Technological arms races
 

What is your opinion on taking cloaking & sensors, and giving them something like 12 levels?

The research costs go up rapidly, so its not worth researching all the way to the top, but you still have to keep one step ahead of your opponent http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

And before contact, you have to decide how far to go in each, and when to devote to battle techs.
"Is sensors VII enough? What if somebodys sneaking around here with Cloak VIII? Is it worth worrying about?"
With lots of levels, you can get the distinct atmosphere of paranoia http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Also, with sufficiently advanced sensors, you could detect low-tech mines, higher level mines would still be invisible, or have a super-cloak component you can add.

Re: Technological arms races
 

I like it. I'm all for putting as much strategy in as possible. I had toyed with the idea of mine and creating one type of mine that was visible to each type of sensor, one that was visible without any sensors and one that was always invisible but I got no time to test them. Plus I'm great at adding the extra blank line it seems and screwing it up http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Technological arms races
 

I was thinking about adding in individual cloaking items to cloak to higher levels on each individual cloaking type.

It would end up with a ship cloaked against all as long as they had one of each of the 5 components needed to cloak to that level.

so a cloaking unit for each of
active em, passive em, psychic em, gravitic , and temporal.

So if each cloaking unit is 40KT apiece that is going to take up 200KT of space and probably cost quite a bit and perhaps require a cloaking device already and these add to it.

If you don't use one perhaps that temporal race can see you but you might not care about them but you do about the psychics so they don't take your ships.

Re: Technological arms races
 

These are good ideas. Can they be implemented as a mod, with current SEIV code? Or would MM need to change the code to allow someone to implement it?

Re: Technological arms races
 

Taking a look at components.txt for the Cloaking Device, you see that it has five abilities--one each to prevent EM active, EM passive, Psychic, Gravitic and Temporal Scans. So, it is easily possible to add this cool idea to the game.

Re: Technological arms races
 

I have been doing the mine s with cloaking components for some time now. They seem to work OK!

You just design a component that is a small one of the the normal one, as for weapons.
I also have a scanner jammer available as well.

The whole idea of this game is a sacrifice available room to what you want it to do, Do I put another warhead in it and make it visible or hide it?

I like the idea of the very high tech levels of scanners Vs cloaking. This was one of my reasons to remove the normal cloaking ability from the mines and made them have a cloaking component.

Re: Technological arms races
 

I did not raise the cloaking level, but added a additional tech requirements. Cloaking 1 is now not available until Physics 4. I also added a propulsion requirement to provide the necessary power to cloak. Each Cloaking Level also has higher Physics and Propulsion requirements. For Sensors I just added Physics at 1 level higher than the Cloaking level.

I also did the same with some other components I thought were very powerful and too easy to get.

Name := Cloaking Device I
Description := Field generated around a starship which passes all energy around the ship. This field has the effect of rendering the ship invisible.
Pic Num := 38
Tonnage Space Taken := 40
Tonnage Structure := 40
Cost Minerals := 1000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 500
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat
Supply Amount Used := 100
Restrictions := None
General Group := Shields
Family := 26
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Cloaking
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Propulsion
Tech Level Req 2 := 4
Number of Abilities := 5
Ability 1 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 1 Descr := Prevents level 1 Active EM scans.
Ability 1 Val 1 := EM Active
Ability 1 Val 2 := 2
Ability 2 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 2 Descr := Prevents level 1 Passive EM scans.
Ability 2 Val 1 := EM Passive
Ability 2 Val 2 := 2
Ability 3 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 3 Descr := Prevents level 1 Psychic scans.
Ability 3 Val 1 := Psychic
Ability 3 Val 2 := 2
Ability 4 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 4 Descr := Prevents level 1 Gravitic scans.
Ability 4 Val 1 := Gravitic
Ability 4 Val 2 := 2
Ability 5 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 5 Descr := Prevents level 1 Temporal scans.
Ability 5 Val 1 := Temporal
Ability 5 Val 2 := 2
Weapon Type := None

Name := Cloaking Device II
Description := Field generated around a starship which passes all energy around the ship. This field has the effect of rendering the ship invisible.
Pic Num := 38
Tonnage Space Taken := 40
Tonnage Structure := 40
Cost Minerals := 1500
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 600
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat
Supply Amount Used := 100
Restrictions := None
General Group := Shields
Family := 26
Roman Numeral := 2
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Cloaking
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Tech Area Req 2 := Propulsion
Tech Level Req 2 := 6
Tech Area Req 3 := Physics
Tech Level Req 3 := 5
Number of Abilities := 5
Ability 1 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 1 Descr := Prevents level 2 Active EM scans.
Ability 1 Val 1 := EM Active
Ability 1 Val 2 := 3
Ability 2 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 2 Descr := Prevents level 2 Passive EM scans.
Ability 2 Val 1 := EM Passive
Ability 2 Val 2 := 3
Ability 3 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 3 Descr := Prevents level 2 Psychic scans.
Ability 3 Val 1 := Psychic
Ability 3 Val 2 := 3
Ability 4 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 4 Descr := Prevents level 2 Gravitic scans.
Ability 4 Val 1 := Gravitic
Ability 4 Val 2 := 3
Ability 5 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 5 Descr := Prevents level 2 Temporal scans.
Ability 5 Val 1 := Temporal
Ability 5 Val 2 := 3
Weapon Type := None

Name := Cloaking Device III
Description := Field generated around a starship which passes all energy around the ship. This field has the effect of rendering the ship invisible.
Pic Num := 38
Tonnage Space Taken := 40
Tonnage Structure := 40
Cost Minerals := 2000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 700
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat
Supply Amount Used := 100
Restrictions := None
General Group := Shields
Family := 26
Roman Numeral := 3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 3
Tech Area Req 1 := Cloaking
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Tech Area Req 2 := Propulsion
Tech Level Req 2 := 8
Tech Area Req 3 := Physics
Tech Level Req 3 := 6
Number of Abilities := 5
Ability 1 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 1 Descr := Prevents level 3 Active EM scans.
Ability 1 Val 1 := EM Active
Ability 1 Val 2 := 4
Ability 2 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 2 Descr := Prevents level 3 Passive EM scans.
Ability 2 Val 1 := EM Passive
Ability 2 Val 2 := 4
Ability 3 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 3 Descr := Prevents level 3 Psychic scans.
Ability 3 Val 1 := Psychic
Ability 3 Val 2 := 4
Ability 4 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 4 Descr := Prevents level 3 Gravitic scans.
Ability 4 Val 1 := Gravitic
Ability 4 Val 2 := 4
Ability 5 Type := Cloak Level
Ability 5 Descr := Prevents level 3 Temporal scans.
Ability 5 Val 1 := Temporal
Ability 5 Val 2 := 4
Weapon Type := None

Name := Tachyon Sensors I
Description := Modulating tachyon sensor grid which can detect cloaked ships in a system.
Pic Num := 39
Tonnage Space Taken := 40
Tonnage Structure := 40
Cost Minerals := 1500
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 500
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Sensors
Family := 27
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Sensors
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Tech Area Req 2 := Physics
Tech Level Req 2 := 6
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Sensor Level
Ability 1 Descr := Allows EM Active scanning at level 2.
Ability 1 Val 1 := EM Active
Ability 1 Val 2 := 2
Weapon Type := None

Name := Tachyon Sensors II
Description := Modulating tachyon sensor grid which can detect cloaked ships in a system.
Pic Num := 39
Tonnage Space Taken := 40
Tonnage Structure := 40
Cost Minerals := 2000
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 800
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Sensors
Family := 27
Roman Numeral := 2
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Sensors
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Tech Area Req 2 := Physics
Tech Level Req 2 := 7
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Sensor Level
Ability 1 Descr := Allows EM Active scanning at level 3.
Ability 1 Val 1 := EM Active
Ability 1 Val 2 := 3
Weapon Type := None

Name := Tachyon Sensors III
Description := Modulating tachyon sensor grid which can detect cloaked ships in a system.
Pic Num := 39
Tonnage Space Taken := 40
Tonnage Structure := 40
Cost Minerals := 2500
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 1100
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base\Sat
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None
General Group := Sensors
Family := 27
Roman Numeral := 3
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 2
Tech Area Req 1 := Sensors
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Tech Area Req 2 := Physics
Tech Level Req 2 := 8
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Sensor Level
Ability 1 Descr := Allows EM Active scanning at level 4.
Ability 1 Val 1 := EM Active
Ability 1 Val 2 := 4
Weapon Type := None

Re: Technological arms races
 

The point here was not to nessesarily make the techs harder to reach, but to create a one-upmanship cycle.

Ha! Cloaked ships
HA Ha! tachyon sensors!
oh, yeah, i got level 4 now!
no prob, i'll just get level six
too late, I'm at ten!

specific scanner-blocking cloaks would be good, so we could split it up so that you have to research the techs individually, but each one area will give you general cloaking against all, but of a lower level.

Ie. research active-cloak V, get active cloaking lev 5 & general cloak lev 3

Re: Technological arms races
 

I agree Suicide_Junkie- More levels of cloak and sensors are needed. Right now cloaking becomes obsolete rather early in the game once all the sensors have been researched.

Re: Technological arms races
 

I think that just increasing the number of levels for both is the best way to go.

The more tech to get the better, really makes the game more fun.

Increasing the tech points required for the lower end stuff will just unbalance the game I feel.

Re: Technological arms races
 

Not only increasing the number of techs but also the possible combinations of cloaking/sensors. If you had a cloaking device for each type of sensor you would have what, 5X5 combos? Now any level 1 sensor reveals level 1 cloak.
I like more combinations. That way I have to ask myself did I research the right thing?

Re: Technological arms races
 

Cool Ideas..a lot like life http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif My hat's off to those of you that can and do hack into this it makes it a lot more enjoyable!
Mott

------------------
mottlee@gte.net

Re: Technological arms races
 

It's not hard to alter the game, as most of it is in a text file.

The game tells you if you stuffed a file up as it is loading, so it is pretty easy to change components, facilities and data like that.

Re: Technological arms races
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:
Not only increasing the number of techs but also the possible combinations of cloaking/sensors. If you had a cloaking device for each type of sensor you would have what, 5X5 combos? Now any level 1 sensor reveals level 1 cloak.
I like more combinations. That way I have to ask myself did I research the right thing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought about this to. But as far as I understand how cloaking works it might be difficult: If you have any sensor that has the level equal or above of a cloaking device in that technological area you will see the ship. So it's no use to have cloaking level 5 (cannot be detected) in let's say aktive EM alone. Any level 1 detector in any others scanning technology will reveal the ship.
However what you could do is to create cloaking device that are completely invisible (Level 5) for all but 1 or 2 scanners. Then to be sure to see all ships you had to combine differents scanners.
But again there might be two problems. First you would have to teach the AI to handle this: lot of work! Second what happens if you combine two of these cloaking component on one ship so that all scanners are blinded? You probably would get a really invisible ship without possible counter measure, what would imbalance the game.
The solution I would prefer (but this needs change in the hard coded area) are scanners with different range: Low sensitivity scanners that cover the whole system (as now in the game for all scanners), but they would miss the higher cloaking levels, and low range scanners with high performance, that would defeat even the best cloaking.

Re: Technological arms races
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I like the idea of a cloaking device that only stops, for example active.
Its abilities would prevent the maximum level of sensors of all types except 1, it is always a vulnerable to one type of sensor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wha?
Do you want cloaks that block only 1 sensor, or
do you want cloaks that can be seen by only one sensor?

--------------------------

Say we have 5 tech area threads, one for each sensor/cloak, and have 15 levels in each. Also, any cloak area will give you a general, all-encompassing cloak three levels less:

Then, there will be:
15*5 single-sensor-method cloaks
12*5 all-method cloaks (see note)
-------
75 single
60 300 omni-cloaks
------------
135 cloak components http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif

but only
15*5 = 75 sensor components

for a total of (135+75 - 6*5(cloak) + 60 (sensor)= 210 - 30 +60 = 240) more components in the file.

I could write a program to generate those components on the weekend.

Also, mines will have to have their cloaking boosted to 6,11,16 for higher tech mines, so they're still hard to detect, (and lvl 3 mines are impossible).

--------------------
Note: # of omni-cloaks is 12*5 because:
we have 12 levels. Multiply by 5, since each cloak area must give the cloak independently.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 29 March 2001).]

Re: Technological arms races
 

I was thinking of one cloak that blocks all but one sensor, per level. I guess that you could make an unlimited amout of combinations but just with the 5 types of sensor levels now you can get a lot of combos.

Re: Technological arms races
 

i wish research was open ended so you could have cloak level n and sensor level n where every level gives you n+1 at a research cost of 1.5x the Last level or something.

I guess I can file that away with the 'i wish we had miniturization' dream.

comon SEV! miniturization! open ended tech advancement! I can hope!

Re: Technological arms races
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
i wish research was open ended so you could have cloak level n and sensor level n where every level gives you n+1 at a research cost of 1.5x the Last level or something.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not too difficult to do: Just increase the maximum tech levels in that area (o.K. it's not unlimited but you may be satisfied with 20 levels), copy the components and increase the specified ability level and necessary tech level. The increase of research costs from level to level depends on your choice at the game setup.

Re: Technological arms races
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Q:
That is not too difficult to do: Just increase the maximum tech levels in that area (o.K. it's not unlimited but you may be satisfied with 20 levels), copy the components and increase the specified ability level and necessary tech level. The increase of research costs from level to level depends on your choice at the game setup.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

true, true. but the idea of the exercise is to have that same logic applied to every tech area so that one race might heavily persue weapons tech while another might go gonzo on shields, and have them never hit a limit where one can be deemed superior to the other by breaking them down on a spreadsheet, just who ever is winning the race. which is why we have the arms race afterall. sort of.

and THEN you could apply GEOMETRIC FUNCTIONS to the research / performance tables! armor would start to peak out at a certain point and you would get diminishing returns! you could have specialized research facilities that GENERATE POINTS AT A BETTER RATIO for SPECIFIC TECH AREAS! so you could have a missile research facilty and a total micromanagement NIGHTMARE! wow that would be great. dispite my micromanagement sarcasm and my excessive use of CAPS, i think this would be ideal.

man that would be awesome, im getting goosebumps thinking about it.

Re: Technological arms races
 

What is with some of you guys and mines?

Every thing else in the game needs components to do something, yet you are willing to give mines the top end cloaking (undetectable!) without have a component in it to do it!

It would make far more sense to load the mine with a cloaking component to allow it the same abilites as very thing else in the game.

Also why not have a small cloaking device for fighters, and why not all the armours as well.

Just my 1 cent worth, I am in Australia so your 2 cents are only worth that much! ;-)

Re: Technological arms races
 

In real-life mines are extremely hard to detect. In the game, rather than add some sort of game concept called 'really hard to detect', Malfador gave them the same abilities as cloaking devices put ramped up the level to one higher than any scanning tech available in the game.

So, personally, I think the idea of putting a cloaking device on a mine to be sorta superflous. :-)

Re: Technological arms races
 

The way I understand cloaking and sensing is the are 5 possible types of sensors, passive active gravatic psychic and temporal and 5 types of cloaking, same types but each cloaking level only stops level 1 of each type of sensor.
I like the idea of a cloaking device that only stops, for example active. Its abilities would prevent the maximum level of sensors of all types except 1, it is always a vulnerable to one type of sensor. You could have 5 levels of each cloak device and need to choose what type to put on your ship. Might be a pain but it makes sensor building and cloaking more challanging IMO.

Re: Technological arms races
 

I think you could have sort of a crude mine, like the first sea mines and then make them better and give them the cloaking ability. Allowing you to design the mines is even better! Give them no ability except what you put on it.

Re: Technological arms races
 

I think that I have this same discussion earlier about mines and cloaking.

Early mines where easier to detect than later mines. That's why we invented mine detectors and then developed pLastic mines to defeat them.

If we have everything component based then it then based on the tech you have against the tech I have and not on an ability of just having tech 1 mines.

Each to there own I supposed that's what is good about the game!

Re: Technological arms races
 

The idea about is not just about mines, I know this has been talked about a lot in other threads. You could just as easily create engines that faster between sectors and slower in combat.
There is already such a good base of components to work from that I think it would add a lot to the game if more specialized abilities were created. Then you would really have to think about how you designed your ships.