Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

The other thread was getting pretty muddled and confusing, particularly for newbies, so I am posting here what should stay the final version of the mods for some time. I have named them all 3.0, even though some of them do not have changes from previous versions (like scales). As an added bonus I have thrown in a fixed version of the Oceania mod for anyone interested.

EDIT: More fixes on Oceania mod.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Might want one more edit on Oceania - it puts pearlflag.tga in the mods folder, but looks for it in mods/oceania which doesn't seem to get created.

Edit : Never mind - it doesn't create the directory when you've told the zip program to ignore / not create sub directories. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

For ease of reference, perhaps you could rename the readme files so they were all version 3?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Well, the problem is that the readmes are a bit behind... the ones that are updated for 3.0 are marked so.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Just noticed there's a fine little bug with the nations mod (and consequently also with the complete mod): The indie witch, recruitable from magic sites, is supposed to have a 2% chance of healing troops. Problem is, you have used the sage ID#, so witch is unchanged and sages also have the healing ability. The correct number for the witch is 154, not 478.

The sage also does not seem to have any greater research bonus than they have as unmodded, so if you want them more effective, maybe bump it up by one? Of course, that makes the metal order wizards and others with a bonus less desirable unless their bonuses are also increased...

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

The sage is intended to be slightly less good than in the base game.

Good catch with the witch/sage typo, it will be fixed in a new version, probably in a few weeks.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

What does the Conceptual Complete Mod do? The description only mentions it modifies Pretenders but that couldn't be right, could it? There is already a Conceptual Pretender Mod for that.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Ah, you seem to have found another small bug. What it should say is that concept complete combines all the other concept mods into one.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

This includes Conceptual Nations Mods, big brother to the Nations mod you asked about in the other thread. They are not combatible.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Not so difficult to find. It was something of an eye-opener to find that my sages had a new command called "Heal troops" available in their command list, so it had to be a mod error. Nothing wrong with the sage entry, so Find->"healer", got the witch and then started looking at IDs.

Good thinking on reducing the sage a bit. they are rather too bloody ubiquitous and that slight nerf makes some national mages more viable as researchers even if a sage is available.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Actually, I have Turin to thank for that particular idea.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

The Void Lurker says it produces Astral pearls, but instead produces nature gems. Which is not *that* inappropriate, after all, it looks like a giant mushroom... but I'm guessing this is an error.


K.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Yeah, it is an error. The void lurker is pretty good anyway, I'm just going to remove gem production from it next version.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Another thing I noticed: The garnet amazon gryphon rider is not holy, but the riderless gryphon is.


K.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Ah, that's my mistake there. It needs to have #sacred added to its modding, because I forgot that #clearspec removes sacred status as well.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Actually it needs #holy not #sacred http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif .

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Here's some suggestions to disregard at your pleasure. Thank you, quantum and Turin; I like your iterations of the mods way better than the previous one's. I won't be commenting on the balance here, only aesthetics.

On formatting, I notice there are a lot of troops that don't have modifications done on them. I assume these are for ease of modding; however, a lot of commanders seem to be missing, at least from the national themes. (Niefel jarl, sidhe commanders...) Also, at least the readme for the item mod lacks information on the changes to hell sword aside from the cost. You don't really need a readme, in my opinion, since with proper formatting you might as well put all the information you want in the actual mod-file.

I'd suggest modding the slottage on the Thing That Should Not Be: at the moment it has a head-slot, but no head, and it loses it's drain life attacks when given a weapon. I assume the drain life comes from the tentacles, so this doesn't make sense. Thus I'd suggest removing the head slot, replacing the life drain attacks with the life drain tentacle some critters use and making it a permanent part of the Thing. Although this would make 'em really sweet SCs, it's not really a balance issue, since you see them only once in a blue moon anyway. There might be other inconsistencies with the slottage on lesser void summons, too.

For thematical reasons Caelum should have water magic on the seraphs, in my opinion. Increasing encumberance and possibly adding other mali like removing the body slot or a misc slot would be more thematical to my mind. See, no comment on balance even on this controversial issue, go me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The Ulm BF hero, the member of the third tier seems to have a random name. At least I got him with two different names recently. Neither was Hanif or Carsten (the first name being from the heading in the mod and the second from the description.) Can the name even be fixed?

The noise weapons aren't consistent. At least the wail of wailing lady and the demonic laughter of the Demon Jester are not AoE, even though it makes sense that noise affects everyone on an area. I would suggest renaming the attack of the Demon Jester to something else. With the lady it's harder: Maybe make the attack AoE but easily negated by MR?

The spell Second Sun costs 320 to cast, even though the mod-file has it at 350. Is this a hard-limit, then? Anyway, I assume this is a typo and there's one zero too much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The anthemant newt lacks a description.

There was something else too, but my [censored] computer went and crashed on me in the middle, so. Maybe it'll come back to me...

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Thanks for the input.

On the formatting problem I will happily pass the issue on to Edi who is handling that along with the readmes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The thing that should nor be named change sounds like it makes sense.

I have thought a lot about the Caelum issue, and I feel that really high encumbrance is less thematic than the younger seraphs not knowing water magic (think Man's crones).

Not sure what is up with the BF hero, I can't see any mod commands that would have messed that up, and if it is Illwinter's error I don't think it can be fixed.

I believe the wailing lady attack is AoE. As for the demonic laughter, just imagine you have to also be looking right at the demon for a damaging effect.

Second sun should be fixed next version, but good to know about the hard limit.

The newt had a description in some version, must have somehow got deleted.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

The name for the member of the third tier seems to be always random. In the unmodded testgame I made to get all the heroes, he shows up as Radan.
I guess illwinter wanted to make them like the knights of the stone or the master of the games,so you can get more of them, but then decided otherwise and forgot to fix his name.

I could alter the description though, changing "Carsten" to "This one".

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Hey, it would be really cool if you got more members of the third tier! It's not like you'd get too many in any case, what with the forced misfortune and all. The description change would be appropriate as things stand.

The Caelum thing: Seeing how ice is the very guiding element of the theme, and water is the path for ice, I'd think water magic rather essential for them. With spell casting encumberance at 12, as it's now, quickness isn't too good no matter what spell you spam. I never played Caelum, but the little bit of versatility that water gives looks rather important to enjoy using it. You could always remove the body slot to prevent switching to something more economical, as well as making them suspectible to lightning (is that possible?) to reduce their usefulness in wrathing purposes. (They need to carry lightning rods to balance themselves when flying or something http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) Not that wrathing is a problem with so restrictive a path requirement. Heck, I'd almost rather see them dropped to A1W1 than losing the water... I might be in a minority, though, so maybe I'll just shut up. (But c'mon a glorified illusionist!)

Why not change the weapon to demonic gaze, then? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif That would be more plausible to me. Or something obscure, like 'demonic juggle' or 'demonic trick.' Is there a special reason for staying with laughter?

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Well, I consider the ability to throw lightning bolts more important thematicly than a point of water. And they are not just glorified illusionists, flying mages are very rare and always useful. It is not like they can no longer use water magic, the high seraph is actually on average a better water mage than before due to the elemental random. I understand I can never fit everyone's opinion of thematicness, but if I hear more compliants along these same lines from others I will probably try to find another way.

The same goes for the demonic laughter, it seems the best way to me, but if other people have a problem with it, I may change it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Hmm, alright. I guess what gives me the image of ice being so essential is that almost every piece of description tells us how the Seraphs make the ice armament of the Caelian warriors, which in the game's context should be hard to do without water magic. (Surely the high seraphs can't be bothered with such a menial task!) I can't find a single reference to lightning or thunder, though, but maybe I'm just lax. Now that was just me being snide, sorry, I'll shut up on the matter. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Thanks for the work again, though; I like most other parts of the mods!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Well, you know, I actually agree with you. I had them 1w1a to start, but I got complaints that they couldn't toss lightning (orb lightning not enough I guess). So, as I said, no pleaseing everyone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

At the risk of making this thread as cluttered of the last one, here is a new version, with many fixes.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

I might have found a bug.

The winged shoes cost 5 air + 5 air (not just 10 air). Is that correct?

Pasha

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

It is sort of an experiment. You see, that is the only way of making them more expensive without needing more air magic to forge. However, if it turns out it is too confusing they will be put back to base.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

Ok. If I know it is intentional, then it is not confusing!

Thanks.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

I vote for base! : P

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

I recommended trying it, since it makes the shoes expensive to put on every swinging richard of a thug, without putting it totally out of the reach of many nations. (Pity poor Marignon, 1 strat movement mages, and they'd need to empower someone who got air as a random to make the boots if they were 10 air requiring skill 2.)

Same thing might be done with the life draining weapons - if you make them require death-3, it puts them more or less out of the reach of non-death nations. But if you make them death 2 + death 2, the expense goes up without shafting the nations that don't start strong in death magic.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

Since it ends up looking so weird, I would really rather keep use of the technique to a minimum. The goal with lifedrain weapons is that they are now nerfed enough (and other weapons boosted enough) that not having access to them is not a huge deal.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

In the nation mod, the Newt still ain't right. This time it's got the description in the mod-file, but with the #name command. So, in effect it's got a borked name and no description, the poor thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

Heh. Amusing typo on Abyssia's Blood of the Humans theme; the Guardians of the Pyre are "trained as priests or [/i]scared[/i] warriors." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Also, the name of 2nd commander from the left for the theme's "When the humanbred population w".

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

Would perfectly fit for hoard items too. Overall it is rather unfair that now lots of potentially top hoarding nations can't hoard anymore, like Mictlan, Caelum, Jotunheim etc..
And for clams the 10W 10S change is not enough also, 20W would be better and 25% more costs.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

I've finally started getting the nations readme in gear and have started to make that. No new versions for a while, please, as this will take some days (#%&! database course and SQL project and other schoolwork...).

I'll fix some of the typos and other screwups in the mod itself and reformat the unit modifications to follow the same order as in the Unit DB (gcost, rescost, hp, prot etc etc). Maybe I'm a sructured document freak, but that comes with the editorial territory and previous jobs in documentation...

There will also be an updated pretender readme for v4.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

Don't worry, I'm pretty happy with the current version, no major problems yet.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

i work currently together at a new version of "the tome" for dom2 and also will include a version for the conceptual balance mods 4.0. So far i have done the items and spells sections but i need more time nations section. Who is in charge of documentation of the Conceptual Balance Mod ? I would like to have the version of the tome reviewed before publishing because i had troubles with some of the mod commands.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

I'm the one you want for that. The nation readme is in the works, and I*ve gotten up to T'ien Chi with it. Will finish it sometime next week or maybe even this weekend. I'm updating and restructuring the Unit DB at the moment, and boy does it have some gross errors in places! Very few of those, fortunately, and they will be eliminated.

The UDB sidetrack was actually introduced by the CB Nations readme, because calculating the original def values etc was getting to be a pain in the arse. When I'm done, I'll just be able to glance at the UDB and immediately see the current active values as well as the base values.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

Nation mod Readme is ready, and I've updated that particular submod to version 4.1. It fixes numerous minor and a few pretty serious issues. Get your attachment here.

And my email is out of commission, something is up with the pop3 server of my ISP and I can't read any email. Can send as much as I like, but not read, not by downloading or through the web front end. So any comments etc should be posted in this thread for the time being.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

ok, here are the problems I noticed:

*It make spears better, which I do not want to do.

*It lists the old lava warrior price wrong.

*It lists some Ulm infantry as made cheaper when they were not, and leaves out the shield on one.

*It lists grand thoumaturg under Marignon.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

Check your mail, Quantum. You didn't get the one I sent you late yesterday evening because the Google mail server started *****ing something about illegal attachments, and I'm about ready to go down to their office with a fireaxe and start swinging. I just resent without attachments.

EDIT: Also resent the DB file, as a zip this time, Google seems to hate rar files.

I can understand that from one point of view, but from another, it is simply bizarre. Spears right now suck arse, the base damage they do is 2 less than a simple shortsword, and only half of what a broadsword does. It also lacks any defensive bonus, which the swords have (and I agree with, or it would be too good). This does not in any way, shape or form reflect the truth of spear vs sword.

My bad, that one. You can probably blame it on being tired when I did that.

Sorry about the mistake with those two infantries. My bad. I left the shield out of the morningstar black plate infantry because it didn't fit, but added an abbreviation now.

That's because I forgot to delete that line after I'd used it to align the modifications column so that it would be in the same place as the others.

Fixed these, new readme attached here. Still lacks the heroes. See the email for details of why.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

The problem is that all of the uber sacred troops use spears. Vans, daoine sidhe and white centaurs all use spears and those troops really don´t need a buff. And spear troops usually get built as arrow catchers, since they tend to be the cheapest. The mod should create more diversity not less.

That being said the damage difference isn´t that big when you factor strength in.
A normal strength 10 troop deals 13 damage with a spear and 15 with a shortsword. That´s actually pretty close.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

Hmm, I wasn't obviously thinking about the sacred troop angle. Well, the weapon modding is in the very beginning, so just snipping out the spears will make it good.

Gotta run now, though.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 4.0
 

Nothing to say other than thanks again for the work!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

I would like to use this mod, but I am somewhat confused and this is again a very long thread... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

• What is the newest version and where do I get it? I figured that the number is 4.1 and that it cannot be downloaded as a whole, but consists of 4.0 attached to a post here, nation-mod 4.1 attached to some post and an updated reame attached to some other post within this thread, right? Is there a place to download it as a whole?
• Readme's:Apart from the Nation-Mod Readme, where are the other readmes, or rather, where can I get the previous readme files if there are no uptodate readme's for 4.1 yet?
• What other mods are compatible with 4.1? I think I once read that Zen's Conceptual Blance could be used in conjuction with Saber's Recruitable Rebalance 7.51, but I somehow seem to recall that this new Conceptual Balance subsumes or presents an alternative to Saber's Recruitable Rebalance. Is this right/wrong?
• What about Turin's Worthy Hereos 1.2? Does anyone know whether the worthy hero mod is compatible? Is it still necessary to boost the heros or does CB v4.1 subsume a similiar hero mod?

I think it would be quite helpful if the first post of this thread would be updated to link to the most relevant post containing the proper attachment. Thanks!

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Sorry for the confusion, I really should have updated the first post. Turin's heroes mod is included in conceptual balance complete. Using cherry's mod with CB complete would likely cause problem as they rebalance many of the same things. The most recent CB complete mod (4.0) is attached to one of my posts on page two.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

In my more curmudgeonly moments, I have been known to wish that Dom3 will go back to being unmoddable, so that all this confusion will have to STOP! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Thanks for the quick reply and the fix! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

PS: Does this include Turin 1.1 or 1.2?

EDIT: Hmm, so essentially you are saying that what I wrote before was right, i.e. that 4.1 is a mixture of 3 different attachments to posts in this thread, right? Page 2 doesnt help me, as with my settings there is no page 2 yet, but I have already downloaded and sortet all attachments within this thread.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

it´s a somewhat fixed version of 1.2. I had forgotten to mod pythiums serpent cult hierogallus hero.

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

I am again confused: The complete mod attached to earlier posts is still 4.0, while Edi writes that the nation mod suffers some serious mistakes which is why he attaches nation mod 4.1, however, there is no complete 4.1 around, is there? Can I just merge the files myself? My players are actually already getting confused because of these changes and resistance against modding is building up... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

...so can anyone link the definitive complete mod to use, please?

...what are those 'serious' mistakes in 4.0? Are they really serious? I'd rather have my players handle a single file instead of 5 if those 'serious' issues are not so serious...

Re: Conceptual Balance Mods - Version 3.0
 

Yes, it is too bad Edi released a half-a-version nation mod, I think it really increases confusion.

As I said in my last post, the most current complete mod is attached to one of my posts on page two. I do not believe there are any major issues with it, or even with the version before it (3.0). The reason I have not changed the first post to complete 4.0 is that I am about to release the next major version, possibly even some time today. With luck, this may be the final version, though something tells me otherwise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

EDIT: Oh, and I'm intimately familiar with the 'resistance against modding' phenomenon. A couple mods have issues or are hard to find the right version and suddenly all of modding is terrible mistake. I find the best remedy is a quick game or two whacking them over the head with base game imbalances. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif