A deep thought regarding life out there
 

It occured to me yestarday, kind out of the blue, that life evolved on this planet because of our ability to adjust and adapt our environment to fit us because of our discovery of Fire. Without this basic element, life as we know it would not be.

No keeping in mind that all things throughout the galaxy are made up of the same elements, what would happen if you lit a match on a Methane world? BOOOOOM

How about on a Hydrogen world? Big BOOOOOM

Get my point? How could life evolve on world with explosive atmospheres? We had to have fire in order to advance our understanding of chemistry, technology, and just about everything else that gave us what we have now. With fire being a basic element throughout the galaxy, one would conclude that in order to evolve, one would have to have fire.

Well, I guess this eleminates the concept of inteligant life evolving on planets that have explosive atomspheres.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

[quote]Now keeping in mind that all things throughout the galaxy are made up of the same elements, what would happen if you lit a match on a Methane world? BOOOOOM

How about on a Hydrogen world? Big BOOOOOM

ummm, that is incorrect. If you can even get a match to ignite on a methane or hydrogen world, then you are a god. the reason being is that fire is nothing more than a chemical reaction in which a substance is oxidized (albeit somewhat energetically).

Therefore if you light a match on a methane world, nothing happens; there isn't any oxygen for the methane to react with. Same thing on a hydrogen world.

sorry to burst your bubble

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May your Life prosper and your Dreams be sweet.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Now this may not be scientificly correct (don't rightly know) but aren't most atmospheres made up of percentages of different types of gasses?? I seem to remember most trek shows on hostile worlds (ahh, the science of those raised on T.V. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif ) being hostile because the oxygen was way below par for earthers, and carbon dioxide etc was too high. Now what would happen if a match was lit on a 80% methane world (with 15% oxy and 5% carbon) ?? Would this be a qualified BOOM?
Just thoughts......

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"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Well, I am no chemist, but I think that if there were chemicals in the atmosphere that WOULD react with each other, they would before some hapless alien lifeform lit a match.
Also, I was thinking that fire might not be a requirement for intelligence. But I have to change my son's diaper and can't get into it right now.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Kellicus, speaking of chemicals reacting with the atmosphere.......sounds like you just might be dealing with a methane world yourself right now.. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

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"The Empress took your name away," said Chance.
Owen smiled coldly. "It wasn't hers to take. I'm a Deathstalker until I die. And we never forget a slight or an enemy." -Owen Deathstalker.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Well there goes my big bang theriory. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

You seem to be ignoring the fact that we were intelligent before we started using fire.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

It seems to me that on a methane or hydrogen atmosphere world, an oxygen source would essentially be the "fuel" for the fire, so your cigarette lighter would contain some sort of oxygen producer to allow a flame. As to percentages of gasses in the atmosphere, remember that the largest component of our atmosphere is actually nitrogen, which is inert. On a methane world, chances are that any quantity of oxygen, or any other reactive gas would already have been "burned" into a non-reactive compound. I realize that I am using terms loosely from a pure chemistry standpoint, but you get the idea.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Current theory is that life has to evolve on a planet before it can get a substantial oxygen component in the atmosphere. Oxygen reacts with just about everything, so you need life forms to pump it into the atmosphere faster than it can all combine into other compounds. Oxygen breathing life didn't appear until the first blue-green algaes supplied the oxygen.

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Cap'n Q

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Intelligence - or awareness/consciousness as in "knowledge of reality" is overestimated when speaking of terrans (trying to be as objective as possible).

The terrans think that the "invention" of firemaking (rather a discovery than an invention) is something to be proud of.

On a methane world the lifeforms would probably not need to make fire and would consider it pointless.

But that doesn't mean that they would be inferior in their knowledge of reality.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

I am not a Biologist or anything like that but it seems a bit narrow minded to remove the possilblity of life breathing other gases.
We understand really our own biology but have not yet found life on another world to study it. This could be because yes you do need O2 or the worlds near us just suck.

Hopefully one day we get to find out that we are not alone is this universe.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

I don't understand how we can even attempt to think of what other "life" may exist. We only know that our type of life form exists and all our assumptions are based on that. Given the number of galaxies out there we are definately not alone, we just may have trouble recognizing others if we meet them.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

With regard to the thoughts of species living on other types of gases complex lifeforms currently live on earth 'breathing' a type of methane oxide mix, now I must admit since these things are considered plants due to the fact they rely on something called cemo-sythesis, witch instead if using light oxegen and carbon dioxide they react the methane oxides in their bodies in what appear to be modified chloropLasts the reactions is, energetic, and provides sufficient energy to produce ATP (The chemical that animals store energy in) So a methane breather is not that far out there. Hydrogen, however is a major component on most of the shugars and fossile fules, but because they requirement of oxygen to create these chemicals is needed I don't know how succesful the species would be because I know of no process in witch hydrogen can be burned without carbon to produce anything but water. For a species witch did manage to breath methane fire would be no big deal as inside their bodies reactions so strong would be going on that they would be a furnace unto themselves, personally I feel mans greatest feat was to figure out puting a magnet through a coil of wire produced an electric current, this single feat produced the culture witch exists now. How many people are reading this with a light over their computer?

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:
I don't understand how we can even attempt to think of what other "life" may exist. We only know that our type of life form exists and all our assumptions are based on that. Given the number of galaxies out there we are definately not alone, we just may have trouble recognizing others if we meet them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So how about something like: "everything is alive"?

or

"All things have conciousness"?

or

"activity is life"?

What? ...no? I didn't think you'd think so either...

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Sirkit:

Methane oxide = CO2 + H2O.

Fire is just a chemical reaction that has a temporary plasma phase that usually emits visible light. On earth it is usually an oxidation reaction. In a methane atmosphere, heat a rock made from potassium nitrate and watch it burn.

Steve

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Lucanos,
Sorry I didn't elaborate more. I meant that given the large number of galaxies there are it is almost certain that there are life forms similiar to ours, life forms that we are totally incapable of recognizing, and every possible combination in between.
There is also probably a 50 - 50 chance that the first life form that comes in contact with us will be one we will not obviously recognize. If it happens that we meet another life form I hope we do recognize it, we may only get one chance.

[This message has been edited by Marty Ward (edited 04 April 2001).]

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Marty Ward:
Lucanos,
Sorry I didn't elaborate more. I meant that given the large number of galaxies there are it is almost certain that there are life forms similiar to ours, life forms that we are totally incapable of recognizing, and every possible combination in between.
There is also probably a 50 - 50 chance that the first life form that comes in contact with us will be one we will not obviously recognize. If it happens that we meet another life form I hope we do recognize it, we may only get one chance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totaly agree (almost). I think the chance of recognition is smallar than 50%, though. More like 1% or so.

The small insect doesn't know it's crawling on a more intelligent lifeform when it's crawling on a human, as the humans don't know they're walking on a more evolved lifeform. They don't recognize the planets as alive.

Maybe they are alive? What do we know? Really?

If you ask me - everything that is moving is alive - while saying this I might add: nothing is actually still.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

More on that thought of what's alive and what's not.
Does a insect think that a tree is alive, I mean that it does not really change much over the life of an insect.
So we humans live 100 years and who's to say that the earth is alive and very slow compared to us. Say it takes 10 million years for it to get around to scratch that itch!

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

The dog year thing is just an approximation because a dog's life is realitively short compared to ours, so when we say a dog is old (like around 12), we just compare him to a old person (like 84) - so we kind of understand that the dog is really old (because normally 12 years is nothing to us).

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Basically the 7:1 ratio just converts the labels "old", "teenage", "baby" etc.

So I'd expect most working dogs to retire before age 10 ( 7x10 = 70 years for a human)

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aussie Gamer:
Does a insect think that a tree is alive, I mean that it does not really change much over the life of an insect.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't belive that insects can think at all, nor that they can form a concept on "life" or "tree". But what I do belive is that they have some sort of conciousness.

Right before I try to smash the fly, who is sitting quietly on the table - eating his lunch, he reacts - as my hand is getting closer - and then he flies away. This proves that flies have conciousnss/awareness since it was aware of my hand, almost smashing it.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Right before I try to smash the fly, who is sitting quietly on the table - eating his lunch, he reacts - as my hand is getting closer - and then he flies away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Fly is alerted to a sudden increase in air presure as your hand begins its downward track toward the fly. The Fly, with its 3rd grade education, expertly performs an evassive manuaver that would make any geometry teacher proud. Funny how such a small thing can do such an incredible thing as that. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif (The Fly is now on the wall. I recommend a fly swatter. They approach without causing a large air disturbance.)

[This message has been edited by Atrocities (edited 04 April 2001).]

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Another tactic is to use a little pLastic "disc-shooter" gun http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
The little beasties can take two or three glancing hits before going down for the count.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

I've always wondered what a dog saw. What is it, 7 dog years to 1 human year. Is everything on fastforward for them http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

Geee.....as Life as we know it, Why and How do we as a race have the Ba*ls to think that WE are the only! are we so arogant to think this? sure WE may not have "found" any and with "Our" track record here of shoot first ask second "They" just might be waiting till WE grow up!
IMHO

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mottlee@gte.net
"Kill em all let God sort em out"

[This message has been edited by mottlee (edited 05 April 2001).]

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

I have not scanned this whole thread, so sorry if I am being redundant here. But I ran a cross a cool sig on slash a while back:

We may be all alone in the universe. We may not be all alone in the universe. Either way, its quite a concept, isnt it?

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

There are bacteria on earth that dont breathe CO2 or O2 you know. Its just that they live veeeeeeeery deep down in the crust and use a whole set of different chemical reactions to live. (I read this in Discover magazine, so its close enough to reliable I think)

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Instar:
There are bacteria on earth that dont breathe CO2 or O2 you know. Its just that they live veeeeeeeery deep down in the crust and use a whole set of different chemical reactions to live. (I read this in Discover magazine, so its close enough to reliable I think)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, I heard that a couple of years ago.

What is that anyway? A living particle? Is it carbonbased?

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

I read about the exploration of the underground sea/ocean/lake they found in Antartica. They assume its been completely sealed up for millions of years. Imagine what could be in there, could be anything from the cure for cancer or an incurable plague.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I read about the exploration of the underground sea/ocean/lake they found in Antartica. They assume its been completely sealed up for millions of years. Imagine what could be in there, could be anything from the cure for cancer or an incurable plague.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Or even Things Man Was Not Meant To Know. (see H.P. Lovecraft's "At the Mountains of Madness")

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Cap'n Q

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

I think our first contact w/ non- human intelligent life will be of our own creation - AI. Neural net tech is getting closer and closer to the "processing power" of the human brain. The trick is filling that artificial brain with all the experiences and motivations it requires to achieve sentience. It will happen though. When it does, I hope we are grown up enough to respect their rights, and not treat them as slaves.

My favourite fly-swatting technique is to sneak my hand really really slowly up to them and then flick them into a wall or something.

Anyone have any more info on that non O2 / non CO2 life form - sounds really interesting.

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There is an exception to every rule. Including this one.

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capnq:
Or even Things Man Was Not Meant To Know. (see H.P. Lovecraft's "At the Mountains of Madness")
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES!! Another Lovecraft fan... I've been considering creating some Lovecraft-based races (the Fungi from Outer Space come to mind, among many others). But I just can't find the time to do it. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
My favourite fly-swatting technique is to sneak my hand really really slowly up to them and then flick them into a wall or something.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use the trick of clapping my hands together about 6-12 inches above them. When the moving air makes them take off, they fly right into my hands...

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I've been considering creating some Lovecraft-based races (the Fungi from Outer Space come to mind, among many others).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Fungi from Yuggoth (aka Mi-Go) would have Natural Merchant, I think. They shouldn't need spaceports, since they don't even need ships for interplanetary travel. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

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Cap'n Q

Re: A deep thought regarding life out there
 

IIRC there is bacteria near thermal vents on the ocean floor that breath sulfur compounds (and the temps several hundered degrees celcius).

Mi-go, I choose the elder race! or perhaps the children of yog-sogoth (sp?)