Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

What hard-coded mods from MM would you be willing to pay for? And how much?

For myself, I'd pay another few dollars for a more realistic ground assault option. (Or maybe a tie-in to one of Shrapnel's ground warfare games. I wouldn't pay MM for that directly, but I'd be willing to buy the other game and MM could get a kickback.)

I'd also pay a few bucks for a SaveGame file editor. I've talked before about the advantages of that.

How about the rest of you?

I realize that Aaron can only work so fast, even if people are willing to pay extra for it. But maybe he could subcontract a "plug-in" modification or an accessory program, such as the things I've suggested? I'm trying to think of how the SEIV community could help Aaron make SEIV a Nobel-prize-winning game, as most people on this forum obviously want.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

Since a good ground combat engine was not in the original specs, I would pay around $20 US dollars for an add-in that really developed the ground combat. I do not need 3d graphics and real time, (IG2 had that and that was not the best), However, that would be a long time away. I was just hoping for some quick fixes to improve the ground combat phase per a post I made. I would not recommend MM hiring out contract help. Unless the coder is a big fan, I would worry about the quality of the game. MM's committment to quality is the standard all gaming companies should follow!

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

What are the advantages of a savegame editor?

Would you be willing to play a PBEM game if you knew someone could edit the savegame?

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

The ability to import/export saved games and command files as human-readable text might convince me to fork over some more $. (Command file --> the list of orders for a given player for a given turn). It'd permit insane Perl scripters to come up with complicated scripts to automate complex tasks, such as using a set of rules to add atmosphere converters where necessary (and deciding which facilities to scrap if necessary for making room), for replacing production uniresource facilities with 'liths, and so forth. I'd rather write a set of scripts to queue the commands for me, rather than have to do everything by hand, and it'd reduce the need for an interface overhaul. In addition, the command list stuff may already be largely in place (I'm thinking of simul+PBEM games, where it makes sense for clients to be able to send *only* command lists to the server, rather than change state directly; that way, the server can validate legality and consistency).

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-- The thing that goes bump in the night

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

Look, I agree with many of the things you guys are saying, and I have suggestion for you all to consider. Why not just wait for an expansion pack for SEIV? That way, Aaron and the folks here at SG can make a nice profit from there work, and we the buyers get another CD with all the latest stuff.

Just a thought, and YES, I wouldn't mind paying extra for it. SEIV is a great game, and it has been very well supported by Aaron and SG, and that goes a long way in sementing customer satasfaction.

[This message has been edited by Atrocities (edited 27 March 2001).]

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

>For myself, I'd pay another few dollars for >a more realistic ground assault option. (Or >maybe a tie-in to one of Shrapnel's ground >warfare games.
I don't recall the name of the game, but I used to play a space game that had automated strategic ground/ship assualt combat. The company had a tatical ground combat game that would tie in and allow you to experience tatical combat if you owned both games. It was really cool.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

I think paying MM for a 'expansion' pack/disk is a good idea. Personally I have spent more time this year on SEIV than any title I bought Last year.

For me; it is worth it.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erhardt:
I think paying MM for a 'expansion' pack/disk is a good idea. Personally I have spent more time this year on SEIV than any title I bought Last year.

For me; it is worth it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree. Perhaps Aaron could make some of his personal development tools available on a CD for SEIV junkies?

Scenarios/mods would be more problematic:

a. How to credit fan modders for their ideas/work?

b. How to avoid setting formats in stone and compromising further game development?

Maybe he should just start a "Malfador Programmers' Benevolent Fund"?

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Resistence is futile.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

He can not publish his personal development tools, since he doesn't own the rights to them.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Triumvir Emphy:
He can not publish his personal development tools, since he doesn't own the rights to them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought I read somewhere he used Visual Basic for the first three SE games and then switched to Delphi for this 4th one. Do you remember reading that too? I coulda sworn he said that this latest one is coded object-oriented. I *must* have read that somewhere. Does anyone have the URL to that article? I thought it was an interview of some sort. Thanks!

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Triumvir Emphy:
He can not publish his personal development tools, since he doesn't own the rights to them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was thinking more of the utilities he uses to edit components etc. All developers spend time on such things - often the work required to make them idiot-proof makes them unsuitable for general release though.

The map editor would have been a prime candidate. He might have ticked off a few but he could have added the editor to new distributions of the full game and charged a nominal $5 for existing owners to download via the old Malfador mechanism.

I'm justing tossing ideas around here. I'd hate to see Aaron forced to give it all in and train to become a CPA.

At least we don't have to worry about him getting VC funding for a .com.


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Resistence is futile.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

Reminder of topic:
I'm trying to get us all to distinguish between irritating "pet peeves" and things that we want badly enough that we'd pay for them.

Regarding the SaveGame file editor:
Because SEIV is so complex, the possibilities are awesome. For instance, you could make up your own disasters and roll dice for them, then implement them with a SaveGame editor. You could have quests; you could have sci-fi literary scenarios. You could play it like D&D with a "galaxy master." You could override the results of SEIV combat and insert results based on your favorite combat game. You could use the editor as a "deus ex machina" to turn an end-of-game mop-up into an epic struggle (the aliens from the galaxy next door are scared of you and so they just gave your pathetically weak opponents a large advanced-tech fleet and maybe some ringworlds), and you could use it to set up the game anyway you want -- tech levels, resources, starting planets, etc.

Regarding PBEM if a SaveGame editor existed:
There are ways to verify if a file has been tampered with. These could be used to prevent PBEM fraud. (Plus, mail fraud is a felony, but PBEM fraud is a mortal sin. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif ) However, there are "legal" ways to "cheat" by using strategies that take advantage of loopholes in the game. Most players in PBEM outlaw these with "house rules" and simply trust their opponents to obey them.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

I would pay to be able to play with more than 20 races at a time. Let me use all of my custom races in one gigantic game!

Also, when I finally conquer a galaxy I would like to be able to somehow move to another galaxy. Kind of like invading the neighbor. This way the game could be never ending! Or at least be able to transfer ships from one galaxy to another and stay in the same spot in the tech tree. This would at least alleviate the 20 maximum races problem. Because a new galaxy would have new races. Anyway, I know this sounds pretty far out, but what do you think? I would pay anything reasonable to have these capabilities.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chewy027:
Also, when I finally conquer a galaxy I would like to be able to somehow move to another galaxy. Kind of like invading the neighbor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What you're really asking for is a SaveGame File Editor. You could generate a new game in a new galaxy, then edit the SaveGame file to give yourself the tech from the Last game in the Last galaxy. You could also give the aliens in that galaxy some tech and a bunch of ships (or else it'll be kind of boring -- you'll wipe them out too easily).

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

Anybody want more realistic space combat? Aren't there any twitchers out there who'd like to be able to set up the space combats in a RTS game and import the results?

Maybe I'm wierd. I like turn-based strategy, real-time strategy, and also real-time first-person (e.g., X-Wing). Is that wierd? Do I need professional help?

My kids and I thought up the ultimate computer game the other night. The only problem was, it would be so complicated that you wouldn't be able to have a real life! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

Raynor - you are correct. Delphi was used for SE4. It was mentioned at a game review site that had a rather long interview with Aaron.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellicus:
I don't recall the name of the game, but I used to play a space game that had automated strategic ground/ship assualt combat. The company had a tatical ground combat game that would tie in and allow you to experience tatical combat if you owned both games. It was really cool.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You wouldn't be refering to Breach 2 and Rules of Engagement (or for that matter Breach 3 and Rules of Engagement 2), would you? Published by, IIRC, Omnitrends (and Impressions for B3/RE2)?

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

I would pay getting the AI to have a coherent strategy, use all the items in the game, read troops and ship capture, and a better diplomacy model, with history, global effects, forethought.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:
I would pay getting the AI to have a coherent strategy, use all the items in the game, read troops and ship capture, and a better diplomacy model, with history, global effects, forethought. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I think you're speaking for everybody on these issues. A truly intelligent AI probably would really win a Nobel prize! But some other games have done aspects of AI better than SEIV, so we all know that it can be done. However, I've never yet played a complicated PC game that didn't have gaping flaws in the AI.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Anybody want more realistic space combat? Aren't there any twitchers out there who'd like to be able to set up the space combats in a RTS game and import the results? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always thought it would be neat to use "Homeworld" or "Homeworld: Cataclysm" to run the combat simulations. You'd have to find a way to pull the ship designs from se4 and put them in Homeworld, but as I recall, it is possible to mod the ships in Homeworld.

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Assume you have a 1kg squirrel
E=mc^2
E=1kg(3x10^8m/s)^2=9x10^16J
which, if I'm not mistaken, is equivilent to roughly a 50 megaton nuclear bomb.
Fear the squirrel.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atraikius:
I view any games AI as being only as good as the person who wrote it. With the AI in SE4 set up to be easily modified by the players, there should be virtually limitless possibilities for it.

I think the biggest problem with the games AI levels is that so much of the modifiable files are not fully understood by the people making the modifications. When you look at the races included in the game as they were originally, they were all fairly generic, only using a few different abilities or techs from the others. As each new modification for them is made, and each generation of custon Race Styles is seen they seem to get a little better. I see this as an example that the people that are writing up the AI are getting better thus the AI gets better.

What I think is really needed is a full description of how each line that can be edited is used in the program so that settings that currently are typically left alone because thier use isn't really understood could be developed to thier full potential. This should allow tremendous strides to be taken in making new Races since every feature could be tailored specifically for the race instead of just being essentially duplicated from a similar existing race.

From a addition to the structure of the game, what I would really like to see would be an additional (or 2) combat mode line in the strategy file, with qualifications for them. Then when I was modifing a race that primarily used missiles and Anti-Proton beams, I could set the primary attack strategy to Maximum Range, set with qualifiers such as: Enemy Range &gt; 5, and Move 50, then when that ship was involved in a battle, it would look at the enemy ships weapon range, and if the enemys range was greater than 5, it would use the Maximum weapons range strategy, otherwis it would go on to the next strategy, and the Move 50 qualifier would tell the AI that the ship should expend 50% of its movement to move into range and fire, then the remaining movement should be used to increase the range between itself and the enemy ship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree very much with you. The full description of all AI lines will however be quite a lot of work and MM has certainly not the time to do it. I think this forum is a good place where you can gather this information, even if is not sorted out like a manual.
The second point you mention about the AI reacting to enemy ships with different strategies would really be great. You could do the same for the design construction of it's ships. So e.g. if the AI is at war with a race that uses armor skipping weapons, it would switch to ship designs with less armor and more shields. I don't know how difficult this would be to program, but it sure would be very nice.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

Sounds like a bunch of people would pay money for an AI that learned from mistakes and altered tactics accordingly. Don't you think, though, that you might be asking for SEV? What would you pay money for that could be made available now (as opposed to 5 years from now)?

Edit: No, I'm not on MM's marketing staff!!

[This message has been edited by dmm (edited 29 March 2001).]

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

I most likely would pay for that, but then I would have to take a class to learn from my mistakes or the AI would eat my lunch. My playing stat already lets the AI get to a point were it gives me a workout.
If it used troops or pressed an advantage (attack a planet even though it's ships will run out of supplies.), I would be in major trouble.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

I view any games AI as being only as good as the person who wrote it. With the AI in SE4 set up to be easily modified by the players, there should be virtually limitless possibilities for it.

I think the biggest problem with the games AI levels is that so much of the modifiable files are not fully understood by the people making the modifications. When you look at the races included in the game as they were originally, they were all fairly generic, only using a few different abilities or techs from the others. As each new modification for them is made, and each generation of custon Race Styles is seen they seem to get a little better. I see this as an example that the people that are writing up the AI are getting better thus the AI gets better.

What I think is really needed is a full description of how each line that can be edited is used in the program so that settings that currently are typically left alone because thier use isn't really understood could be developed to thier full potential. This should allow tremendous strides to be taken in making new Races since every feature could be tailored specifically for the race instead of just being essentially duplicated from a similar existing race.

From a addition to the structure of the game, what I would really like to see would be an additional (or 2) combat mode line in the strategy file, with qualifications for them. Then when I was modifing a race that primarily used missiles and Anti-Proton beams, I could set the primary attack strategy to Maximum Range, set with qualifiers such as: Enemy Range &gt; 5, and Move 50, then when that ship was involved in a battle, it would look at the enemy ships weapon range, and if the enemys range was greater than 5, it would use the Maximum weapons range strategy, otherwis it would go on to the next strategy, and the Move 50 qualifier would tell the AI that the ship should expend 50% of its movement to move into range and fire, then the remaining movement should be used to increase the range between itself and the enemy ship.

Re: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is
 

Yes, an explanataion for each of the moddable files would be great http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif but then again maybe I would play the game even less if I was always fiddling with it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif