Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Ok, I thought about this for a long time... I don't like the big bullet up above the bulletin Boards.

In a time when gun violence is rampant and stories fill our daily papers, I wrestle with this look.

I realize this is a "war" gaming forum and that the bullet is representative of that... and, of course, I know that MM/Shrapnel Games is made up of dedicated people (who make the best games ever)... but it still bothers me.

It bothers me that my children will see me logged into a forum with a huge bullet. It bothers me that it seems to emphasize the worst aspects of why we come here rather than the best...

Please don't flame me ... I am truly concerned and open to hearing your opinions - I just wanted to share mine.

Thanx,

Jason2

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I understand your feelings.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

While I do understand your feelings I don't think that a bullet being shown in a forum such as this is in anyway destructive or in promotion of gun related violence.

Unlike twitch games that sometimes glamourize violence all of our wargames are ones that require thought and are realistic. Instead of spraying someone with shells like certain FPS games, our biggest hit 101 actually has a person go down realistically if they are shot by a weopon. In think this sort of things promotes reality to folks and shows them how truly dangerous guns can be in the hands of someone who wishes to do them harm.

But to get back to your point I do understand the concern but I don't think it is a big concern, especially with the types of games we make and the audience they cater to.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I agree with Jason about Shrapnel's new look. I personally don't like the bullet either.

Perhaps Shrapnel games can design a new header that resembles something like the "Top Secret" stamp - I think that would be a good look for the forum.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I agree with Jason about Shrapnel's new look. I personally don't like the bullet either.

Perhaps Shrapnel games can design a new header that resembles something like the "Top Secret" stamp - I think that would be a good look for the forum.

Otherwise keep up the great work Shrapnel!

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I can understand the Jason argument, but... has someone noted that in SE4, usually you need to kill millions of people to have success?

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

We're not killing "people" in SE4, we're killing aliens! Well, OK, I'm being sarcastic; yes, it's a little unnerving that the best way to win the game is to commit mass genocide of multiple sentient races. Even the "peaceful" game options usually involve killing off the more radical empires.

I usually justify the whole thing by waiting until the AI declares war on me, and even then I frequently wait until one of my planets has been attacked before I start whuppin' 'em. Makes me feel a little better about glassing those colonies. My motto is "Retaliate and escalate". It used to be "Retaliate first", but that was a little cold-blooded and quite anti-social http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif .

My only problem with the bullet is that it doesn't have much place on the SE4 forum. Oughta be something a little more futuristic-looking. But then the other game Boards here would want _their_ own icons, and that would require even _more_ work on Shrapnel's part...

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I think everyone that frequents this site has some real intelligence and can tell the difference between abstracted computer violence (quite cathathic, actually) and the real kind. Most of those few in our society who cannot tell the difference exhibit these problems and symptoms from an early age.

While I do think it is commendable to have such scruples, I also think they are a bit misplaced here in this case. After all, this is in reality a wargame and this site sells wargames. In fact I like and enjoy playing wargames.

I think we all have to exhibit some balance and common sense in our lives or next we'll have to stop saying things like "it's number one with a bullet". Being PC can just go too far.

I also believe that healthy, sane humans can view pictures of bullets on a website and not have it directly affect them or the way they live their lives in terms of being violent. I'd consider a person extremely abnormal if they said it did.
JMHO.

[This message has been edited by ColdSteel (edited 02 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ColdSteel (edited 02 April 2001).]

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I understand your concerns. I don't like it when my little girl askes why I keep blowing things up but it could be worse, they could have put a jagged piece of metal up there http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

[This message has been edited by Nitram Draw (edited 02 April 2001).]

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

OK Guys:

Let's see what everyone thinks. Look at our announcemnts (should be at the top of this page entitled: The New Forum Look and The Bullet).

Read and vote!

Best regards,

------------------
Tim Brooks
Shrapnel Games

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

On a side note, I hope, Richard and others at Shrapnel, that you do not feel slighted. I simply was sharing my thought. I love SEIV (and admit to laughing out loud over the post about how to achieve victory and ... um... glassing planets, and over the post about a jagged piece of metal) and your other games. I just thought I would post and see what others thought.

J2

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I agree the bullet is out of place tho not for the same reasons, 1, this is a "Space" game 2,guns DO NOT kill people, People kill people! (oops...different soap box)I like the over all look but it dose need to be something different at the top

(thats mt $0.02 worth)
Mott

------------------
mottlee@gte.net

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Seeing as its "Intel Forums", I would go for a more spy-ish image, such as the "top-secret" stamp.

BTW, I did that vote, and the results page showed one result *not what I voted for* I even went back, and it showed that I had clicked the right option button for what I wanted.
Whats going on?

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

i can't abide by a "TOP SECRET" sign at the top. I'd never be able to read at work. Would cost me my job and my clearance. Would be difficult for me to convince the politicos that "it's just a game!" especially with the ATF and BCT games.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Suicide_Junkie:

Oops! Sorry about that. I goofed when setting up the survey and it wasn't updating immediately. It works now though... New software, all the little check boxes, arghhh...

Best regards,

------------------
Tim Brooks
Shrapnel Games



[This message has been edited by Tim Brooks (edited 03 April 2001).]

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I find it very impressive that Shrapnel/MM responded so fast and offered a vote.

I bought Fallout Tactics - which is buggy as heck and almost unplayable.... and the people at Interplay could care less now that they have our cash.

It is yet another reminder to me of how much this website and company rocks.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I do love how shrapnel responds to its customers, I love the color shceme but the bullet... I would prefer a radar screen or something, gets the same I dea across but isn't quite so blatant. By the way I don't know about the rest of you but in SE IV if I can help it I don't glass planets it's harder that way but I love a chalange, in one game I have taken the galaxy and hve killed (I kept a tally) only 89 million so far the dam planets keep rebelling! Gonna have to space the lot soon...

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Just my $0.02...

I voted "I don't really care one way or the other", and I really don't. I can understand the viewpoint of those who see the bullet as something out of place. I also understand those who say it's right where it belongs.

I have grown up and still live in an area of the country where guns are a fact of life. Nearly every house has at least one gun, and most males over 16 have at least one gun. Where I live, a gun is a natural thing to have, and people don't understand what all the fuss is about with guns. Some kid took a gun into his/her (though it's been mostly males thus far) school and shot at people? Then he never was taught how to use a gun. "He should get a good beating, he should have to look at what the results of his carelessness was, someone should teach him how to properly use a gun, then he should be put in jail for however many years the Judge decides", that's the response you would get here.

I believe in most of the arguements listed above. However, all the arguements above are the arguements of hunters, sportsmen. There shouldn't be guns made to kill people and only kill people available to the general public. It's a very sensitive issue, one that is made even more sensitive by the fact that the two sides are so diametrically opposite.

To get to the point: The bullet fits into the WarGaming genre. There are other things that could fit into the genre. Somebody will find something wrong with any header, no matter how many polls are held. For this particular one, it will probably end up being 33%/33%/33%, bullet bad/bullet good/I don't care. You can't please everyone.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Just thougt I'd add that th keep the bullet voters are ahead by 5%,followed by the dump it colum, VOTE PEOPLE VOTE, democracy doesn't work unless everyone participates

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Let me start off with the premise that violence is like money. In and of itself it is a neutral expression of conflict, an evolutionary transaction. Societies, cultures, like any organism, must conform to the rule that the first virtue is simply the ability to adapt and thus survive. All later cultural expressions, every art and every science must ultimately depend on this will to self preservation. Any culture which has eschewed such measures historically or begins to view violence even in self defense as anethema has ceased to exist.

A good example of this occured during one of the mongol invasions of China. The bureaucratic ruling class, the mandarins, upon learning that the mongols were advancing on them simply tokk to their beds in a show of complete fatalism and awaited death.

A game of this scope puts you in the position of absolute ruler and as such you must take absolute responsibility for all decisions, even the bloody ones that the struggle to survive and thrive imposes on competing species. To shy away from such action is both irresponsible and historically unrealistic. This is a wargame and like many of the better 4x or Civ type games it illustrates many of the painful truths underlying the success and survival of any species. Those who are most commited to their survival, do.

Some may think after reading this that I am advocating violence. Nothing could be further from my intention. It would be ideal if all species could live in harmony with each other, husbanding each other's growth culturally, scientifically and spiritually and perhaps one day we shall evolve to such a point on this planet. Until such a time arrives, however, a certain amount of historical realism continues to be merited.

Having said all this, I admit that I don't like the bullet. It seems a little too "Sgt. Rock" to me and these games are more sophisticated than that. So my objection is purely aesthetic, not motivated by any variety of political correctness. I felt it was important to put things in perspective (my perspective I suppose).

[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 03 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 03 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Magus38 (edited 03 April 2001).]

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Just caught up on this thread. My mony's worth:
I never fire on civilians in SEIV. Not from space anyway. I use lots and lots of ground troops. This makes for very rapid expansion since your population, territory and facilities all go up very quickly.

Hopefully some or all of you will have heard of an English comedian called Eddie Izzard:
<Izzard - approximate quote>
People say that guns don't kill people, it's people that kill people. True. You have to admit that the gun helps though. It's not so effective snaking up on peopl and shouting "BANG!" is it?
</Izzard>

As for the bullet... Not too bothered, although ideally I'd like to see something a bit more space themed for this forum. It's only cosmetic though, I'm far more interested in the content.
(Somewhen someone one suggested a word / excel camoflage look for people reading the forum at work. I support this idea completely=-)

------------------
--
There is an exception to every rule. Including this one.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I usually insist it's research...

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Will sez:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I believe in most of the arguements listed above. However, all the arguements above are the arguements of hunters, sportsmen. There shouldn't be guns made to kill people and only kill people available to the general public. It's a very sensitive issue, one that is made even more sensitive by the fact that the two sides are so diametrically opposite.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gee Will, how do you explain the early 1900s,
then?

If you had the money back then, you could
buy a freaking MAXIM machine gun thru the
mail, along with semi-auto pistols, which
would make you more well-armed than 99% of
the world's militaries at that point.

Semi auto weapons and Machine guns were
invented in the 1890s, but the militaries
didn't officially adopt them until the
mid 1900s.

And how would you define "made to kill people"?

The main component of the US Marine Corps
M40 Sniper Weapons System is a modified
Remington Model 700, AKA, the most
popular hunting rifle in the US.

And in all the fuss over .50 cal "Sniper
weapons", the libs forget that Barrett
invented the Semi-Auto .50 cal with
detachable magazine for civilian use,
and after it had been on the market for
a few years, the US Military came and
said: "Hmm, this looks good, let's try
it out!"

Lo and behold, Barret's semi-auto .50 cal
was adopted by the military and type classified
as the M-82 Weapons system.

And let's not forget the well known use
by the US Military in WWI, WWII, Korea, and
Vietnam of sawed off shotguns in close-in
fighting.

Your analogy is treading on thin ice here,
Will. I've fired both an 'evil man-killer'
AR-15 and a 'good hunting rifle', and I liked
the AR more because it didn't hurt my shoulder as much. And the ARs round is
HALF as big as the .270 Winchester, one of
the most common rounds used for hunting.

As for the bullet, I say, KEEP IT! Shrapnel
is about WARGAMING, first and foremost! It's
where they got started, and it's where their
bread and butter is (the fact that they
produced SEIV shows how nice they are)

BTW, what caliber round is that? Or is it
something your art boys whipped up?

[This message has been edited by MKSheppard (edited 03 April 2001).]

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I think the previous poster is right in that all (or at least nearly all) guns are designed to - or are capable of - killing people. Therefore it is pointless trying to differentiate between "military" and "civilian" weapons.

Not quite sure how that's supposed to _help_ the pro- gun ownership argument though=-)

------------------
--
There is an exception to every rule. Including this one.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

This has gotten way out of hand, arguing over the display of a bullet as a header. It is a wargaming forum, not just an SEIV one, and if Shrapnel wants to put a bullet, or a nuc, or even a picture of the playmate of the year up there, it's their choice. I am neither a hunter nor a sportsman, but I do own guns and have used them all my life, my first at the age of 12. I used to buy my own ammo too then. I learned how to use guns, and would never ever had considered taking one to school, park, or any other inappropriate place. The only way my guns are gonna kill someone is if that someone breaks into my house. What's wrong with today's society is that parents don't have the fortitude, patience, or take the time to teach their kids what's right and whats wrong. It's easier to blame things such as guns as the problem. I have 3 sons, all of which learned how to shoot and handle firearms properly by the time they were 10. But it's not just about firearms, it's life in general. Way too many parents are so busy with the rat race that they forget the really important things in life, such as their kids! For those kids that pull a trigger at a school, the parents are the ones that should be beat, for failing to be good parents. You guys got me on a roll here.

Back to the original discussion, it's Shrapnels right to display what they like, be thankfull that they have the consideration and caring to even put up a BB let alone ask for opinions. If I had all the money I wasted on computer games that were garbage and never worked as advertized I could buy a new hi speed computer....or maybe another gun..hehe http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Sabre21

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Interesting thread. And I'd just like to comment that this again shows the remarkable attention to customer support that the people at Shrapnel Games and MM have always shown. As another poster has said, you would never see this kind of dedication to their customers from one of the larger companies.

I just came from the survey, and found that it is currently almost exactly evenly split between, yes, no and don't care with regards to the bullet logo on the intel forums. Personally, I don't mind the bullet from a political standpoint for a wargaming forum (I'm Canadian from a big city, and my personal views on guns leans towards minimizing their presence in the hands of private citizens. But the gun control debate seems a little too large for an issue like decoration of the forum.). From an aesthetic point of view, however, the bullet doesn't really do a lot for me.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Sabre is right to say that this is getting out of hand. I think people's opinions on the politics of gun ownership and their opinions on the bullet image are getting confused. The two are not necessarily the same: I for one disagree with public gun ownership but understand and accept Shrapnel's choice of imagery.

Personally I think that if we keep talking about this gun ownership thing we risk bringing bad feeling into the forum: Whichever side of the debate you come down on you have to admit it's one of those issues where debate tends to have little effect on peoples' opinions.
I've had arguments on these sorts of issues before and the only resolution is to agree to disagree.

I'm not afraid of conflicting opinions or debate and I'm not telling anyone what to do but we are way off topic I for one am leaving this thread alone as of now.

------------------
There is an exception to every rule. Including this one.


[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 03 April 2001).]

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

IT'S NOT A BULLET!!!!

It's a lipstick dispenser.
They are trying to attract more females.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

For me, it's not an issue about guns and gun control - I just don't think it fits in very well with the form.

I said this earlier and someone else mentioned it as well, since it's the "intel" forum - some sort of "Top Secret" stamp motif would be better suited.

In Canada, they have introduced new controls where you obtain a special license that allows you to buy ammunition which I think is a good idea - but I think the government having too much info about the owners can lead to trouble. For example, if the police are called to a domestic dispute and they look up that one of the people have a gun - and they going to come with guns drawn?

I think the license is good - but we got to do more keeping illegal guns off the streets - that will make a bigger difference.

[This message has been edited by capt_spoogy (edited 03 April 2001).]

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Some additional Comments:

I must admit that I'm against hunting for sport. I think it is stupid - what kind of challenge is it to kill an animal with a high power rifle?

What's the problem with going out with a camera, finding the animals and taking a nice picture of it? What purpose does it serve to kill it for sport? It's different if you intend to eat it or need it to survive, but just to kill it to say "I killed this, isn't it great?"

To those that take these lives - I'd like you to take out a deer with your bare hands - on equal terms - or perhaps a bear.

I know this is out of topic and will be Last post in the SEIV regarding this.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
[b]Some additional Comments:

I must admit that I'm against hunting for sport. I think it is stupid - what kind of challenge is it to kill an animal with a high power rifle?

What's the problem with going out with a camera, finding the animals and taking a nice picture of it? What purpose does it serve to kill it for sport? It's different if you intend to eat it or need it to survive, but just to kill it to say "I killed this, isn't it great?"
B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't hunt, but I'm friends with a lot of them. Hunting for sport IS stupid, however, probably 99% of hunters eat the meat of the animal they kill, which in my book is fine. Unless your a vegitarian, noone should be putting down hunters, they are MUCH MUCH more cruel to animals (like cows and chickens) that are used by the beef / poultry industry than a hunter could possibly be.

As far as the bullet logo goes. It IS a wargaming forum. I don't condone war or killing but I do find the weapons / tactics facinating. I think of it more like a game of chess than anything else (which is just a very abstracted war game in itself). Your child should be educated enough (by YOU not the forum) to understand the difference between seeing a bullet and killing someone.

I'm not bashing anyone, just stating my take on it...



------------------
Regards,
KiloOhm

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I'm just saying that the bullet dosent go with "intel". If your spy killed someone, the authorities would be all over him/her and the operation would fail.
Something with a more "sneaky" spy theme would be better IMO, for an intel forum.

Try a cloaked figure whispering to someone, or a guy going through a file cabinet with a flashlight, that sort of thing.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
I'm just saying that the bullet dosent go with "intel". If your spy killed someone, the authorities would be all over him/her and the operation would fail.
Something with a more "sneaky" spy theme would be better IMO, for an intel forum.

Try a cloaked figure whispering to someone, or a guy going through a file cabinet with a flashlight, that sort of thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think by intel, they mean information gathering. Like knowing enemy troop movements is "intel", but not necessarily spying on them (it's hard to hide information like battalion movements), although sometimes they are the same thing.

I do agree that intel and bullets don't seem to match, but the bullet fits the nature of thier software in general (war games).



------------------
Regards,
KiloOhm

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I cannot believe that you liberal gun-grabbers actually dared to use this forum to inflict your personal politics on the rest of us.

Have you no shame at all?

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by capt_spoogy:
For me, it's not an issue about guns and gun control - I just don't think it fits in very well with the form.

I said this earlier and someone else mentioned it as well, since it's the "intel" forum - some sort of "Top Secret" stamp motif would be better suited.

In Canada, they have introduced new controls where you obtain a special license that allows you to buy ammunition which I think is a good idea - but I think the government having too much info about the owners can lead to trouble. For example, if the police are called to a domestic dispute and they look up that one of the people have a gun - and they going to come with guns drawn?

I think the license is good - but we got to do more keeping illegal guns off the streets - that will make a bigger difference.

[This message has been edited by capt_spoogy (edited 03 April 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just plain don't trust the Canadian government to know that kind of information, remember the big brother scandel, ug!

While I agree that this forum has been twisted a bit by "liberal gun grabbers" I don't think a flame was nessisary... Besides there is a voting forum for thiss issue making this preticular topic a mute point.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Sirkit, that wasn't a flame. Believe me, if I was to stoop to flames, you'd know it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Nonetheless, if you perceive me to have spoken inappropriately, I apologize.

Fact is, politics have no place in these here forums. I have my opinions, like they have theirs. Mine are just as inherently valid as theirs, and I have just as much right to express mine publicly as they have to express theirs. When those who would subvert our Constitutional rights rear their ugly heads, it is for all good men to challenge them, loudly and proudly. If you want to point a finger, point it at those who brought up this subject in the first place http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I predict that this thread is about to get closed and locked, and I suspect that it's probably for the best. Then it will truly be, as Sirkit put it, a mute (sic) point http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

"I just plain don't trust the Canadian government to know that kind of information, remember the big brother scandel, ug!"
Everytime I hear the comment "big brother" I have to ask:
Have you actually read the book that that came from? I hope you have, because its not about us, its about Communism. I don't see how anything about BB is relevant here, because we have a tried and true democracy, no matter what any dumb jerk wacko type ultra radicals say. Everytime I see a radical dumb(insert word of choice here) group demanding something about the government, I get so ticked. I bet those "militia's" don't even have their members vote. So they are dumb (again with the choice words)
As for the bullet, I have to say its close to neutral. If it was a picture of dead bodies, then I would be offended. But here in this forum about war, I think it could be considered appropriate.
(Who said that the .270 was twice as big as the AR-15? I thought the AR-15 was .223, which isn't close to 1/2 unless I am forgetting one of the wacky rules)

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I don't the book "1984" was about Communism, it was more about total government control of your life. Animal Farm was Orwell's book about communism. At least that is what I remember. Can't say he was to accurate about 1984 though.
I don't mind seeing the opinions expressed here and I hope Shrapnel doesn't close it.
They are only opinions and I don't think anyone is out to change anyone elses mind on any subject. Actually between this thread and the how old are you thread we are getting to know each other quite well.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

I don't like the bullet for aesthetic reasons. 1) The bullet is pointed out. It shold be pointed in, drawing the viewer into the forum. 2) It's a pretty cheesy cut and paste job. The background is a different color than the forum background. 3) The bullet itself is not very attractive or impressive. If Shrapnel is going to use a bullet, they should do a better job.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Possum:
Sirkit, that wasn't a flame. Believe me, if I was to stoop to flames, you'd know it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Nonetheless, if you perceive me to have spoken inappropriately, I apologize.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you sir for the appology, It just sounded like a bit of a flame to me, but it appears I was wrong my appologies http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Instar Said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(Who said that the .270 was twice
as big as the AR-15? I thought the AR-15
was .223, which isn't close to 1/2 unless
I am forgetting one of the wacky rules)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was. Here's a scan I did of a .270 and
a Winchester 5.56mm NATO spec round (.223
loaded to higher pressure)

http://cgibin.erols.com/ryanwolf/270.jpg

[This message has been edited by MKSheppard (edited 10 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by MKSheppard (edited 10 April 2001).]

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MKSheppard:
Instar Said:
I was. Here's a scan I did of a .270 and
a Winchester 5.56mm NATO spec round (.223
loaded to higher pressure)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WAY WAY WAY off topic here, but speaking of .223 and 5.56 and ARs, www.snipercountry.com has a link to an excelent editorial article from a primary source on the deployment / development / performance of the XM16-E1 and said cartridges. check it out, it is a compelling read.

also, a bit more on topic, I have a pics of some .50BMG as seen at the top of this page. in M2-ball, APIT, and / or match loads. I am sure shrapnel does not need the random pics i have laying around, and they probably chose that one for the size (bytes) of the image more than anything else. personally I think that a recticle, or a night sight, or a spotter monocoule or even a rifle scope would make a snazzy "INTEL" type picture while still maintaining the hard battlefield type feel.

Re: Umm, have to bring up the new \"look\"
 

Hmm, yeah I guess thats kinda close to 2x (but I was going strictly by diameter and not the length)
It does look almost 2x though, but thats mostly because of the length