Map Maker?
 

There is already a sub-forum titled Mods and Scenarios (with no posts), but I just wanted to ask to make sure that at some point toolsets will be released to the public to allow us to create new campaigns or skirmish maps (for online or offline play)?

Is there a general timeframe for when you think you might release these tools to the public?

Thanks! (Demo is awesome as I knew it would be!)

Re: Map Maker?
 

The subforums are default in our setup. There are some capabilities to mod the game, however a map editor wasn't feasible with the release unfortunately.

Re: Map Maker?
 

Does that mean no map editor ever? Or depends on sales of the game? Or it will definitely be released at some point?

Re: Map Maker?
 

That's really up to the developer. There are complications because of the way the game is architected.

Re: Map Maker?
 

Wellllll since TinyHero.com now links to this forum page, where else can we ask the developers if/when this might be implemented?

This is an important issue for me; I could easily see myself losing interest with only a set number of maps (and 10 is a small number at that) to play on.

Re: Map Maker?
 

Hi there. I'm the developer, and I definitely check in here. =)

We have no plans to add in a map editor, although this could change over time based on demand. Our plan is that when we eventually release the sequel, it will be fully modable.

We will be adding more multi-player maps in future patches. Land of Legends also has a 32-mission campaign with two levels of difficulty.

-Hiro_Antagonist

Re: Map Maker?
 

Too bad there isn't going to be a map editor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Seems like an odd decision to allow users to 'mod' unit graphics and sound, a task not many would do, and not allow the user to make new maps for online play, something I think many users would do.

It's cool that new maps will be patched in later I guess.

Re: Map Maker?
 

I agree with you. A map maker is a must for this game. Although the maps that we have now is good and the game seems to promise a good selection of maps once you can buy it. However, a 15 by 15 map just seems a little small to me and I would love to be able to create and play a larger map or a connected map (like pac-man). It would add a little extra flavor to the game and keep people interested. Also more races would be cool or even better yet the ability to create and submit races in to the game.

Re: Map Maker?
 

Well, it wasn't as much a conscious decision not to allow map-making, as it was a limitation of our budget.

Letting people play their own maps, and even their own full *mods* online was originally part of the design, but as time wore on, it became clear we just couldn't afford it for this version of the game.

But I feel strongly that what is there in the retail version of Land of Legends is good, and will keep our players busy for a very long time. Online play especially will keep advanced players challenged and entertained for many, many hours.

As for the graphics/sound modding, that came basically 'for free' in development, so we decided to offer those modding features was better than nothing.

That said, we are going to be expanding the functionality of LOL through patches. We will most likely not be able to offer full moddability, nor the ability to play custom maps online, but we are looking at allowing you to play custom maps in hotseat/AI skirmish mode, and also via play-by-email. That will hopefully come in our second patch, but no garauntees. We're also toying with the idea of letting players create their own single-player campaigns, with anywhere from 1-36 missions each.

Speaking of patches, we'll also be adding a lot of functionality with our first patch. You will be able to save and load skirmish/hotseat games and campaign missions, and as such, play-by-email games will be possible by emailing your hotseat save files back and forth. We've also added some new animations, a show-grid option, tons of keyboard shortcuts, and have made some time-consuming animations a bit faster. The first patch with these features should be available by the time the game is released on Sept 21.

Our plan at this time is to offer more (hopefully full) modability in LOL 2, but that won't be due out for quite some time.

But like I said, in the meantime I stand behind the fact the game is pretty darn fun, and has lots of content as it is! =)

-Hiro_Antagonist

Re: Map Maker?
 

The 15x15 maps were chosen to keep games fast and to prevent players from spending time moving units that are never in any threat. In fact, supporting bigger maps, complete with the clickable mini-map in the sidebar, was the first 'complete' feature in the game. But after playtesting, I realized that games were too slow, action was too spread out, and things generally took too long. Playtesting showed that 15x15 maps accomplished my design goal of "trimming off all the fat" and I think that LOL is a much better game as a result.

Unfortunately there won't be any more races added to Land of Legends, but the 8 races that are there are very diverse, and 8 is already one of the largest number of vastly diverse races in any game on the market. (Though Dominions II beats us by a large margin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

-Hiro_Antagonist

Re: Map Maker?
 

<font color="red">Moderated by Andre</font>

It seems like you are willing to try and do what we are asking. That is cool enough for me. The eight races are very easy to play and can be used in incredible complex fashion. Couple with the fact that the patches you are making also comes with more maps makes it re-playable for many hours to come. All I can say is keep the patches coming and when is LOL 2 coming out?

Re: Map Maker?
 

Way in the future. LOL itself hasn't even come out yet. =)

Our tentative plan is to work on a new game (based in the Land of Legends world) as our next game, and then possibly/probably implement LOL2 after that. But things could very well change...

-Hiro_Antagonist

Re: Map Maker?
 

The missing of a map maker hits this game very hard! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
And some more units (2 to 4) per race would be nice too.
Some possibilities to build town upgrades would be interesting also. (2 town upgrades per town out of 6 or 8 choices)

Re: Map Maker?
 

I've never used the map makers in any games I've played. I agree that it would have been a waste of development time that was better spend enhancing the AI or the internet play.

I find it extremely unlikely that someone would not buy the game on this basis.

Re: Map Maker?
 

Shrugs...I know at least 1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

I'm a big Advance Wars fan, and for me most of the fun is creating and playing on new maps I and my friends create. Maybe I'm spoiled.

There's a free web version of Advance Wars at http://www.amarriner.com/awbw/ that lets you build maps for internet play if anyone is interested.

Re: Map Maker?
 

We do recognize that a map-maker is something that some players want, and we know you're not alone. And while we want to give players everything they could possibly want, we just haven't had the budget or time to implement everything, and we have to take into account how many players will *really* use the feature compared to how much it will cost us to implement.

We *are* still looking at the idea of letting people make their own maps, but if we implement that feature, players would most likely have to make their maps the same way we did -- by editing XML files by hand. This isn't as bad as it would seem. My own process for making maps was to draw them on graph paper or in Paint Shop Pro, and then copy/edit the template map file to fill in the new terrain. That process typically took about 10-15 minutes for each map once the map was designed. If we did implement this feature, it wouldn't surprise me at all if someone made a tool to help with this process, but anyone can roll up their sleeves and edit XML with little hassle.

Anyway, there are all sorts of other complications that come from allowing user-made maps that wouldn't be obvious to players. So we're looking at the problem closely to see if there's any cost-efficient way we can develop it.

-Hiro_Antagonist

Re: Map Maker?
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I can finally play the map I made http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Please find a way.

Re: Map Maker?
 

With a map maker the game would be just be that much better. However, the game itself is worth buying and playing without it. Advance Wars is different/better/worst than LOL in many aspects. But LOL does have a new spin on this type of game play. I do look forward to a better AI in future patches and/or versions.

Re: Map Maker?
 

A map maker for this game is a topic I've been thinking about quite a bit lately. I looked, and it seems everything is rolled up into a WAD file. I'm guessing that is where the complications lie. If I could just see how the XML files were structured I would love to take a shot at creating a browser-based utility that outputs an XML file.

If Hiro or anybody wants to contact me about this, please don't hesitate to shoot an e-mail to ben@nullpixels.com.

Re: Map Maker?
 

well, the data files are basically XML. The problem has basically nothing to do w/ the wad files.

The problems stem from things like UI, data integrity, etc. There are many, many subtle issues that make it a lot more difficult than it may seem from the outside. This is why we had to cut this feature from the original release, despite how much we wanted to offer it.

Yes, these issues are surmountable, but they will take a large amount of development effort that we just can't afford. We're hoping that LOL 2 (quite a ways off) will allow for modability, but we'll have to see. And we're hoping that we can find an affordable way to patch a custom map feature into LOL 1. But when I'm forced to decide between catering to the vast majority of users by having a better core game or building in modability for the minority of users that will take advantage of that at the expense of having a better core game, I'm always going to opt for having a better core game... =)

-Hiro_Antagonist

Re: Map Maker?
 

The problem is not a map maker as Hiro said it's getting the game to accept the custom maps. As it stands if one user had a custom map somehow and that person started an online game with someone that didn't have the map it crashes the game because it doesn't understand what to do. Coding the brains into the game so it gets what is going on is a huge time consuming effort. Instead of spending time working on that feature(which would be nice btw) he feels that the main game needs the attention.

Now in the future I bet this will change once the majority of the problems in the main game are smoothed out. He wants people to get a quality gaming experience with the features that were shown when they purchased the game. So everyone needs to settle down a bit.

Sargus I like you idea of players submitting a design to Hiro for possible use in the next patch. I know I would love to get the map I made in there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Maybe I could help out here. If its ok with Hiro I could get the designs from you guys and make the maps and then give them to Hiro since I already understand how the maps are made from my beta testing. Though I can think of a few good reasons why this wouldn't be a good idea, so no one get your hopes up. What do ya think Hiro?

Edit: Gah someone went and deleted posts from the thread http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif some of the stuff I said might not make sense now, who knows.

Re: Map Maker?
 

Yeah, sorry about deleting SargusBane's post, but it was very out of line.

He's a real-life friend of Andre's. He was involved a bit in pre-shrapnel beta testing, and is quite good at the game. He discovered an early exploit (the unbeatable 'Runner Horde' strategy), that has since been fixed. My understanding is that he's quite passionate about the game.

I'm not sure why he saw fit to attack me publicly like that when he could have just sent me an email. I saw no new information in that post other than attacks calling me stupid and other things. When it comes down to it, his post was unacceptable for *anyone* to have posted, especially a 'friend'.

SargusBane: Let it lie. If you have something to say, please email me directly. I am receptive to all feedback, but I'm not Superman, nor do I have an endless amount of time to implement every feature. I have to pick and choose very carefully, based on both business and technology factors. I want map editing in the game as much as everyone, trust me on that. I was sad when I had to cut it before LOL shipped, and things are no different now. It was cut for a complicated set of reasons, which I've been very open and honest about here.

CombatWombat: Sure, I'd love to take a look at any map ideas/designs you or anyone else may have. I'm going to try to add in a couple of new maps for each patch we release, and it would be great if some of those came from the community.

Fair warning though: Those maps may not make it into the game, or may be altered when added. I had to nix most of my own map designs, because during playtesting I would learn that they just don't work for a variety of reasons. But I promise I'll look over every single submission, even if I don't have time to reply to them all.

FWIW, I recommend taking a screenshot of the game, and then copy/pasting the terrain squares around to make the map look like how you want. That's probably the easiest way for you guys to do it and see what it would look like. If it seems promising, I'll convert it to XML and playtest it, and maybe include it in a patch!

You guys can send maps to me directly at scott-at-tinyhero-dot-com.

-Hiro_Antagonist

Re: Map Maker?
 

Hiro, Sent you the 1 1/2 maps I managed to complete http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif