Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

Have been doing some play testing for Daynarr on some of his new race mods, but, happened to review the EA and Toron races as well during a game. I identified the following issues/problems;

1) The Earth Alliance Construction_Vehicles file contains a Planet per Item value of 1 for Weapons Platforms in the Exploration Category (ie 10 WP's per planet!). As early on it is difficult to actually fit 10 WP's on each planet, the EA wastes a lot of time and resources trying to build WP's to satify the rule (frequent "No Storage Available" Messages).
The other cateogories, however, have Planet per Item settings of only 5 (2 WP's per planet) which is ok. Hence, once the EA switches out of Exploration mode, it is no longer hampered.

2)What is the rationale for researching armour ahead of shields? In all playtesting I have done, it is abundantly clear that the AI does much better if it has shields early on.

3)Shields has been placed 10 entries after Physics. Whats the story? Shields should either follow directly after Physics, or Physics should be lowered so that it is only four above Shields. This sort of research queuing really hampers the AI early on when it is up against a human opponent.

4) Troop Weapons has been placed 8 entries after Troops (and with the 500k Ice Colonisation tech in between).
Again, Troop Weapons should either follow directly after Troops, or Troops should be lowed so that it is only four above Troop Weapons.

5)The Toron DesignCreation file requires that their ships be equipped with capital missiles, but, they only research missiles above level 1 at the end of their research queue. I suggest that if missiles are to be retained in their DesignCreation file, that the Toron Research file be adjusted to ensure that they progressively research missiles, rather than do it all at the end of the game.

I look forward to your replies on these issues. Regards,

God Emperor

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

The comments at the top of Default_AI_Construction_Vehicles.Txt file say:

Entry X Planet Per Item:
Number of planets per each item in 10ths.
(20 = 2.0: We want 1 item for every 2 planets we have.)

Wouldn't that mean that planets per item := 1 means only one weapon platform for every 1/10 a planet equals build one weapon platform for every 10 planets?

Thanks for any help. I don't have any experience or opinion on this. I'm just going by what I read at the top of the file. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

God Emperor, I agree with some of your statements. If you research troops, you should always research Troop weapons 3. I have added that to all the AI research queques. The same is true for mines and explosive warheads. If you research mines you should always research explosive warheads 3 - I added that to the AIs research files.

Armor is a VERY good AI choice. Both Chemistry and Physics cost the same, but level 3 armor is cheaper than level three shields. Also is smaller ships, four armor can fit in the place of one shield generator.
Space is very critical on smaller vessels and 4x10 armor components are more flexible than 1 x 40 shield generator.

Since I normally research physics 2, get phased polaron beam 3 that skips shields I usually destroy all AI ships.

I have tied armor 3 to chemistry 1 and move that ahead in the AI research queques and then replaced armor in place of shields for a small attack ship design.

I added a new ship design called small attack ship and increased the minimum tonnage on the default attack ship. Now I face a mixture of ships that cause me problems. I still need the phased polaron beam to fight the large ships with shields, but I also need another weapon for the small ships with armor. Now instead of just massing against one ship until destroyed, I usually send my missiles after the armor ships and save the phased polaron for the shield ships.

I good mixture of armor and shields on every ship design would be the best option.

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

Raynor,
Your reading of the file is correct but your maths was done the wrong way http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Entry X Planet Per Item:
Number of planets per each item in 10ths.
(20 = 2.0: We want 1 item for every 2 planets we have.)

Therefore;
(1 = 0.1: We want one item for every 0.1 planets we have.)
ie ten items per 1 planet....

Jourin,
I take your point. I guess I have been influenced in the past by the number of damaged AI ships I have had to fight that did have armour but had lost it in earlier battles, and by the fact that I play with Destroyers available at game start.
I guess the bottom line is that you really want to get both armour and shields as soon as possible...


[This message has been edited by God Emperor (edited 21 March 2001).]

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

I must be missing something on troop weapons. I never research them. The Ground Cannon III has damage of 20 20. The small DUC III has damage of 15 15. The DUC has applications on fighters (and the tech has probably already been researched anyway), while the ground cannon is only useful for troops. Why spend the research to get ground cannons, when the the DUC is nearly as effective and is useful in other ways? In my style of play, the only time troops are used is when I already have a race against the ropes and I can bring in an overwhelming force of troops armed with DUCs and small rocket pods, and they have no difficulty wasting the resistance that can be mustered by the local militia.

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

Alpha Kodiak,
I agree with you. I hardly ever research Troop Weapons myself, and Troops only late in the game. I am working on Klingon and Romulan race files so I'll make sure that I dont bother with Troop Weapons...
Thanks for the reminder,
God Emperor

PS: I have been toying around with allowing Lvl 1 Troops (or a weakened Version) available at game start with subsequent research costs bumped up. Any thoughts?

[This message has been edited by God Emperor (edited 21 March 2001).]

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

Alpha Kodiak, I agree with your assessment, but I am not sure if the AI does. I also want to improve the ground combat side because for me it is the biggest disappointment in the game. If I can get the AI to build troops with decent weapons then that is an improvement.

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

I think if weapons platforms, sats and space ships are available at start then troops have probably been discovered by then too. They should be included at the start.

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

Marty Ward,

I initially thought the same. But a difference exists. Weapon plateforms are for defense. Troops are for planetary assualt. The normal planet defense is handled by the autogeneration of militia units based on population. I think you should need to research the ability to do a planetary assualt and not have that a game start.

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

I suppose that if the actual research for troops is for the technology to be able to drop them from orbit, then some research would be required, but the current path of having to first research construction, then troops seems extreme. Perhaps troop technology should be a basic technology to research, rather than having to research construction first.

Of course, then the question, "Why do you need construction to build fighters when you can already build space ships?" comes up. It seems like fighters should be a basic tech to research, as well. Maybe I don't really understand what construction technology is supposed to represent.

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

You have some good points. In the mod I am designing I added a new vehicle called space plane or basically a large fighter. Only 80 tons with a max of three engines or enough for bridge, crew quarters, life support and max three engines with supply for a scout, or two engines with DUC for defense. I then made a colony boat available with only 2 engines at 270 tons. I called this tech space travel. I then made industry a preq for construction, and construction a prq for ship construction. This made logical sense and I REALLY like the lower start because it feels more like the initial stages of space travel. With the slow colony boat, you settle the planets in your system first even if other ones are better in other systems. I also limited the range of the space plane by creating a new engine that burns more fuel available with tech Basic propulsion cost 2500 and made basic propulsion 6 a preq for propulsion (nuclear and fusion engins). The end result is that you colonize your system and some of the neighboring systems before you can even go deep and expand your empire. It does limit the intial research choices but it still gives me a choice between bigger ships or better engines. So far I really like the results.

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

Maybe there should be a low level troop and fighter available at start, for defense purposes. Like Jourin proposes. Make them small so they really would not be suited for offensive actions.

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

> 1) The Earth Alliance Construction_Vehicles file contains a Planet per Item value of 1 for Weapons Platforms in the Exploration Category (ie 10 WP's per planet!). As early on it is difficult to actually fit 10 WP's on each planet, the EA wastes a lot of time and resources trying to build WP's to satisfy the rule (frequent "No Storage Available" Messages).
> The other categories, however, have Planet per Item settings of only 5 (2 WP's per planet) which is ok. Hence, once the EA switches out of Exploration mode, it is no longer hampered.

Early on there are only small WPs and you need many to put up a good defence. After the AI makes contact it will rarely if ever fall back to exploration state.

> 2)What is the rationale for researching armour ahead of shields? In all playtesting I have done, it is abundantly clear that the AI does much better if it has shields early on.

Armor is quite good IMHO. It is cheap, easy to research and fills up the AI ships where a shield generator cannot. This is especially true for the smaller ships.

> 3) Shields has been placed 10 entries after Physics. Whats the story? Shields should either follow directly after Physics, or Physics should be lowered so that it is only four above Shields. This sort of research queuing really hampers the AI early on when it is up against a human opponent.

Physics is also required for energy weapons which the EA is researching after physics. If you research shields you should research them up to 5 or not at all as the “inferior” armor has a much better damage ratio then low level shields.

> 4) Troop Weapons has been placed 8 entries after Troops (and with the 500k Ice Colonisation tech in between).
> Again, Troop Weapons should either follow directly after Troops, or Troops should be lowed so that it is only four above Troop Weapons.

Who needs weapon on troops? No one. The Ai does not use troops but troops provide a morale boast, with and without troop weapons.

> 5)The Toron DesignCreation file requires that their ships be equipped with capital missiles, but, they only research missiles above level 1 at the end of their research queue. I suggest that if missiles are to be retained in their DesignCreation file, that the Toron Research file be adjusted to ensure that they progressively research missiles, rather than do it all at the end of the game.

The Torons are designed to use the capital ship missile until they research their weapons of choice. You need some weapons even in early ships so why should I don’t use missiles?
The Last lines for research are “catch all”s to prevent the player from making tech deals with the AI. Just that simple.

Re: Mod Packers - Research File Issues - EA & Toron
 

Mephisto,
Thanks for the reply. In response;

1) I really disagree on this issue. The EA in my games wastes heaps of points and production opportunity attempting to build the required number of WP's.

In my most recent game, it had two planets other than the home planet, each with 400kT cargo space. Because the homeplanet has a spaceyard, it was producing Colony ships and warships in accordance with the AI_Construction_Vehicles file (Weapons Platforms are at entry #14). That meant that the other two planets had to build the required 30 WP's between them, when they could only store 2 each!

If it was possible to ensure that once a planet was full, the AI would go on to building something else, then I would agree with you. Currently though, it is just wasting its time.

A question though, how quickly does the AI shift from Exploration mode to Attack or Defence etc? If the transition is relatively quick, a value of 3 or 5, rather 1 should not cause the AI too much grief.

2) I take your point on this one for small ships.
I would still recommend though that the AI research shields once it has got Destroyer tech - one shield + armour really does make a marked difference to the robustness of AI ships.

3) I see what you mean.

4) Agree with you. I must admit I dont research Troop Weapons myself. In another thread it was pointed out that if DUC's have been researched Troop Weapons become somewhat superfluous. What are you thoughts?

5) The problem I have seen though is that the Toron continues to deploy ships with Missile lvl 1, meaning that later in the game its ships are not fully utilising the higher techs that they research. Has anyone else encountered this?