good races for/against newbies.
 

Hey there. I'm going to be playing in a highly competitive, yet low-skill dom2 game soon. I really, really want to win. =)

I think I've got a good shot, but I'm working hard to study up, and find the right race.

The race I enjoy playing most is Jotunheim with the Neifelheim option.

But then again, I also liked Ulm -- and a search of the forums showed me that they're generally not well-regarded for advanced play.

So my questions are:
1) Are there any races and/or playing styles that will tend to beat down novice-to-intermediate players? I feel like solid military/brute-force strategies would work well, and this is where my strengths lie, but I'm open to adapting.

2) I'm really familiar with Jotunheim, and tend to use a heavily expansionistic, pure military, castle-building strategy, mostly forgoing magic (other than some construction.) My biggest enemy in the upcoming game is savvy enough to counter illwinter, so I no longer want to invest the resources in it... Is this a decent approach, or is the race or strategy a bad idea for some reason?

And for what it's worth, I expect my toughest enemy to be using some sort of witty magic-based approach. In our last two games, that's been his general approach, and I wouldn't mind having a strategy/setup that could deal w/ that kind of thing easily.

Any help would be appreciated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

-Hiro_Antagonoist

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

If you are happy with that Jotunheim style, I´d use a e9n9 earth mother. Niefel giants with that bless are hard to counter if you aren´t familiar with the magic system.

But unmodded dominions is really all about magic, so the best counter would be a witty magic approach yourself.

Play Caelum if you want a really powerful race.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Your strategy also has to take into account how large the map is. Pure armies will work well on a small map, especially if research is set to hard or very hard.

I've so far taken part in two multislayer games, and my experiences varied quite a bit.

One of them was a Faerun game where I picked Vanheim, and due to the mistakes and crappy design decisions on the early versions of that map which really screwed Vanheim over, I got curbstomped.

The other one was a Cradle game with Zen's version of that map where I played Abysia, and I got pretty far with that, into the final three. Atlantis finally stomped that game, largely uncontested becase the Man player who was the other claimant to the throne just abandoned it.

Abysia and Man are both solid options, depending on what kind of play style you use. Abysia and Ulm both suit me well, as does Vanheim. I'd stay away from some of the trickier ones like Pangaea and T'ien Chi until you get more familiar with the game.

I don't like the unmodded game much anymore, because magic plays such a completely dominant part in it, and certain spell combos are basically the only game in town. I much prefer the CB series of mods in its present incarnation.

Edi

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Edi,

WRT Faerun what do you think would be the best solution to the problem of not being able to get your dwarves off of the island:

1) put the capital on the mainland
2) give the dwarves sailing
3) make a connection between the islands and the land ( even if it is not super logical )

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

I don't know if there are any nations that are particulary deadly against beginners in the hands of the computers.

I think that Abysia, Ulm and Jotenheim are good beginer nations. Sure "waah Ulm is teh sux" but that only aplies when fighting against humans.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Umm, you obviously have not gone and donwloaded the updated map files from Arryn's site, have you? I fixed that problem months ago by adding land bridges through Snowdon to the Nelanther Isles to Tethry Peninsula, and an Alaron-Mintarn-Waterdeep and Alaron-Mintarn-Baldur's Gate (or was it Orlumbor?) connection. These would represent major ports of call and a smuggling route, and neatly solves the problem.

So off you go and download them and you'll be all set. I also hardcoded the populations for Alaron, Gwynneth and Norland so that there are a few large provinces so lack of income won't strangle Vanheim right at the start.

Edi

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Yeah, Abysia is easy and simple for a non-expert player to roll along with. The troops are solid, and simply by researching conjuration 3 (phoenix power) followed by evocation to 5 (falling fires), the mages & troops have incredible synergism : the troops are immune to fire, while the mages can pretty much all act as fire-based artillery without harming the troops at all.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Hmmm. I'd go with a W9N9 Son of Niefel, since most battles do not last long enough for the reinvigoration of the earth blessing to matter to troops (and Jotunheim has no sacred mages except the Neifel Jarl who's really a combat dude and is super expensive), and I'd take +4 def and double attacks over +4 prot any day.

I think this would be quite good if you're not bothered too much about magic, since the Son is a pretty decent fighter himself (and teamed with a Neifel Jarl prophet you have a pair of good army leaders). In fact, one of my opponents is playing exactly this setup in our current game.

It all depends *which* sneaky magic strategy your toughest opponent has gone for. I guess you'll find out ....

CC

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

You don´t get double attacks with the quickness blessing, it´s only 1,5 attacks. A dual9 son of niefel is 50 points more expensive.
Fatigue matters greatly for troops. If the battle lasts only 5 rounds, those niefels will have accumulated 20 fatigue, which means they get -2 to attack/defense and opponents have a chance to deal armorpiercing attacks.
And protection is far more important for niefels than defense. the ~ 20 protection/no fatigue they get with e9 means that they are practically immune to normal troops.

Just try both blessings and see which fares better vs lvl 7 indies.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Wow - I didn't know that fatigue lowered defence! I mean I did, but I thought it had to be over 50 or something. That makes earth blessing *much* better than I thought (oddly leaving air blessing as the only really crappy one).

I've seen posted elsewhere on this board that W9 blessing gets you only 50% extra tactical move but does in fact get you double attacks, not 3/2. I don't know how to test that though.

Anyway, thanks for the heads-up about fatigue. Blimey ...

CC

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Air 9 is not terribly useful, but lower blesses have there uses. Death's is almost as weak as air, and blood is on average the worst.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Ooh I so disagree! +2 str is awesome for any mass-produced troops. Can change a miss into a hit and a hit into a kill. I've never used Blood 9, but I presume the Blood Vengeance works like the spell, ie any unit attacking the blessed unit has to make an MR check or take its own damage! That should be handy too. No, I like blood blessing on the whole.

I also like death blessing - ok so the fear effect has small radius, but its combined effect from lots of blessed troops results in *much* earlier routs than you get otherwise. Ok so it's not useful vs. mindless or undead, but then what's new. I can at least agree with you about the D9 Death Curse blessing, that really doesn't strike me as worth the cost (though I guess it might work for undead Ermor themes with masses of free sacred units - I've never tried).

By contrast the 20% air shield of A4 is imho the least useful of the level 4 blessings (now I'm told how important reinvigoration is). I'd much rather have Fear (-3) on all my units.

Anyway, back to Turin ... I checked some battles and I can't see any penalty to def (or anything else), even on an SC with over 70 fatigue after buffing. Are you sure there are penalties? Is there a table somewhere? There's nothing in the manual addenda. Is it supposed to be visible on the unit stats in combat? Is it just def which is reduced? Please tell me more ...

CC

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

+2 strength is nice, but so is the air shield, it can save you a ton of casualties for low armour sacreds (or heavies vs. crossbows). Really, none of the level 4+ blesses suck, but there is wide variation in the power of level nines. And blood does not have the blood vengeance effect, it has the death curse you are associating with death. Death has a rarely useful level 9 effect that gives you a weak souless warrior when a a sacred unit dies.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Well I guesss it´s not in the manual addenda, because it´s in the manual on page 15. It lowers defense by 1 for every ten points and attack by one for every 20 points though, so it´s a bit less important for niefel giants.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Doh! Thanks Turin - it's not shown in the actual battles though, which is why I missed it. That probably makes E4 more useful than W4 for most troops.

QM - my mistake (again) - you're right that I got D9 and B9 confused. Neither is much use then, though B4 remains one of my favourites. I don't see how A4 protects many of your flagellants or other weak sacreds - 80% of the arrows still get though and mow them down ...

CC

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

IMHO it's just N9 that matters for Niefels, you can rather easily gives the Jarls reinvigoration and quickness through items (making Jarls thugs/SC is THE way to go with Niefelheim).
Also Son of Niefel is also better than GM (who usually kills herself by trample fatigue).
Lastly I don't think Niefelheim is easy to play effectively in MP : super expensive troops, uber-crappy research until you get Sages...

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Well, reinvigoration maybe, but quickness items are Construction 6, and as you say, research is poor. If you're bothering with an N9 bless it's probably worth taking W9 or E9 as well - E9 might be slightly more useful (though I'm not yet convinced of that) but W9 fits better with the theme's mages and gem income. W9N9 and casting Relief on your troops is probably how I'd try it.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Doesn't the Neifel Jarl have water magic? That would be the early approach to quickness.

If you're using them as SC's you won't want to bring relief casters along, so E9 might be better.

Of course the real problem is with a double bless, your scales will be so bad you won't be able to afford any Neifel Jarls anyway.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Hand them Wraith swords and fatique problems are solved unless you're facing mass undead or constructs. And with a wrath crown or some empowerment they can also cast soul vortex. Not sure if it's worth the death gems though.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Yes the NJ has water magic, but can only cast quickness on himself, at least until Alteration 8. The W9 blessing gives all his accompanying troops quickness and +4 def.

Why not bring a Gygja along to cast relief? I don't understand why the role of the Jarl as an SC makes a difference to that. Unless you're assuming that SC Jarls would have no troops with them. Then yes, you just give them reinvig items. And no need for W9 bless I guess - but then level 9 blessings are pretty pointless on tiny numbers of SCs, they're more useful on large numbers of cheaper units (in this case Woodsmen). Plus you need units for sieges.

Ho hum.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Taking on armies by themselves is pretty much the definition of an SC. If you bring an army, you have to make the army tough enough not to route before the SC kills everything or the SC will retreat even if they're winning. If the army is that tough, they'd probably win without the SC.

Unequipped NJs aren't quite in that class, but even with a little gear they're real close. The N9 bless helps mostly by keeping afflictions away.

Last time I tried Neifelheim, I think I started with a Gode and an army of Woodsmen and separately a NJ and my W9N9 Son of Neifel. With the blessing on the NJ and a few buffs, the two of them could handle most 9 str independents. (Quickness, Breath of Winter, Personal Regeneration, maybe something else I'm forgetting.)

Sieges and major battles against a nation's main forces, you may want more. Of course, by that time you should have enough construction and gems to outfit the SC properly.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Surely BoW does not stack with the NJ's intrinsic cold effect?

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

It either stack with or replaces, I forget which. The spell is better though. Larger area at least.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

It does stack. Natural chill does fatigue damage only, BoW is actual damge. And back to the blesses, indeed it would only save 20% of the flags, but in low armour cases like that, I would rather have that then the +2 stregth. And anyway, for magic reasons I usually consider it a bit of a waste to pur blood on my pretender.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

For a race with recruitable blood mages I'd be inclined to agree with you, but B4 on a pretender can be a great kick-start for a non-blood nation like Caelum or Arco.

I think I'd still rather have +2 strength on my weak sacreds (like flags or jaguar warriors) than 20% air shield, but I've not done extensive comparisons. It's reasonably easy to deal with archers in other ways, providing your scouting is good enough to anticipate meeting them. On bigger sacreds (vans, jotuns etc.) I'd definitely take the +2 str. I'm still not convinced about reinvigoration though - I'm currently playing as Vanheim and my vans/valks are not getting fatigue noticeably over 10 (ie. most fights last only 3-4 rounds).

Anyway, I wonder what the OP made of all this - did you stick with Neifelheim in the end, and if so with what pretender setup?

CC

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

It is a kick start, but only by around 10 turns. Unless I'm extremely unlucky, I can usually have a b3 mage by turn 30-40 for any nation, just working with blood randoms. And blood hunting with your pretender is usually a waste unless you happen to be using a blood fountain.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

I wouldn't consider myself a particularly advanced player of MP, but isn't 10 turns quite a long head start? I mean, that could make the difference between getting a fair share of the ice/arch devils and getting none of them - all for a turn or two's blood hunting with your pretender (which can then of course do research or forging or fighting or whatever).

I mean, I wouldn't want to over-egg the idea, but on something like a VQ it costs only 16 points to get to B4, and even on a crone or other 10-point-path chassis it costs only 82 points. That's not much to get all your sacreds +2 str *and* a 10-turn quicker start to your blood economy. I guess how useful that it depends on how quickly everyone else's blood economy works - that's what's so great about this game, everything depends on everything else.

CC

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

I never said it is never a good option, only that in general, 4a on your pretender is more useful. Great early buff spells, and so much harder to break into air magic than blood magic.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Well, I haven't decided yet. The game doesn't actually start for another month or so (yeah, that's a while,) but there's a big prize on the line so I'm 'studying' hard-core.

From my dealings against the AI, I still seem to be doing better with Jotun/Neifel than any other race, but I think they might expect that from me since I've played them in the past. So I might just pick another arce to maintain anonyminity as a player (it's an anonymous game) so that I can avoid peoples' attention. Thankfully, I still have a while to consider your guys' feedback and experiment/practice on my own.

As I posted in another thread, I tend to have problems against 5 Difficult AI's on Desert Eye after about turn 20-25 or so. (Before that, I'm usually at or very close to top player according to stats graphs.) Does that speak poorly of my skill?

-Hiro_Antagonist

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

Ermor Ashen Empire has some nice advantages for novices. You don't have to worry about buying troops; you get them for free. In fact, you do very little with money besides constructing buildings. You can take very bad scales (Turmoil 3, Sloth 3, Cold 3, Death 3) and get design points to buy up a lot of magic on your Pretender and high dominion. Other nations have difficulty invading your dominion because their troops starve.

With Ermor AE, the two challenges are research and diversifying your troops. Your mages have to be summoned, and your gem income won't grow as quickly as others' gold income. You can forge Skull Mentors to help your researchers. Your Pretender should start searching for gems early as your empire expands.

Diversification is an issue because having armies with only undead is a weakness. Priests can destroy large numbers of undead, and there are many anti-undead spells and items. Also, most of the AE undead are mindless, so mages with Astral mind attack spells ignore them and target the commanders. Ivy Kings can summon Vine Ogres cheaply, and some of the Elemental Queens and Kings can summon elementals for free. For the parts of your empire that have adequate supply to support some living troops, Call of the Wild summons a Werewolf and wolves. The Werewolf can summon more wolves for free.

One thing about playing Ermor AE (or Shadow Gate) is that it is very different from playing any living nation. There are fewer techniques that you can transfer from Ermor to another nation. However, since you can afford to put a lot of magic on your Pretender, you will get to play around with most, if not all, of the available spells and items in Dom 2.

Re: good races for/against newbies.
 

I disagree...Ermor AE is the sure way to get all other players gang up against you, as you ruin their lands through an awful and strong dominions, and is not easy at all to play in a competitive environment... And in an anonymous game you'll get no allies !
At start you're mostly dependent on your pretender, then you get a false sense of power with your hordes of crappy undead, that any skillful player will slaughter quite easily.
For a player used to playing Jotun it's a fully different challenge. Personnally I find Niefel rather difficult to play, given that you will always have small number of very expensive troops, and I prefer Utgard theme, that is quite versatile and has those great Seithkonas and Nornas.