Retreat Option
 

I don't know about anyone else, but I would really like to see a retreat option for the tactical combat as it was in SE3, except for one small change......Interdictors.


I think it would add a whole new element of strategy to the game if there was an interdictor component which prevented ships from retreating from combat (much like Interdictor Cruisers from Star Wars). It could be a component needing both Engines 10 and some level of Stellar Manipulation, and would be about the same size and cost of a warp point opener.

Reguards

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Admiral Grover
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"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexeplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened."
- Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams

Re: Retreat Option
 

I think the combat needs the retreat option too...and adding the interdictor would add some more pesazz to combat as well!

Re: Retreat Option
 

It would be real cool if you could go through the warp point, if combat took place at one.

Re: Retreat Option
 

I have been asking for a retreat option from the beginning. My own idea is that you can retreat only if you have remaining movement points in the main starmap. And only in the opposite direction as some would use this option to avoid wormhole blockade fleets and attack home planets etc. It should be easy to do, even on someone elses turn(ie, auto retreat movement), and say a 1 turn delay during tac combat for parting shots at the retreating enemy.

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"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: Retreat Option
 

I suspect that the simplest option would be to just reduce the length of a combat round to say 20 turns. Sides that want to run can do so immediately from the start and if they are not at a speed disadvantage, they should only sustain a few rounds of fire in the corner.
The combat length setting is in the Settings.txt file by the way.

I have tried this (not in current patch though) and it does really encourage you to use fast ships - fleets tend to end up with more battlecruisers than dreadnoughts as a result.

Interception becomes interesting as you want to engage the enemy with a couple of movement points spare so that you can initiate several combats in the same square in order to damage enemy ships to the point that you can catch them in subsequent combats.

Give it a try and see what you think....

Re: Retreat Option
 

How about a wrap-around map? Then one-on-one, you can try to outrun the enemy. But if the're serious, they can get a fleet and trap you somewhere by splitting up the fleet.

Would need combat AI work, though http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Retreat Option
 

If the battle map was unlimited in size or like SJ proposed then if you wanted to retreat/withdraw then you could, but why would you want to retreat?
How would the retreat rules work in tactical combat?

Re: Retreat Option
 

The thought of the technobabble needed to justify the physics of space-time that a wrap-around tactical or strategic combat map would imply makes my head spin.

OTOH, some kind of wrap-around on the galactic map would be easier to justify. There isn't any reason that the map of warp connections needs to correspond to the locations of stars in physical space.

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Cap'n Q

Re: Retreat Option
 

It would be nice if you could set a 'group move' for multiple ships/fleets in different sectors so they all arrive at the same target sector simultaneously from different directions. Then I might not mind the retreat option being added in.

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

I don't know if this is possible in simultaneous games since I don't play that type of game.

Can you now initiate attacks while cloaked? If so, it would also be nice if your start point was much closer than it normally is. Like with in ten squares.

Re: Retreat Option
 

I personally don't miss the retreat option. I always found it annoying when I went into combat and the opposition had one more combat movement point than me. I would have to break up the fleet, surround the ship in the system map, then send in a kill ship...

If people don't want their colonizers to be killed, why don't you send an escort (role, not ship) along with it every time you send one outside your "control area".

Always: Scout, Secure, Colonize, Reinforce, Build, Scout, Secure... on and on.


To initiate attacks while cloaked, you need to make sure the victim can see you. So, decloak and recloak when you're finished (or you could make a satellite with sensors, deploy it in system, give it to the victim, then attack... might want to destroy the satellite afterwards http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

Re: Retreat Option
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will:
To initiate attacks while cloaked, you need to make sure the victim can see you. So, decloak and recloak when you're finished (or you could make a satellite with sensors, deploy it in system, give it to the victim, then attack... might want to destroy the satellite afterwards http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif ).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that's how I usually attack with cloaked ships now. What I was getting at was to be able to simply go to the same sector as the target, click the attack button and have combat initiate. As in you just decloaked within firing range of an enemy. Using the usual method, the game treats it as if you were making an attack with an uncloaked vessel and you are too far apart.

Re: Retreat Option
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will:
I personally don't miss the retreat option. I always found it annoying when I went into combat and the opposition had one more combat movement point than me. I would have to break up the fleet, surround the ship in the system map, then send in a kill ship...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do agree there, but with my own fleets, if i am attacking, and I happen to be taking a lot of losses, then it would be nice to pull back and rebuild.

Regards

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Admiral Grover
-------------------
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarrely inexeplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened."
- Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams

Re: Retreat Option
 

What you need is to remove the engine limitations, and use "engines per move" instead. That way, you could make an LC with 8 movement, 1 shield & a few "ExtendedRange Tractor Beams"

The LC zooms out, and start dragging the enemies back to the fleet to be killed.

IMO, a tractor beam should still work on ships larger than you, with a reduction in damage (pull) of roughly one point per hull size.

I always mod "ER Tractor Beams" with range upto 8, and damage of 1, reload 1 or 2. Use a lot, since you're gonna be inaccurate.
Still, for ships with equal movement, you can slowly drag 'em in, and every hit counts.

Re: Retreat Option
 

I like the unlimited tactical map size the best. That way if you are faster you can get away if not tough luck.
If the map is able to be made an unlimited size then I think you should either start closer together or lengthen the combat phase to allow the faster ships to actually catch up to the slower ships.

Re: Retreat Option
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
What you need is to remove the engine limitations, and use "engines per move" instead. That way, you could make an LC with 8 movement, 1 shield & a few "ExtendedRange Tractor Beams"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I do use "Engines per Move", but it has one SERIOUS drawback... When the AI reads the lines "Mininum Speed & Desired Speed" in the AI_Design_Creation.txt file, it isn't actually looking at SPEED, but engines. Thus you must create seperate profiles for EACH hull size, which is needed for EACH race.... that's a lot of tinkering with the AI files, I'm still sorting out problems with it (In my mod you need one Engine per Move for every 33.33 tons of ship weigt (although I rounded down for Escorts)... but gave Engine Double movement, thus regardless of the Tonnage of ship... you must devote the same % of space to Engines to get the same movement.

I wrote MM to try to get them to alter the "Speed" lines in AI_Design_creation.txt to actually mean speed NOT engines (and that if changed, the "bonous movement" should not be figured into the calculation, it should just modify the desired speed.



[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 01 April 2001).]

Re: Retreat Option
 

Actually an idea just occured to me! Why not allow a map with no borders, and simply increase the effectiveness of TRACTOR BEAMS. Also the fleets should deffinately start closer to make interception more possible.

As for the cloaking, I would love to see cloaked ships start off CLOSE to the enemy (like with worm holes), and get one free round (like Birth of the Federation).

Just my thoughts

Re: Retreat Option
 

SE3 had this in it wouldn't be EZ to put one in?

Re: Retreat Option
 

I think an unlimited / much larger tactical map would be best. I hate the idea that a ship can get stuck in a corner. How many corners do you know of in deep space? The wrap around idea could work, and you could justify it as an expression of 3D rather than 2D space.

The thing I'd like to see in tactical combat is a "conclude combat peacefully" option. Sometimes I go in to soften up the opponent without destroying them. (Maybe I want to board / invade later on) I might take out the "disposable" enemy ships in the first few turns but then I have to press "End turn" 20 odd times because if you ask the computer to end combat it will obliterate everything it can.

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--
There is an exception to every rule. Including this one.

Re: Retreat Option
 

I don't miss the retreat option.
In SE III it even annoyed me sometimes: To chase a colony ship for several turns until it had no more movement points left was not the most thrilling things to do. And in the end the final outcome was almost always the same as without retreat option.

Re: Retreat Option
 

Yup I hate it when the AI runs to a corner and then sets there, Even if the ship will out run Plasma missiles they run and DIE http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Retreat Option
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
I think an unlimited / much larger tactical map would be best. I hate the idea that a ship can get stuck in a corner. How many corners do you know of in deep space? The wrap around idea could work, and you could justify it as an expression of 3D rather than 2D space.

The thing I'd like to see in tactical combat is a "conclude combat peacefully" option. Sometimes I go in to soften up the opponent without destroying them. (Maybe I want to board / invade later on) I might take out the "disposable" enemy ships in the first few turns but then I have to press "End turn" 20 odd times because if you ask the computer to end combat it will obliterate everything it can.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

screen wrap would be neat, but you would still need to increase the size, as your starting points would need to be closer to the middle so that people cant just jump to the other side of the map and be in point blank range when they start.

Re: Retreat Option
 

Screen wrap would be cool for battles between a few ships, but can you imagine with fleets of 30 or 40 on both sides, and hundreds of fighters? Yikes. What a mess.

Anbody remember what "Asteroids" was like after you broke up a few big boulders and you had a bunch of little pebbles flying around in 360 different directions? Now multiply that times 100, cause half those pebbles area under your control, and half of them are shooting at your pebbles. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif

Even with it being turn based and not real time, that would get hairy real quick. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Of course that would be one way to even things up between the ai and humans in tactical combat.

Geo

Re: Retreat Option
 

Since retreat is being discussed again, I'm bumping this up, for the benefit of newbies.

Re: Retreat Option
 

Thanks for bringing this topic back to the surface. I still think that retreat should be an option in combat, but it should be balanced through which ship is faster. I don't think the "forward retreat" option should be eliminated, because of the option of using few ships to break though enemy lines. It has been seen in several SciFi shows so I don't think that should be totally eliminated.

Additionally, I think that a componant on a ship - a "Gravity Well Generator" should also be utilized to allow attack fleets to prevent enemies from retreating.

Just My Thoughts,
Regards,