SP-ATGM
 

I have a feeling that modern APC based SP-ATGM too expensive in the game. FOr example:
BMP-3M, carry 9 men, have ATGM, 30mm autocannon, 100mm HE cannon, AGL and cost 258
tank T-90 cost 427
SP-ATGM Krizanema-S, armed only with ATGM, fire control 0, rangefinder 0, stabiliser 0.
cost 328,

I can buy BMP-3M with ATGM for about 30% less, or T-90 for 30% more. There is no insensetive to use SP-ATGM at all.
I think they should be made cheaper, or have some ability improved - like rangefinder/fire control/ability fire on move.

Re: SP-ATGM
 

The cost of these things is calculated mainly from their antitank lethality.
Launch the cost calculator tool and you'll see that some 90% of the cost of a SPATGM is made up of the weapon cost (weapon abilities * ammo loadout). For the same quantity and same anti-armor power, a missile weapon will be much more expensive than a gun weapon mainly because of the accuracy.

Compared to a missile-firing IFV or tank, SPATGMs tend to have more missiles, themselves deadlier (compare the data of a Krisantema and a Refleks).

I don't know about SPATGM/ATGM team RF and FC rating, that was a question I was going to ask too, so if Don or Andy or any game vet are around I also would like some info on why all these never seem to get decent electronics! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I think that basically these values are mostly needed for gun shots calculation, but then again I may be dead wrong!

But consider that if you add FC, stab or RF to a SPATGM or anything it will make it costlier, even if it doesn't immprove performance.

Re: SP-ATGM
 

Hmm, another way to improve SP-ATGM without cost increase would be reduce their size. For now they have size 3. Would it be realistic for them have size 2 ?

Re: SP-ATGM
 

One of the problems with SPATGMs is that they cannot be deployed in decent hull-down positions IMHO. In Combat Mission series you can do that because the terrain elevations are modelled more accurately. If they would be in hull-down position it would be very hard if not impossible to destroy them unles with other ATGMs, but they would be vulnerable from the side and rear. A size of 2 may be a good compromise.Or at least the fortified hexes would count as hull-down positions.

Another problem is related to the throw-away cheap armor. Since SPATGMs have few ammo players tend to trigger OP fire with cheap vechicles. A very usable feature would be to set the unit class on whicg the unit would open fire at what range. This kind of feature is implemented in the Campaign series games and it would be very much welcome here as well.

Artur.

Re: SP-ATGM
 

As they say, size doesn't matter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
No, frankly, I just tried a BRDM2-Konkurs with size 1, 2, 3 and the price stayed the same.

On the other hand, the same with FC=25, RF=22 (LRF), stab=3 jumped from 241 to 322. Haven't have time to test ingame yet.

Size 2 will make them harder to see... Are you sure you want that? And remember that the size rating encompasses the launch flash, which explains that missile teams have a higher size rating than snipers.

You talk about size=3, for which unit precisely?
Look out for the relative scaling of vehicles, lest you end up with size=0 vehicles or worse!

Re: SP-ATGM
 

If I change weapon in MOBHACK editor cost doesn't chane, correct ? It seems to me cost is not calculated automatically, it can be edited in MOBHACK. About size and launch flash : Jeep ATGM have size 2, and APC ATGM should have the same flash, so it would be logical for the tho have the same size if they have same/lower profile.

Re: SP-ATGM
 

AFAIK that's right.
Right, but there is a CostCalculator.exe tool (in the OOB folder) to help standardize it all, which you have to run over your OOB after you have customized it. That is what I used as a comparison.APCs tend to be bigger, taller, noisier than jeeps, hence a diference in size to begin with. ATGM flash adds to it in any case.

Re: SP-ATGM
 

APC ATGM with retractable launchers seems have lower profile than ATGM Jeeps.

Re: SP-ATGM
 

You can retract all that you want from a M-113 track, it will still be nearly 2m high, while your basic jeep is merely 1m on top of the trunk.
I admit that most ATGM launchers will add nothing to the target size of an AFV, particularly if retractable. Only the flash will account for the superior size, and the gameplay consideration of invisible tank hunters being absolute killers on a mechanized battlefield.

Re: SP-ATGM
 

I'll try to make some tests for size 2 SP-ATGM. Also for SP-ATGM with FAE missiles.

Re: SP-ATGM
 

Units with lower size will show up later, even when firing. From what I know that is all that it will change, maybe the probability of arty hit (?).

If you can tell me how to make FAE missiles, I'm in for it.
FAE rockets are no problem, even with an alternate HEAT or underlying KE warhead.

Re: SP-ATGM
 

I'll try to model russian 9M123F

comparing to 9M123 HEAT ATGM missile those filed changed:

Weapon class 9 Vehicle flame (the same as for TOS-1 220mm FAE roket launcher)

HE kill 60 (for 105mm TBG-7V FAE it is 55 and for 220mm FAE rocket it is 140)

HEAT penetration 40 ( for 105mm TBG-7V it is 33)

I put it on the second launcher for Krizantema-S
(real Krizantena have two launchers)

Re: SP-ATGM
 

I have started testing. Havn't seen AI using them yet, but new BMP with FAE and HEAT ATGMs a lot more interesting. The only problem that because of FAE roket now "vehicle flame" APC can fire on move, and I suspect FAE roket is not affected by VRISS/ARENA. May be better live them as ATGM type but make HE instead of HEAT.

Re: SP-ATGM
 

Final modifications:
BMP-3 Kornet and Krizantena-S get second launcher (they both really have two launchers) and size 2 (they are both have low profile and their launcher retractable)

"Vehicle flame" is not realistict to depict FAE ATGM, so I use HE ATGM instead (BTW Both Krizantema and Kornet have HE ATGM, but for our porpose I combine both in one)

Krinantema HE ATGM:
9M123F
Weapon class: ATGM (13)
HE penetration: 15
HE Kill: 80
HEAT penetration : 40
the rest of data as 9M123
Kornet HE ATGM
9M133F
Weapon class: ATGM
HE penetration: 20
HE Kill: 90
HEAT penetration : 60

Added two vehicle modificatin:
Krizantema-S F and BMP-3 Kornet F.Both have HE ATGM on the second launcher

Test:
Meeting engagement Russia-Russia 2008
AI 6000 pnt
Human 4000
AI force:
4 T80UM (V)
Krizantema-S pl understength(2)
BMP-3 Kornet pl
Krizantema-S F pl
BMP-3 Kornet F pl
BMP-3M (RA) Rifle pl
Human force
4 T80UM (V)
Krizantema-S F pl
BMP-3 Kornet F pl
2 RPO-Shmel/A team = 2 x (BMP-3M (RA) + 2 x RPO Shmel Team)

I have moved my force forward, killed AI tanks with my tanks, encountered BMP's and killed them with tanks and SP-ATGM's Used HE ATGM to route enemy mech infantry. Lost 2 SP-ATGM in the process.
After that I tried to advance and was fired at by enemy SP-ATGM. Lost tank. Couple SP_ATGM got visible. I have advanced tanks past hill and killed one. On AI tourn AI killed advanced tank with SP-ATGM. After that AI SP-ATGMs started advance in leapfroginng manner, some overwath while other move. My attemtps to counterattack were unsuccessful - remaining tanks get suppressed, my ATGM were not concentrated, blocked by hills and get killed as I tried to get them LOS. At the end I lost all my armor in fitile attempts to bring it to action.
AI handling of SP ATGM was exellent. Dual launcher and size 2 made it very effective tank killers, while HE ATGM was good anty-infantry weapon. Now I think they are worth their cost.
modified russian OOB attached (only Krizantema and Kornet SP ATGM modified)

Re: SP-ATGM
 

Why did you need to create a new missile for the HE version?
Just add the following to your base weapon (Krisantema):

HE kill=60
HE penetration=10 (values at discretion)

And then add HE ammo to the launcher, besides the HEAT ammo.
It already works this way with rockets (RPG-7V, AT-4, Pzfst-3...).

And about FAE ATGMs, well, you got right to the same point as I did, that is, FAE rockets.
I still have to test HEAT napalm, to have a multi-purpose RPG-7V with nice shiny TBG-7V fireballs...

Re: SP-ATGM
 

That should work...