Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

This one being my first post here, I would like to thank Andy, Don, & The Camo Workshop for what is, IMHO, the best version of SP ever - God, after 10 years - SP, SP2, SP3, SPWAW - I can reverse a tank!!http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

However, perhaps the accuracy (for the tank's main guns) values should be reviewed, since my impression is that they do not represent the tank gun's actual accuracy. The rule of thumb in WinSPMBT is "the length in calibers divided by 4" (this is from the manual, under the item "Accuracy"). So, a German 120mm L/55, will have an accuracy value of 14, and the German 120mm L/44 will have an accuracy value of only 11... The same with the American M256 of the all versions of the M1A1/A2. And the Israeli 120mm of the Merkava and each and every tank that uses some 120mm L/44, too. And then we have the British Challenger's guns, with an accuracy value going up to 16 (I am not bashing the British rifled 120mm guns - they are deadly accurate, but perhaps not so much more than the German 120mm L/44, which has a value of only 11), and the Soviet/Russian 125mm guns a value of 13.

Would Rheinmetall design a gun less accurate than the Soviet 125mm guns? I don't believe so. That's against the company's tradition and reputation. And no, I don't work for Rheinmetall...;)

I just want to point out that maybe gun length is not the best factor in determining tank gun accuracy, there are many other factors involved such as the quality of the materials used in the gun itself and how it behaves with the propellant used, the chamber pressure, etc. All these factors are exclusive of the tank gun itself, not the FCS. And they are relevant where accuracy is concerned.

I am really not convinced of the "longest gun is the most accurate one" accuracy principle, specially when the latest tank guns are compared to the old Soviet guns. I mean, by the time of their respective development and posterior deployment, why the Hell would Germany and the US implement a gun on the Leopard 2 and M1A1 Abrams that were less accurate than the guns used in the same Soviet tanks they were supposed to defeat? Again, I am not speaking of the effects of the different FCS systems used, I am referring to raw gun accuracy.

Most respectfully, I would like to hear Andy and Don's comments on this issue.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Hullo kevineduguay1... **Waves** http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

If you're not, then appolgies. There's been this disscussion over at the DosMBT group, the following reply was given (Edward is talking about the formula used for working out the ACC):

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

In fact, US Army had accuracy problems during testing german 120mm L55 Gun firing new US APFSDS rounds (M829A2,M829A3)Its accuracy with this rounds was much worse than with M256 gun (L44)

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Discusion on Yahoo board is quite big. Accuracy system works great until 1970, after this date new ammunitions are avaiable and this should be taken into account. I know that most of datas are classified, so you need a formula that will work for all tanks with data avaiable. My sugesstion is use L/D ratio of APFSDS projectiles as measurment for accuracy and degree of technology of tank gun. Soviet tank guns were quite unaccurate at ranges over 1600m,they used APFSDS rounds with L/D ratio 10:1 - 13:1,newest projectiles has better accuracy (BM-42,BM-42M etc...)guns that fires them are upgraded so they can fire longer rounds with better L/D (20:1, autoloader prevents to use longer rounds such as US M829A2 or A3 with L/D 30:1 - 37:1).Western tanks started with L/D 10:1 (M735) but they develop better ammo quite soon as M774(not so sure but it is in L/D 15:1 - 20:1 region) M833 (L/D around 20:1) or M900 (L/D 30:1).
Im not suggesting use L/D value as a acc value, but just better variable than lenght of gun.Soviet HEAT ammo for example are stated as more accurate as APFSDS rounds (0,2mil dispersion for HEAT-FS and 0,25-0,3mil for APFSDS)

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Appologies accepted. I am not kevineduguay1... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I don't think that a 2 points difference is ridiculous, because it affects not only the Abrams, but also the Leo 2 (up to the A4), Merkava...etc. What seems ridiculous is Western 120mm L/44 being rated as inferior to old Soviet 125mm guns. I am not ignoring other problems with the accuracy formula, it's just that as I have a little more knowledge on tank guns performance, it came to my attention first.

By this formula, who can garantee that even the Leo 2A6 120mm L/55 accuracy of 14 is right? Or even the Challenger's rilfed guns? What we need is a better general formula.

Finally, I still remain with the same doubts I posted.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif
But thanks for the answer, anyway.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Yep. I know that. But this was due to the incompatibilities of the new German gun with the US DU APFSDS rounds, that were developed to maximize the potential of the 120mm M256 gun. This does not implies, in any way, that the Rheinmetall 120mm L/55 would be less accurate than the 120mm M256 (a modified Rh 120mm L/44 gun), once the DU ammunition is optimized for this gun.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

That's interesting. Thank you. However, I still would like so much to hear from Andy and Don on this subject...

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Me too.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

By the way, i have some numbers about our Slovak modernisation of 2A46 gun (2A46MS) from Slovak military bulletin, gun during tests was 30% more accurate than original gun

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I am interested in those tests data. Can you post it on this Forum?

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

yes,i will post them, yust need to translate them to english,tomorow

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

We will be having a look at this, but what Ed said in the quotation is very true - you also need to look at the other inter-related values used (such as range finder and fire control).

Cheers
Andy

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I dont forgeting FC and Rangefinder. For example if you have a T80UM tank (Crew exp 90)with FC 40 and RF 22(ACC13), you will have better accuracy at longer ranges than M1A1 tank (FC 40,RF22,ACC11 with same crew exp 90),but in reality M1A1 will be much accurate with its ammo such as M829A2 (L/D 30:1) over Russian BM-32,42 rounds (L/D 13:1-15:1).
Accuracy of ammunition is a key factor, that cant be ignored.Much more important than lenght of gun, and is a best measure of technology, gun that can handle those long rods are far superior to those that are not able to fire them. Shorter and more robust rod, the worst accuracy it has over longer distance.First soviet APFSDS rounds were 43-47mm L/D 10:1, their accuracy was bad at ranges bigger than 1500m.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

A the other side, i like more your values than those in original SSI Steel Panthers 2. In SSI OOB 120mm smothbore guns had accuracy over 35,125mm guns 25 (same as 105mm)Your lower values are good, the only problem with them that weapons are not modeled correctly. Lenght of gun is not good variable for accuracy of smothbore guns. It has much more to do with kinetic energy than accuracy.My suggested values for tank gun accuracy are:

L/D Value
10.........................11
15.........................12
20.........................13
25.........................14
30.........................15
35 and more........ 16

I reworked most of OOB with those values. Those values dont change much, as those values dont make big difference to your values, but they make older guns( with old ammo ) less accurate than modern guns over longer range as rangefinder and firecontrol value make all guns to have accuracy to 1200-1600m over 90%.With this you should see difference between same tanks with different ammunition,(like T-64B in Russian OOB, T-64B with BM-29 from 1983 will have lower accuracy than same T-64B with BM-42M in 1998 or M1A1 from 1987 with M829 will be less accurate than M1A1 from 2003 armed with M829A2)

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

link for L/D values of most of soviet APFSDS rounds :
http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/ARM/apfsds/ammo.html

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Thank you. I really appreciate it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Thank you. I really think this issue deserves it. I am well aware of the effects of the FCS, but what we are discussing here is the raw performance of the tank guns, in terms of accuracy. JaM really has a point when he makes a link between accuracy and the ammunition used.

Best regards, and thank you for your efforts in providing us with the best SP version ever. I have just received my CD (version 1.012), works like a charm and the improvements are terrific. I strongly reccomend everyone to buy the CD version. It's worth every cent.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

http://www.rheinmetall-detec.com/ind...&action=pd

http://www.defense-update.com/products/digits/120ke.htm

notice that ammo is almost as important as the gun itself!

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I just finished a complete OOBS update of the 120mm tank gun accuracy. The 120mm L/44 goes from 11 to 14 or 15, depending on the ammunition used (APFSDS) The 120mm L/55 went from 14 to 16. Also modified the front armor (turret only) of the M1A2 SEP Abrams and Leopard 2A6 and A6EX.

The modified OOBS are available for download at my WinSPMBT page, and the zip version attached in this post.

As with any OOB dealing with modern MBT data, the values used reflect only my personal estimative - so use them at your own risk...;) Anyway, I think those modifications enhanced gameplay, and are well within the overall WinSPMBT TO&E concept.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

We've already done our own modification to smoothbore gun accuracy but expanded that to include Russian derived guns as well as all nations using the "krupp" 120mm gun. When making adjustments like this all nations have to be taken into consideration. The Accuracy number has only a limited effect on the to-hit %. Things like crew skill and FC and RF have more influence but we have taken all these guns into consideration and made modifications to a very large number of OOB's

Don

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I don't suppose you would care to divulge the formula for to-hit%??? I'm slightly curious but mostly I raise the question so that everyone can see just how teeny the ACC value is in relation to the-whole-situation.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I am looking forward to it! Just as a side note, I took into consideration all nations, too. And I also considered other 120mm guns other than the Rheinmetall L/44 and L/55, although I admit I concentrated much more on the German guns, because I have much more knowledge about them.

The MBT I know better is the M1A1 and derivatives up to the M1A2 SEP. Next, comes the Leopard 2, from the beginning up to the A6. Next, there is the Tigers of WW2, but thay are out of the context here, anyway.

Is there any possibility that we could have your new OOB pack for testing before the patch is released? I don't think this would do any harm whatsoever. Since I am twaeking with the OOBS already, I really would like to see what you guys, who have tons of experience with this game more than I wll ever do, have done. So I can learn what and how things interact to determine accuracy for the MBT guns.

Thank you for this wonderful game. I can't thank you enough for the most pleasurable wargaming-addicted lack of sleep since 1994...

The last wargame that grasped my interest like this one was the venerable TANKS by Norm Koger. The SP series was interesting, SPWAW included, but none really took my heart by assault like WinSPMBT. I can see I missed a lot not being able to run DOS games like SPWW2 and SPMBT in Win2K, which is my OS of choice for my two PCs...

You guys ROCK! WOO-HAH!http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Best regards,

FAP

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Nope, sorry. It's just confuses people when we do that (trust me on this ). As well there are OOB's with new Icons and new pics, and new picklist and before we know it the "pre-release" patch ends up almost as big as the actual one

We are testing it internally

Don

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

What about Sabot max range? Now, if you have russian gun and western gun with same penetration, they will have same effectivity, but in real world, soviet APFSDS rounds loose their speed and energy sooner than longer western APFSDS.So we have for example round from early 1970, with the same range as Silver bullet from 1991, but in real M829A1 had effective range over 3,5km and BM-15 around 2km.BM-15 loose over 150m/s/km. M829A1 around 50m/s/km.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Roger that. I can understand the situation. There are so many changes besides the issue of accuracy, that it would cause problems. But could you give me some more details, like, say the new values you are using (that affect accuracy) for the M1A1/ 2 or the Leopard 2A6, so I can go on further on my own? FC and RF I can understand and make some experiments with them, but crew skill are hard-coded, isn't it? I can alter the experience and morale modifiers in the OOBS, but how can I modify crew skill, other than via scenario editor?

Again, thanks so much for your kindness.

FAP

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I have a real big problem with accuracy. An information I have read said in the 80's that NATO (US,UK and Germany mainly) were able to get a one shot one kill(1:1)ratio within 2000 meters. I am lucky to get one kill a turn in the game. That is sitting in a top down elevated postion, sitting still with no obstructions.

I can't even HIT a bunker sitting next to it. Forget KILLING it with one shot but, it won't even HIT the darn thing. I had a whole platoon around it and NONE of then could hit it!!!

I think a M1A2 could knock out a fixed postion with atleast two shots of HE or HEAT.

I tried different vehicles also.
M3A3 couldn't hit it much less kill it.
I tried the tow launcher from the M3A3, It would not go above 13%.

You tell me am I crazy.


BTW, I ended up moving engineers up, the first squad got cut down (of course, after shooting everything I had it was not even pinned) and a second squad took it out in TWO shots with TB grenades and a satchel charge.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

@ M256: hope you didn´t overdo it ? since we want also some challenge in the game playing as US or GER....i woul dbe a better solution to make some russian stuff more cheaper, so player can buy more, which would model to a decree the numbers of the eastern units that woul dbe thrown against us in the 80ties or 70ties....

btw: do you have some space left on your fine page ? i have a modified german OOB which could fit there.....

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

What you need to do is play more and gain some experience on how these things are handled. They are quite capabale of being destroyed without having to take massive losses. I would also suggest you avoid the Marines campaign until you have played awhile otherwise the spider holes will be a serious "problem" for you ( as they can be for many people ) However, I know they are all " defeatable " with proper tactics and a bit of game experience

Don

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I guess the fact that a PLATOON of M1A2 cannot kill a MG pit is My problem not the ability of the weapon. I'll make sure I tell my brother-in-law to leave his armor support back at the base, because it is useless to them.

LOL... what a joke answer. You are telling me that 4 tanks 50 meter cannot kill much less hit a target??? Are you telling me all the advanced FC and RF and ACC is useless??

I have been playing SP games and wargames for 12 years so don't tell me about what I need to do. I might as well go back to WAW, atleast the WW2 era weapons are pretty consistant. BTW, I've been through the MARINE campaign several time that was fun, glad I didn't have M1's might have been a BIg problem...

Sorry to everyone else for my return rant.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I'll tell you what. You send me your save with your platoon of M1A2's sitting next to a bunker that cannot be hit and I'll look at it


As strange and this may seem to you I HAVE heard this all before in regards to bunkers and especially spiderholes (which totally mess with some peoples heads) and I have demonstrated with a save game example how to destroy these things when others said it was quite simply impossible. So dig out you save and attach it to a post and as I said, I will look at this becasue there are more than one kind of "bunker" and without seeing what you were dealing with I can only guess


Ah but see the problem here is WinSPMBT is NOT WAW and what works there may not work here becasue there were two entirly different groups developing both games with very different ideas on how the game should work. Send me your example of "I can't even HIT a bunker sitting next to it. " and I will look into it. Glad you liked the Marine campaign.

Don

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Sorry so late, but i have problems to find this buletin.It is writen in Slovak and too technical, so im not able to translate it corectly.But there were two tables. Tab.1 with sumary of comparation fire with sabot ammunition at 1000m with gun fitted externally:
N500 ................ N250
TK.....2A46....YA1.........2A46....YA1
Y......81.......95..............48........67
Z......43.......95..............10........62

Y- horisontal
Z-vertical
N500- percentual share of hits on tagret, in 500mm distance from middle of target
N250- percentual share of hits on target, in 250mm distance from middle of target


Tab.2 is propability of hit from T-72 tank with first shot using APFSDS round at 2000m

Propability with tank gun Rate
2A46..........YA1..........YA1/2A46
0,57..........0,7.............1,23


YA1 is prototype of 2A46MS tank gun.Those tests were made in 1998.

I can send you by mail scanned pages.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Just for fun I went ahead and built a test scenario using all the factors you gave me . If there is a problem with the game I want to deal with it ASAP.

-"a PLATOON of M1A2"
-"a MG pit"
- "can't even HIT a bunker sitting next to it. Forget KILLING it with one shot"


So I built this sceanrio with three MG pits and each one had a platoon of M1A2's around it with three sitting in the hex directly adjacent to the Mg pit's field of fire with one sitting back one hex further

Now, does that sound similar to the situation you were in? I think I covered everything. The platoon of M1A2 all with top of the line RF and FC. A MG pit as those are size zero and that makes a big difference in hitting and the tanks were directly adjacent to the fortification. That's pretty much what you described in you first email....correct??

Then I fired the M1A2 sitting right in front of the MG pit. All three were "one shot, one kill".
The save game is attached.

Maybe I'm just lucky but that seem unlikely three times in a row.

I'm still interested in your save if you have one. There may be extenuating circumstances that caused your units to miss consistently

Don

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Hi, Alpha,

Have you tried my modified OOBS?

Well, I don't think I overrated the 120mm guns accuracy... What I did was to put things in perspective within the game's own constraints. It's most unrealistic to have the 120mm L/44 (when I say 120mm L/44 I am NOT referring exclusively to the Rheinmetall gun. I am using this qualification to represent ANY smoothbore 120mm tank gun with a length of 44 calibers) with an accuracy value of 11 when older Soviet 125mm guns are rated 13.

So, I modified the basic 120mm L/44 accuracy to 14. This is still NOT realistic. The accuracy should be higher. But not to disrupt game balance, I kept it to 14.

I was very pleased with the result, but - hey, this is just me. I welcome any positive criticism. What values do you suggest I should use as accuracy for the 120mm guns?

How you would make Russian equipment cheaper? I totally agree the most realistic situation is the traditional "Cold War" one. Hordes of cheap and inferior Soviet tanks against high-quality, high-performance, but seriously outnumbered western tanks.

I have as much space in my website as you want, for you and anyone else interested to post anything related to WinSPMBT - New OOBS, Scenarios, Campaigns, the works...

I am really decided to support Andy, Don, and the Camo Workshop. But the success of any supporting web page or web site depends mainly of the wargamers sending their work to be shared with the community. This I can tell for experience.

I am proud to say that my web site was the main supporting site for SPWAW right from the beginning for a long time. The success we achieved was the result of a combination of my commitment to provide the highest quality web site I could within my possibilities; the wargamers - providing scenarios, campaigns, OOBS, utilities, etc, and the support of friends like Wild Bill Wilder, Brent Richards, and many other talented scenario and campaign designers.

Just send me a private e-mail with your modified German OOB attached and with the info about this OOB to fprado@fprado.com. It will be my pleasure to post it.

Best regards,

Fab

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Thank you. This is very interesting info.http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

If there is not any inconvenience to you, I would like to take a look at the scanned pages. My e-mail address: fprado@fprado.com

Best regards,

Fab

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

hi fabio,

thanx for all the info.

i agree mainly with your thoughts...but can´t comment on it
seriously cause i don´t know the game mechanism good enough. i played the DOS version of this game only a short time, but now it´s another matter and i like this win version very much.

i also come from SPWAW and i know your name and the others you mentioned, perhaps you also remember me from the matrix forum, my name there was (is ? ) frank w.

yes, your page is cool, this is the reason i want you post my stuff there and also i recommend your page to other wargamers.

perhaps you played H2H ?? check the prices for the russian stuff there. in PBM the russian player can outweight the quite bad accuracy of his tanks with mass. i thought simmilar for this game. but i don´t have enough knowlegde on modern armor...except some websites i read for info on my OOB stuff ( and also some personal experience from my time in the luftwaffe of course i hadn´t much to do with tanks there LOL )...i didn´t touch MBT, APC and IFV at all in my OOB...ohhh i post the the info just here so everyone can read it:

GERMAN updated OOB by ALPHA:
 

Fabio: I´ll send it to your email adress at the weekend. need to do some additional testing if formations work in timeframe and if prices are balanced !

--------
Changes:

Weapons added:
--------------

- HK 502 shotgun
- 2 police weapons
- Roland 2 AA missile

Units added:
-----------

- Polizei Trupp ( represent civil police but also "Feldjaeger of the Bundeswehr )
- Bundesgrenzschutz troops ( BGS - paramilitary German forces without conscripts so a bit better exp + morale than normal grunts )
- Luftwaffe Sicherung ( LW - Sich, these are LW troops mainly for the protection of airfields, Nato bunkers, radars, AA instalations etc. )
- Kampfschwimmer ( elite diver troops of the Bundesmarine )
- Pionierpanzer 2 Dachs ( impr. version of PioPz. 1 )
- Roland 2 FlaRak ( impr. version of Roland 1 )
- AA MG unit
- Mehrzweck Raupe ( Bulldozer - use like eng. tanks )
- Gep. LKW ( represents armored trucks like in use at the balcans KFOR )
- some fort types added

Most of these units you´ll find in the "misc" folder.....


Changes to:
-----------

Mountain troops, Boxer IFV, PzH2000, Bell UH1D, SP mortars ammo loadout ( older lowered ) , Alouette carry lowered, Luchs, Wiesel 1 + 2, Kraka, Stinger now Fliegerfaust 2, some names changed....and much other stuff. ( for example i found a wiesel in the orig OOB with 21 (!!) TOW missiles - corrected to real loadout of 8 ! )
-------------

Re: GERMAN updated OOB by ALPHA:
 

That's it. Ladies and gentlemen, by the weekend, a new revised German OOB by Alpha will be available at the Armorsite's WinSPMBT Page! Enjoy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Yep. I remember H2H pretty well. Excellent mod. Let's wait the upcoming patch that Andy and Don are working on right now and then we'll look at the possibilities. I'm saying this because it seems that the OOBS are an item which are receiving "special treatment"...

So, I will hold until I can see what changes the new OOBS included in the patch will bring (specially in the area of MBT's main gun accuracy), before making any more OOB tweaking. But I agree with your concept 100%.

Best regards,

Fab

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

thx. yeahh, better wait for patch.

btw: this animal is missing also from teh ger OOB:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Zwijntje.JPG

( guess what it is ? ) LOL

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Isn't it the "Keiler"? ROTFL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Hello folks!

I finnaly made it onto this site.

M256, I like your ideas with the 120mm guns but also look at the sabot range as this effects long range hitting power also. Notice that the latter Russian 125mm guns have a greater sabot range than most if not all the 120mm's. This has to be looked at especially when in another post it was pointed out that the Russian ammo lost energy more quickly than the rounds used by Western countries. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

seems the "keiler" is build using a M48 hull.

so i could use this as base, but what armor vlues should
be chosen for the turret armor ( i mean the keiler has no turret ) how is this calculated by the game ?

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

M256,

Another thing to consider when looking at accuracy is the ammunition as mentioned in one of the above posts.

There are no less than 6 versions of the M256 gun in the US OOB. All have improvements in sabot penetration. This just cannot be. The reason is that there are only 4 DU penetrators.
IMHO the first one, the M829 was not very efficient and was not the kill all bullet the Army was looking for. It also had some accuracy problems. So for these reasons I would suggest changing weapon #100-120mm M256 86 to Accuracy--11 Sabot Pen--52.

The next gun shows up in 1988, the time of the "Silver Bullet", the M829A1. This is weapon # 101. Accuracy for this gun should be kicked up to 12 or 13 and the Sabot Pen up from 62 to 82. This round was going through sand burms and still destroying T-72s. You may want to up the Sabot Range to 125 also.

Weapon #102 120mm M256-91 should be a clone of the 1988 weapon. I cant find any improvements to either the gun tube or ammunition to warrent any changes. The real changes may be on the Tank itself.

Weapon #247 120mm M256-94 Introduces the M256 A2. This penetrator is a vasts improvement in hitting pover and accuracy over the "Silver Bullet"(A1). Moving at least 100M/Sec faster and with a better designed pennetrator this is a very accurate round and leathal at longer ranges. With this in mind I suggest a Accuracy rating of 13 to 14 and a Sabot Pen of 95. Sabot Range could remain at 125. There should also be a change to the HEAT PED from 60 to 78. 1994 is when the M830A1 was fielded. This HEAT round was more accurate and out performed the original M830 against light armoured vehicles by 30%. Can be used as an AP round and against helicopters

The last M829 Sabot/DU began mass production in 2001 or 02 and is now in use. This is the M829A3. One source that I found says that this round has a 70% better kill ability over the M829A2 and a 30% to 70% better hit probability. I have some doubts on these figures. But consider this, the first M829 rounds weighed about 41+ pounds. This one is stated as being just under 56 pounds. With all the composit materials to reduce the weight of the round and reduce barrel ware, how much does the penetrator weigh now? My best guess with out sabot is 5 or more kg. This round is described as having increased velocity and more long range accuracy. It was designed to defeat all armored threats even those protected by ERA. With this in mind I would kick this weapon up a notch!
The weapon is #105 120mm M256-03. Sabot Pen 100, Sabot Range 130.

We still have weapon #125 120mm M256-07 to deal with.
In the future there will be inprovements in the ammunition for the 120mm gun. If you dont belive that then just use weapon #124 140mm NATO10. reduce the ammo load out a little and mount it on an Abrams.

However, If you think we can and will improve things, try this.
Accuracy 15, HE Kill-16, Sabot Pen-1010. Sabot Range-135, HEAT Pen-82.
Its not the 140mm but its close!

Hope this helps with future OOBs. Now its time to work on the 25mm! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

All above info is just a suggestion and is based on everthing I could find in books and on the web. I edited because I had to do a date check for when the rounds in question were actually available. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif





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Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

No. 120mm M256 gun 86 represents M827 APFSDS round, first US 120mm APFSDS.M827 was capable penetrate around 450mm at 2000m
M829 was quite powerfull.It was capable kill any Russian tank in this time, only Kontakt-5 equipped tanks could survive hits (Kontakt-5 tanks were not so numerous...)
M829A1 was fielded somewhere around 1990-91
M829A2 around 1994-95 and newest APFSDS M829A3 around 2004-2005.

Value 13 is not enough for 120mm APFSDS or HEAT-FS.They are much more accurate. I have made some tests with game, and actual accuracy is too low after 70 era.
M1 Abrams with 105mm gun is capable hit target with first round at 2000m with propability around 80%. In game with crew with exp 70 it is only 60%. You need crew with exp 100 or higher to have 80% propability,so we need way to make modern MBTs much more accurate, at least +20%

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Hi, kevineduguay1.

I'm glad you made it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

On your comments about newer Russian tanks capabilities, I quote the best source for modern Russian armor over the Internet, Vasiliy Fufanov's Modern Russian Armor:

Fab

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I agree with you, JaM. 110%. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Fab

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

I found something strange. Im trying to find better accuracy ratings for guns, but during my tests i found that Firecontrol rating do only a minor bonus to accuracy.During my tests i tryed gun with acc 20, rangefinder 30 and firecontrol 0. i had accuracy at 2000m (target size 4) 64%. When i rised FC at 20,it rised accuracy to 70%, FC 40 made up to 76%. So only +6% at 2000m with 20 point Fire Control.Isnt it too low?

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Is the figure of 80% to hit @ 2000 yards, etc a figure given by US Army? Is it done at a known range course? The reason I'm asking is because the US Army in particular has been wildly optimistic with information such as this. If we had a third party confirmation of this info I'd be much more likely to accept it.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

Jam,

I read about this round somewhere but just cant remember. Was this a tungsten penetrator?

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

JaM,

The gun accuracy was a problem in the early years with the 120mm. But you may have a point! Maybe the fire controle range finder and stabiliser ratings are not up to par? Thats also not including crew ratings. American troops fire more rounds in any training exersise than any other nation. This shoul beef up our experiance and some other rateings in the game.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.
 

M256,

Just read an article on the web talking about Russian 125mm Sabot ammo. They were said to be able to pen 580 to 650mm of armor but because of yaw or instability in flight at long ranges they were barely able to pen 350mm. For the size of the gun this is around WWII standards. They are now developing newer APFSDS rounds and may have them in service.