95-96.

Otherwise just way to interested in green stuff that goes boom. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Its OK, I just wanted to see what you had changed so I dont start of on my own crusade, doing the same work twice.

Yes, indeed what a sad bunch of misfits we really are http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Mkay, here it is (I hope)

I'm currently arguing with the utility vehicles and haven't gone icon-chasing for the naval stuff yet, so ignore these.

Pics and sounds have been set though, so if you feel like it set some things up in the "TEST" formation and take it for a adrive and listen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Keep working Backis, the Swedes are already my favorite high tech foe for the long campaign.

Does anyone know what the story is with unit #414 Bkv 151. As far as I can tell it is the only 155mm SPA with a ROF >4.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

The worlds biggest machinegun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Burst rate of fire was a whopping 14rds in 45sek

Its "real" designation is bandkanonvagn 1, or bkan 1 for short (models ranging from A to C)

Only drawbacks, they cost an arm and a leg and weighed a ton (well, 53 metric tons actually...).

Pretty impressive for a sixties design IMO.

http://www.pansarmuseet.se/bkan1.htm

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Sounds like a good Idea,
Not beeing too pesimistic, but it was a bit harder than I thought to find pictures that are
1. Black and white, or with enough contrast when converted to B/W

2. 1:2 format 80 pix * 160 pix
Somehow the format 1:2 isn't much liked by photographers.

3. still make sense in 80 pix * 160 pix

But today picture processing software are much better than when most old LBM's where made.


Cheers
/John T.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Think we have to step into the line.

First I'd like the update to be part of the game,
So any changes has to be entered as proposals for SP:Cammo.
And a log of what is changed, or just noting that Units/formations 500- are new.
(Best to check with the OB.manager)

Can't just update an OB from SP:MBT, it has to follow the standards of WinMBT.
Updated SP:MBT is a good start but a pain to keep it in sync with the game if the changes made by "us" are not part of the basic game.

(Imagine the work done when someone decides to change on value for one weapon and has too walk trough all OOB's findning copies, preferably with local names.)


To be continuated..
/John T.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Played SP since, well I think -98, made a number of scenarios/campaigns/maps mostly for SPWW2, limited experience with the OOB editor...

vpl 96-97, Lv7 Boden. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Wow, this really looks researched.
The new 40mm A/C sound is rather nice(8 rounds of destruction) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

I see that you have included alot of imaginary equipment as well, like a future tracked vehicle but isnt the CV90 chassi enough? And what plattform is the HKP17 based on? Tiger? Anyway, its good to plan ahead for better days http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

The Archer model really looks as beautiful as in real life. And how do the different radars work? Are they some kind of all seeing FO:s?

Did you have a problem with the utility vehicles, or what do you currently need help with?

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

I know its a bit much... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

That is the Alvis Hägglunds SEP, and procurement plans for 2010 exists for this platform. Of course the project might very well be terminated, but it hasn't been so far.

CV90 is a very good chassi, but its expensive. The SEP is intended to supplant the "specialist" roles in a more cost effective manner, and also allow us to replace the MT-LB and Patria APC's, which will be worn out by then.

For the OOB, I chose to "assume" replacements will take place.

We got a pbv401 and 501, so I just assigned 601 to the SEP)

There is a "possibility" that a gunship will be acquired around 2010, even though it is small. It depends a bit on how "Luftburna Bataljonen" develops. Note that its "turned off" right now (nationality 0).

Oh, and its the Mangusta 129 CBT.

I chose between three platforms; Tiger (new and "European"), Roivalk (counter trade for the Gripen deal) and Mangusta A129 CBT (somewhat compatible with the NH.90, they can use the same engines and share some avionics equipment).

I rolled dice (I really did :lol: ) and ended up with the Mangusta CBT, and upgraded it to "2010" standards (new-gen FLIR and so on).

Yeah, now I just need an icon for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Its pretty amazing what you can find in the picture bank in this game, to bad so few update the obat picture references... there's good stuff in there!

Yes, essentially the GSR's just get a whopper (50-80 depending on system) of a vision rating. I haven't playtested them enough yet to decide if I want the final version to include this... but at least ARTHUR (on various mounts) needs to be represented IMHO.

Right now I slightly lean towards removing all except ARTHUR (they're more of rear area assets, so...), but then again ArtE would be nice to have available for designed coastal scenarios...

Not at all, I am just tranferring them from older version obat's at the moment, its a work in progress as I said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I'm up to speed fixing the units per se, and might be done with this inside next week (barring burnout), so what "I need" would mainly be regarding the formations and OOB-hunting.

Of course bughunting and criticism always helps a lot and would be appreciated. I bet I got a couple if "spelling errors" in there... just after sending the obat I noticed that a lot of the MG support units had a ROF of 0...

I really like the red colour they use showing database error now.

It would be nice if we could ferret out an Icon maker btw (122 mineplow, AMOS and engineer CV90, Archer, CB90HS/E, Strb Ny, Arholma MS and so on...).

haven't really gone through this version of icos though, so I might find things in there... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

I know about the SEP, but had totally forgotten that they where looking at a tracked version as well. I have always regarded the SEP as a replacement for Patg203 ("Det stora finska mongot"), that his just as beloved as the MB Sprint http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif.


Didnt you have an icon for the Archer in your OBAT? The SSG120 has already a nice icon in the new version so that work is done.

Anyway, I will try to dig up some OOB:s for different units so we can create formations.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

We kinda shot ourselves in the foot demanding the heaviest armour package while at the same time thinking civilian bus axles would be good enough...

Wise men say; You can drive her in difficult terrain. ONCE!

D'OH!

Either getting more interim second hand 185's or holding out for the AMV had been better.

If we'd gotten the AMV we could probably be certain about forgetting the SEP though...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Nah, I just used the Zuzanna/Dana icon (the Frenchie porté is just to small... Archer is pretty big.

And thanks for the heads-up on the SSG! I'd missed it because 433 and 434 use the plain CV90 icon... to much hurry installing my own crap I guess... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I love the backup obat folders tho. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Kewl!

I've been spending to much time arguing here so far anyway, better get back to work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

I had the privilege to climb around in one in Karlskoga some time ago. Its really a monster, and looks more like a spaceship than a artillery system. It has six onboard computers, how about that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Regarding the OOB:s, I have the current army (at least the fighing part) organization under control. I follow the offical publications stating what a certain formation includes. Each unit however conducts their own "tests" regularly to see what functions and what does not, but I will go by the books on this one. The latest (pansarskyste) organization listed in SP is 98, today I guess 02 is correct

I dont know how deep we will want to run with the formrations. The game is a about combat, so is there any real need for "Tung kabelgrupp" or "Stridsvagnstransport"?

Anyway, I will go offline for about two weeks soon and go to the Med and spend some time with Mr San Miguel. Wont do much use for the Swedish OOB then, but I will be back http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif !

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Have a nice holiday P. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

"Kabeltattare" and other "löst folk" would only be a couple of aux infantry sections and a couple of trucks which could be bought easily enough anyway.

Not sure how we will simulate writing "Helicopter" on the side of the trucks and its implications for crossing blown bridges though... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

We can just represent the TT's as in the other obat's. If anyone wants the support people, again you can just buy a couple of sections of aux inf, alternatively engineers and trucks or CEV's.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Bill-2 listed as multi-charge ATGM. But isn't it top-attack ?
The same with Indian Nag ATGM - listed as multi-charge...

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Well, it does have a precursor charge... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

No BILL version is supposed to be used in a direct attack profile against armour, but there its an option for use against soft targets such as trucks or semi-hardened types like buildings.

Irrelevant in this case though... it should be TA, nothing else.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Only IF the game had supported multi-Charge- Top attack.

Making it top-attack will reduce the effectiveness against ERA,

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif pick one representation of reality http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif


Cheers
/John T.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

I think that all Top attack ATGMs are stated as multicharge in game

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Making it a "dual warhead" will greatly reduce its effectiveness for frontal shots against ALL targets, especially unless you fuddle the penetration values and turn it into "Super-ATGM"...

And even if we gave it fantasy values (lets say 200 to circumvent frontal HEAT protection on a MBT) high-angle induced attacks would still be defeated by armour in a way it wouldn't against a TA attack...

Nope, I'd set it as TA nad continue to ***** for either a new weapon type (TA DW) or to let all TA weapons use the DW characteristic as per default (how many non-DW TA's are there out there?).

Quick check in the US OOB

TOW-2=top attack
TOW-2B=top attack
Javelin=top attack

So I'm thinking not really. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

obat66 Sweden
 

Hi all,

I have done a obat66 on sweden.

Corected lots of errors. It has also got the tgb-13 tgb-11, and so on.
There is also lots of new pictures to my obat, abot 200.

ok, there is still some errors in the obat.

if there some one who whant it contact me on:

niklas627@yahoo.se


cheers/
niklas

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

BILL-2 is also a top attack system, like BILL-1

The deferens is that the BILL-1 is gong 80cm above the "sight line" and have attack system which is directed 45' down. BILL-2 is flying 2m above the "sight line" and has got a multiple charge. The charges are directed ~90'.

More about the BILL-1 is that Bofors has shooting through 1m steel.

When I was at Kråksskjutfält we did shooting through a Strv-74. The hit was on the back of the tank, going through the engine and out on the bottom.


cheers
/niklas

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

IIRC, in the game Top attack ATGMs,class 20, are assumed to be multicharge weapons as well,which makes sense to me.
At any rate those TOW-2Bs go throught the top ERA of my fictional MBTs as if it was not even there...

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

TOW-2 should not be top-attack. Only TOW-2B.

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

That's correct. The TOW-2 is not a top attack system.

As far as I know the Swedish army does not have TOW-2B.

And with self experience with the TOW system is it almost impossibly to move with 2 men and have also 2 missiles. Maybe infantry teams with 4 men with 2 missiles each is more correctly.

More about the TOW follow this link:
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/tow/

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Re: obat66 Sweden
 

Strv121 Frontal turret steel armor is 100. Same as strv122. Should be fixed to Leo2A4 standards of 70.

Strv 121, 122 avalability dates
 

Strv 121 and 122 listed as available until 12/1999, though it's still possible to buy them after 1999

Re: Strv 121, 122 avalability dates
 

Trying a quick 30 second search on unit names with Mobhack gives various possibilities.

Which of the 3 different 121s are you looking at? [30,355,357] or which of the 3 different 122s [31,356,358]?.

All different units, with different non-overlapping service dates, but the same name. One does stop in 99, but the others each come into service later. Thus - one can buy these things past 1999.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Strv 121, 122 avalability dates
 

Ahh, I see now.