Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

I've been working on my mod, and I'm screwing around with the ship sizes and types quite a bit. I've doubled the size increase for most classes from 100kT to 200kT, among other things. I started looking at the Escort, and considered removing it entirely.

1. It's so tiny it can barely hold 1 missile launcher when the game begins. When better tech is available, it just doesn't have room for the components necessary to survive (point defense, ECM, combat sensors).

2. The first tech that I queue up on the first turn is Ship Construction, so I have frigate tech by turn two. The escort is instantly obsolete.


So, like the title says, does anyone use these things? Is there a reason to keep them at all?

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

Why couldn't a "ship size option" be included like it was in SE3 ?

IIRC what we have now are the standard ship sizes of SE3, but people I talked to preferred the "enlarged" hulls, some (me http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif ) even the used the "massive" size most times ..

Ok,ok, I could change it in VehicleSize.txt, but wouldn't it be nice to have this option back ?

But - don't make the "jumps" bigger from class to class .. that shurely wouldn't help with the escort http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif .. a fixed %-age would do - and maybe someone could come up with something more interesting ??
How big must an escort be?
Bridge 10kt
Life Supp. 10kt
Crew Quart. 10kt
6 Engines 60kt
Shields/Armor 40kt
Multiplex T. 10kt
Sensors 10kt
ECM 10kt
Point Def. 20kt
Weap/Cargo/etc. 30kt
------
210kt (or 140%)

Point Def. could be left out ... what makes it 190kt (127%)

One problem, though - the small transport even now carries too much pop, so either pop must use 10x the space, or some components must be altered ..

Just my 0,02 EUR of thoughts, though.

A.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

I certainly agree that the Escort is useless in the default configuration, but it's a perfectly good picture in every race definition! Don't waste it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Just bump the sizes up a bit and they are more useful. But don't over-do it. I think that the mod idea posted by Tim McElwain on the SE4 list on yahooGroups is a bit excessive. There needs to be a major size difference between ships and bases in order for bases to be worthwhile and there is a certain proportion of ship size to component size inherent in the game design. I'm working on a mod now that will make the Escort 200kt and then jump 50kt to Frigate at 250kt, then 100kt per level as now for the Destroyer and Light Cruiser (350kt and 450kt). This makes these classes a little bit more powerful and flexible but doesn't completely throw out the game balance in the original setup. Then as the cost of researching levels of Ship Construction gets greater the returns get greater. So, a Cruiser will be 600kt rather than 500kt (150kt increase on the level rather than 100kt) and a Battle Cruiser 150kt more, at 750kt. Battleships and Dreadnoughts would be 1000kt and 1250kt, giving a 250kt increase, and then the base ship will remain at 1500kt. This is a much smoother "curve" to reach the base ship than the default arrangement, too.

Space Stations are already 600kt in my personal mod, and a battlestation is smaller, at 1200kt. But this is to make room for TWO sizes that use the Starbase picture: The "Star Fortress" at 2000kt and the Starbase at 3000kt. With the starbase being fully twice as large as the base ship, you still have a decent incentive to use them since they can easily stand up to any single ship and quite a large number of smaller ships.

There are some other game-balance factors that I am working on, like engines per move and number of life support/crew quarters at various sizes. I hope to start a game with my new setup in a week or so, though.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

I'm still using ES on turn 80 in my Pirates game - basically they're support ships now, and just move in to capture ships taht my LCs have disabled.

Their small size makes them no threat to the AI, and so they don't get shot up as much. Also, since they have no shields, there is no penalty for making a boarding attempt http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

When funds are tight, the ES is viable, but I'm probably not going to build any more, and switch over to BC attack ships & LC support.

Perhaps, instead of increasing the size of the ship, you should give it an inherent movement bonus for its small size?

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

I only use them for scouts and sensor ships. They build fast and don't cost much. Using them as sensor ships allows me to put an additional weapon/shield on my combat fleet. The sensor also helps keep enemies from slipping by through nebula systems. Even using them like this they would not be missed if they were removed, unless you were playing a pirate race.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

Does anybody use them for cheap weapon platforms?

Ie. CSM V on an ES, they just sit back, and loose missiles while your BCs & DNs fight it out with short range weapons?

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

I like escorts the way they are. It gives the game a realisitc feel. Real navies aren't totally composed of capital ships.

Great things about escorts...

They are small and cheap so you can crank them out at your low pop space yard worlds and at your space yards ships.

Ecsorts with direct fire weapons (ducs, beams) make great picket lines. a line of those between your dreadnougths and your enemy does a coupple of things. They have more fire power than a fighter, and they typically don't go poof when hit once like fighters do. This means even if the escort is disabled, the enemy has to use another shot on him next turn or spend movement points going around him to get to your larger ships.

Escorts with lower damage weapons a few spaces in front of your missle laden capitol ships may not even recieve fire from the enemy, as normally the ai will attack the strongest ships first.

A fleet of dreadnoughts goes into battle, afterwards most of the ships may still be alive but several will be crippled, causing them to be abandoned or slow the fleet down. With escorts taking some of that damge, you will lose more ships, but the ones left will be relativly unharmed, and moving at full speed.

Geo

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

It would be a good Idea to add movement points to smaller ship hulls. A sort of bonus so that there is an insentive to use the smaller hulls later in the game. And I never thought it made much sense that smaller ships go just as slow as a Dreadnought.

A movement bonus would be a good idea to balance out the game and give reasons to use smaller hulls later in the game.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

I agree,the escort should be fast like a PT boat.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

Escorts are already faster than Dreadnaughts. In fact they are faster than anything larger than a Battle Cruiser becasue as they get larger than that they can't have as many engines.

I agree that is a silly way to limit the speed of larger ships, but that is how it is currently and it has the same effect as a speed bonus for smaller hulls.

Geo

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Escorts are already faster than Dreadnaughts. In fact they are faster than anything larger than a Battle Cruiser becasue as they get larger than that they can't have as many engines<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That still means there are only two hull types slower than an ES: the DN & BS

I would prefer a mass-based movement system. So when you double your mass, you have to have twice the engine power to move at the same speed. Larger hulls would be able to get bigger, more efficient engines, but in general, the larger ships should spend more space on engines to move the same speed as a smaller ship.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

Escorts are a major component of my battle fleets. Don't put shields/armor on them, as the AI rarely shoots at the little buggers. I use them as:
1) Sensor boats.
2) Point Defense boats.
3) Movement interdictors- surround the enemy ships so they can't move.
3) Suicide boarding ships. After a certain point, the AI always puts a Self-Destruct Device on board their ships. This can be inconvenient if you want to actually capture their ships, but it is also the ultimate weapon if you just want to blow them up. Cram 3 Boarding Party modules on board the ES and once the shields are ripped down send the ES in to board. If successful the enemy ship blows up. I've taken out multiple dreadnoughts this way. Use Master Computers if you don't like the thought of kamikaze crews.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
I would prefer a mass-based movement system. So when you double your mass, you have to have twice the engine power to move at the same speed. Larger hulls would be able to get bigger, more efficient engines, but in general, the larger ships should spend more space on engines to move the same speed as a smaller ship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've modded the ship types to make use of the "Engines Per Move" Option, which was also in SE3. Currently it's set for 1 per move if less than 1000kT, 2 per move if less than 2000kT, etc. As such, a heavy battleship (3500kT) needs 3 engines per move. If equipped with its maximum of 12 engines, it has a speed of 4 (with Ion Engines).

By contrast a cruiser (800kT) needs one engine per move with a max of 6 engines, so 6 Ion Engines make it 50% faster than a heavy battleship, despite having half as many engines.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

NOTE: "Engines per move" in VehicleSize.txt does NOT refer to actual engines! It refers to movement points! This means that you do NOT have to settle for 1 engine per move and then a sudden doubling to 2 engines per move. You can assign more than one 'standard' movement to engines and then do some fancier math with the ships' engines per move (=movement points per move!) and actual max engines. I've assigned engines FIVE standard movement points in my mod. This allows setting Escort/Frigate to a max of five engines and still getting a movement rate of 6 ('engines per move'=4, max engines=5, 25/4=6 plus a remainder which is discarded). This allows a standard movement rate of one per engine with Destroyers and Light Cruisers ('engines per move'=5, max engines=6). And this allows a GRADUAL increase in engines needed to move larger ships. A cruiser can have 'engines per move'=8 and a max of 8 engines. So, it has a max normal movement of 5, rather than 6 and only needs TWO more engines for that movement. Then a battle cruiser can have 'engines per move'=10 and a max of 10 engines. It STILL moves 5 but needs more supplies to do it. Cool, huh? Then battleships and dreadnoughts have 'engines per move'=12 or even 15, and max engines=12 so they move either 5 or 4. I'm leaning towards the 4 but I'm still thinking about it. A base ship is a real hog. Diminishing returns should really kick in with a ship this huge, so I'm planning to have engines per move=25 and then a max of 15 engines. 15X5=75, 75/25=3 movement (plus bonuses, of course). I presume that the max movement points a ship could have would be 255, but I don't know. Someone will test it, I don't doubt. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Remember, this works with STANDARD engine movement. The bonus movement and the 'extra movment' of things like the Solar Sail and and new mods using this ability for different components will still be 1 for 1 in effect. The same goes for combat thrusters if you've gone and made them available for ships like I have. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

You must have pretty messed up hull sizes if your battleship is larger than a starbase.

What I meant by the mass-based, was to give engines 15 movement, and have every ship require (Mass/10) engines per move.

So, an escort requires 15 engines per move, and gets normal movement (15/15 = 1 per engine), while a destroyer (300KT) gets (15/30 = half a movement per engine)

255 is definitely a limit on the engines per move.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 25 March 2001).]

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Noble713:
I've modded the ship types to make use of the "Engines Per Move" Option, which was also in SE3. Currently it's set for 1 per move if less than 1000kT, 2 per move if less than 2000kT, etc. As such, a heavy battleship (3500kT) needs 3 engines per move. If equipped with its maximum of 12 engines, it has a speed of 4 (with Ion Engines).

By contrast a cruiser (800kT) needs one engine per move with a max of 6 engines, so 6 Ion Engines make it 50% faster than a heavy battleship, despite having half as many engines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did something similar, but modified max engines to allow movement speeds equal to the original ship speed. Eg., I had battleship hulls use 3 engines per move, but allowed 15 engines.

Just a warning: if you are going to do something like that instead of what you have above you will have to modify the AI_DesignCreation.txt files to get the AI to put max engines in. "Desired Speed" is actually the number of engines, from what I can tell.

But it's fun, and the heavier warships now have plenty of supplies instead of fewer supplies in the original rules. The only problem was that cruisers and battlecruisers don't do too well w/2 engines per move. Cruisers lose a lot of space, not much more than what light cruisers have and battlecruisers have a bit more space than an unmodified cruiser would have. So I'm experimenting with adding a supply storage value to bigger ships to see how that works.


------------------
--
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Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

I have an idea that I haven't seen below; I'll try to test it today if I find time (unless someone else has already tried & failed):

Keep the idea of requiring more engines per move (or whatever it really means) for larger ships; then, create special engines for the larger ships. Require research in both propulsion and ship construction to unlock the "larger" engines. These larger engines would provide more movement points per engine (and possibly more supply storage), thus reducing the number of engines required on the larger vessels. Now, here's the part that needs testing: limit the larger engines for use on larger ships using the "Custom Groups" mentioned in the Components and VehicleSize files. I'm not certain if the Custom Groups work or not. I also know there may be a glitch with providing more supply storage in engines, as the AI will create ships with "extra" engines (as in illegal ship designs) because it's using the engines in place of supply storage. That could be "fixed" by increasing the capacity of the existing supply storage component, but that could change the balance of the game as well.

Obviously, this would also require modding the AI vehicle design files, but I'm sure the modding community is very good at that... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

A post that's slightly more on topic (at least the original topic for this thread):

Escorts are great for medical bay ships. Fast build, no extra components, just engines, bridge/etc., and a medical bay. Cure plagues fast...

As others have mentioned, I also use them for sensor ships. Not that I can initiate combat in nebula systems, even with the sensor ship in my fleet, but at least I can follow the enemy vessels...

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Not that I can initiate combat in nebula systems, even with the sensor ship in my fleet, but at least I can follow the enemy vessels...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you saying that no battles can occur in a storm system? Does that mean that my space station in the storm system is invulnerable?

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

I use em in the scout roll, Quantum engines and solar Sail III and nothing can catch em, just dont let em get close enough to use beems on you http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Are you saying that no battles can occur in a storm system? Does that mean that my space station in the storm system is invulnerable?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possibly; I haven't tried to initiate combat in a storm sector, but I have tried (unsuccessfully) to initiate combat in nebula systems. It may be a bug; or it may be that _both_ sides need to have the appropriate sensor technology for combat to occur.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

I've not had any problems with combat in nebulas. The only problem is spotting the enemy. Shields don't work in the nebulas though.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

Personally, I've modded my Escorts and Frigates to have 8 and 7 engines. Works out really well too. With 8 engines escorts are perfect for scouting... just add 2 supply pods. Frigates work great with 7 movement as well. Makes sense in my mind... Smaller ships should be fast, but weak. That is the point of them.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

How did you get the computer players to recognize the changes to Escorts and Frigates?

Are the AI using these changes to their benefit?

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

I find that escorts are useful in the early and mid games as a cheap, disposable attrition unit. As someone else here as commented, the AI doesn't seem to view escorts and frigates as a threat during a mixed fleet engagement, so they are quite useful for throwing a little extra damage into the mix. In the early game, i just throw a CSM onto an escort hull. By mid-game, I usually have escorts fitted with one beam weapon and one PDC acting as primarily a missile/fighter defense support ship.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
I have an idea that I haven't seen below; I'll try to test it today if I find time (unless someone else has already tried & failed):

Keep the idea of requiring more engines per move (or whatever it really means) for larger ships; then, create special engines for the larger ships. Require research in both propulsion and ship construction to unlock the "larger" engines. These larger engines would provide more movement points per engine (and possibly more supply storage), thus reducing the number of engines required on the larger vessels. Now, here's the part that needs testing: limit the larger engines for use on larger ships using the "Custom Groups" mentioned in the Components and VehicleSize files. I'm not certain if the Custom Groups work or not. I also know there may be a glitch with providing more supply storage in engines, as the AI will create ships with "extra" engines (as in illegal ship designs) because it's using the engines in place of supply storage. That could be "fixed" by increasing the capacity of the existing supply storage component, but that could change the balance of the game as well.

Obviously, this would also require modding the AI vehicle design files, but I'm sure the modding community is very good at that... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I tested the "Custom Group" stuff and couldn't get it to work.

I did notice that the Hyper-Density Cables and Gravity Plating have Custom Group numbers assigned. But I couldn't get the "Cannot Have" or "Can Have" abilities to work... so, I'm not certain how to restrict large engines to large hulls...

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

Maybe the custom group is to check for items present before something happens, like create ring world.
If this is the case maybe the custom group could be used to create something.

Re: Does Anyone Use Escorts?
 

Interesting topic...

I think this may have been answered on a previous post (and I don't have the time to get into modding yet), but in reference to the engine / size / movement issue, has anyone looked into an engine "mount" - used like weapon mounts. Should / would / could increase supply storage and add movement bonus, but have size restrictions ie. weapon mounts.

Any ideas / thoughts?