Engineers laying mines
 

I have some engineer friends that I got turned on to SPMBT and the first thing that they said is why were there not any MICLIC's and I told them what I had seen in the posts, the other is something that I have not heard about, Why can't any nations engineers lay mines, just one or two. what they said to me was if you put one surface laid mine in the middle of the road, it will make the enemy more cautious, or take a unsuspecting way that you have made a firesack out of. How hard would it be or is it even possible? And something I can do myself but need help, can you assign a helo a FASCAM weapon to make it a way of air delivery mine field?

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

I guess that the reasons you gave your engineers not to have engineer units laying mines on-map are the sames that I'm about to repeat:

It would distort the gameplay too much. In defending positions the possibilities to lay mines are already great enough, the FASCAM units are overwhelmingly over-effective, and apparently the code doesn't allow much choice in the amount of mines laid each time (this needs programmers' confirmation). Having many other minelaying devices would give a defender too much of an edge in a battle, for quite a small cost.
Besides there are strong risks of bugs occuring.

Of course it is doable, Listy has come up with a perfectly good Shielder (UK) minespreader vehicle, and has apparently been able to apply the same principle to helos and aircrafts. Most probably you could do the same with infantry units.

Just remind that this thing will never become official.

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

that is pretty much what I told them, and I gave them the link to this forum, I told them that this is something I have no info on and if they decided to want a more in depth answer then this is the place to ask for it!
Now the other I must do more research, for what I found was Italian and it looks pretty simple, now my other question is if I give it a range of 0 does that mean it will place the mines in the hex I am in or the hex I am facing?

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

!!!Warning!!!

From my own experience, range=O implies game crash. Test it if you want, I may have had other issues when I tested that, but as soon as I fired a range=0 weapon, it all went fuzzy and back to desktop.

Better make that range=1, after all engineers are able to demine the next hex just as well. Make them area-fire into an adjacent hex and they will place their mines. More to the point, if you set them to fire (lay mines) into their own hex (provided you can) they have chances of 1) suppressing and pinning themselves, 2) not getting out of the hex with all their feet attached and 3) start demining their own mines.

The trick to attach a mine-spreading weapon to any unit, if you need to know, is the following: take an innocent unit, strip it off of its weapon and tweak as you like, then assign all its four weapon emplacement to the same, unoccupied slot in the weapon list.
Then leave that unit alone. Next step, go to the weapon page, copy to buffer any old FASCAM weapon, paste it to the very same empty slot you assigned to your unit and tweak as needed (range particularly). Do not try to change class. Save your OOB. Do not reverse these steps.
Important: DO NOT attempt to change the unit's data after you've created and assigned the mine weapon, otherwise you'll get stuck into this unit, the program will go on checking weapon/class incompatibility and you'll have to do it all over again.

In the first step you may want to change your unit's class to something inoccuous so as not to have the IA picking it and to separate it clearly from the rest.
This procedure should work with all kinds of units. THe trick is not to let the editor check the unit once the harm
is done.

That's a tricky workaround but broadly that's the only way to go (details may vary).

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

The way I did it.

I worked out the stats of the weapon, then classified it as a main gun, put it in it's place on the unit then changed the weapon to the correct class.
fed it into the points calculator, then went beck changed the weapon to a gun, added the correct points, then changed the weapon back to FASCAM.

Notes:
1. You will need one HE round as the Direct fire only works if you have HE rounds, don't worry this will not be used, the AP rounds will be. However when you run out of AP rounds you can still lay mines. I included the AP rounds to allow players to work out when they where meant to run out of ammo.

2. the Maximum mines you can lay per turn is 1 salvo, three weapons will provide the maximum coverage.

3. It may not cost many points, however, it won't kill many enemies, but it can throw a spanner in the enemies plans. on the whole a useful, but not overpowering weapon. Personally I don't know why it's not included, It makes people think more about realistic armies, IE: Mine clearing kit.

Oh and thanks plasmakrab...

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

I may need to put specific code in there to find and strip such weapons, and not just in mobhack. Only the minelet rocket and minelet artillery units will have minelet weapons.


That one has been trashed over for 5+ years. Situation is as the consensus of that time's discussions (some of which you can probably find in the yahoo groups, if they have not fallen off the queues due to age http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. So it will not be rehashed yet again.

No engineer minelaying, as no time to lay a realistic hidden and buried field, and only the 2 appropriate off map unit types will lay minelets. Human player would lay strings of mines in mission types where the AI does not buy engineers (only does so when assaulting, as a rule).

I may have to physically kill any units not of this type (damage the weapon or something) if folk insist on breaking the safety code built in to mobhack to any great extent. I'll monitor use OOBs for any proliferation of units which spread mines as if a farmer muck-spraying his fields http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!

Cheers
Andy

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

so it really won't cause any problems with the FASCAM being off map units? Thanks for the warning with the range 0 thing I tried it with a RTO or flame weapon out of the russian oob and not only did I crash the game but before it crashed I watched myself burst into flames and watched was left retreat, does that mean when i die I'll see how everything happens(lol), My main concern is say I have this weapon on a Blackhawk or some kind of heavy lift helo, can I control how many hexes that mines are laid to?
It was alot easier when I just printed out how to do it off this forum, really alot easier!!!!!!
My engineer buddies and I had this conversation today, and I totally agree that its not over powering and its very useful, of course their argue is the same as everyone else's, whos better than the rest of the combined arms group! you know ENGINEERS lead the way! And of course I had to argue why armor is the king of battle!!!
I don't know for game purposes if having little sapper men run around laying one or two mines in the middle of a road is worth it or not, but on the other side of things I still play this as a platoon level game which would fit this type of warfare perfectly! And by no means am I asking for this unit to be created, If I want it I'll find a way to make it myself.
Thanks for all of this, this is the first time I have to MOBHACK any thing and I'm finding it to be fun!!!!!!

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

MOBhack, I would erge you Not to kill any units.
Just keep the Offical OOB's free of such units.

Allow us the freedom to play with the game, and use units we create.

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

Right now, I will leave that exploit of the bug in. No guarantees, but future editions of the code may well have some code added to look for illegal combinations.


Andy

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

Mobhack, I don't know alot of what you said, and I seen kill in there somewhere, and farmers muck and I know none of that is good, but everything else, well, You got me!
I think what you are saying is don't play these against or provide these to anyone else!
I also agree with the whole assualt thing, for AI purposes, But some countries don't bury mines anymore, they surface lay them with the intent to direct or manuver a enemy force in a certain direction. It takes less than 3 min to employ a M-21 tilt rod mine or 30sec for a ground or air FASCAM minefield, now don't get me wrong I understand what you are saying, and this is strickly conversational not a plea for a piece of equipment, but many engagements have went one way or another due to a Airborne Engineers hasty laid minefield of 3 mines across the road to buy some time for what ever reason, and that is what I am trying to create!

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

I also know you can't determine a mine being buried or surface laid in the game!!!!!

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

One mine unit is a lot of actual mines, covering a 50 metre hex area, and hidden, ie buried.

Minelets are auto detected (as they are on the surface) - but they probably should have been removed when we converted to DOS SPMBT but had been there in the original OOBS, and were probably there in some scenarios as well. it takes a long time (an hour plus) of 18 or so 155mm howitzers laying minelet rounds, to cover a 150 metre or so minefield to an effective level. They are not instant, ans so really as we cannot do fractions of .001 of a mine unit mine laying, then the only mines really should be the pre laid ones as with SPWW2. Minelets would make sense in a division level game, which this is not. hence the restriction to 3 or so rounds, and the high cost, to balance the unrealistic laying time the game engine allows them.

Adding crop-spraying mine units in human hands, is not therefore a good idea, as they themselves would need several reloads to fill a 50 metre square to an EFFECTIVE barrier level. 1 hex point of mines of mines in SP games is an effective barrier level, and not a "nuisance" amount.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

Thats why I was concerned with how many hexes would be covered, What I was trying to recreate is a helo that can drop a FASCAM minefield for about 3 or 4 hexes about what FASCAM minefield cover now in the game.
I don't want to fill one hex with 50 mines, we would be back to that whole mine problem with there being to many, I don't like that bug.
I think if this was ever greated, like you said, its not good, you would have to have disipline, to make it fair to reality, thank you !!!!!!!!!!

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

A hex is 50 metres.

let's call it square for ease of calculation (it will actually be more)

Let us assume that 1 mine point represents about one mine in every 5 by 5 metre box for ease of calculation.

50 times 50 is 2500 square metres. divide by 5 times 5 is 25, so 2500/25 = 100 mines as a WAG for the amount needed.

100 anti-tank mines, are not carried in the back pack of a 10 man engineer section.

Additionally - SP minefields are dual purpose. So add a minimum of 100 anti-personell mines to our little garden of death. probably more, as apers to AP ratio os usually 2 to 1. say 300 mines.

A 1 point minefield may well be less than that figure i first guessed at - assume a narrow belt somewhere in the 50 by 50 square, rest being empty, so back to maybe 150 actaul mines. Still, probably a truck-load. And much more than a quick "phut" from some mine dispenser vehicle, which probably can throw a couple of dozen per discharge?. A bar mine layer might have 150 mines inside, but to plough that area would take it a half an hour (more?) - plus initial survey of the ground, placement of tapes and so on.

Any real minelaying is therefore not realistic in game terms. manual digging of the things would need a couple of sections (20 or so guys) and an ammo vehicle, with no interruptions, for maybe 2-3 hours (I dont have my mine warfare text to hand ATM). Surface laying would possibly bring the time down to 45 minutes or an hour - still not feasable in game terms, and we do not have a counter or any real concept in the game engine of an engineer task that needs 30+ turns uninterrupted to complete a task.


A mine symbol is not 2 engineer guys placing a half a dozen real mines into a 50 by 50 meter (half a football pitch or so) area.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

WOW, thats alot of mines, not what I'm looking for.
And I forgot about the whole AP mines, I'm not a cannon cocker but I did know they were dual purpose.
Yeh game scale forgot that to, half a football field is a big place to drive through with 2 or 3 mines laid.
Ok I have accomplished a couple of things
1- I burnt my brain messing with a couple of engineer guys
2- I mock some of the people who don't think before they type, and realized I have become one of those
3- I don't like mines in real life or this game but both are in my life in real and in the game
4- Andy, you are the only one I know that can use "FARMERS MUCK SPRAYING" in a sentence which deters the use of mines.
Wonder if we can't get you to speak at the UN on banning mines in warfare and you have to use that phrase in your speech.(lol)
As Maj. Abrams told use one day in pinion canyon, "men if you find yourself in a FASCAM mine field, don't get off your tank, they lay anti personnel mines also".
Thanks andy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

Shielder kicks out 240 mines in one salvo. I belive it can lay a mine feild 1KM long as well, Although that's probaly just a single line.

Shielder is bassed on the US M163 Volcano Mine laying system normaly mounted on a truck.

The other "On map" Mine laying unit I created was a tornado armed with a hunting JP233 and that has 215 mines per pod, and it carries two pods.

Don't ya jsut hate me? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

Here is are the vital stats for 'Volcano' and other SCATMINE from the Stryker Brigade Combat Team Field Manual at:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ap10.htm#10-22

Note in particular the

limitations 10-24 f

required densities table 10-3

(0.5 mines per square metre to 'delay') Mobhack was actally underestimating the number of mines required in his earlier example.

laying & reload times 10-26 c 1

( 10mins & 20mins plus movement time for an experienced crew) 3turns plus 7turns plus....

Please also note 10-28 b table 10-6

Minimum safe distance 235m (5 hexes)
Theoretical danger distance 640m (13 hexes)

You would probably blow yourself up an the approx 5% mislaid mines.

Also if they are randomly scattered how are you going to get out of the hex?

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

Plasma.....I need you to test something for me ASAP

Load the game and set the date to anytime in 1951 with anyone as player two but set player one to either NVA or VC.
It may be easier to either build a test scenario or a very small game on a 20x20 map. Buy VC "Sc Assaut Suici" and make sure you buy the ones that have the "bombe" as the last weapon. Then buy NVA "allies" and this time buy an "Assault Sec" that uses the "Assualt Squad" with the "bomb" as the last weapon

Both of those are the only two units in the OOB's that use a range zero weapon. I ran one test and there was no crashing on my machine. I need you to test if they cause a problem on yours



Don

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

I've tried both these units {VC & NVA)whilst musing over "terrorist" type scenarios to try to create suicide bombers.

At range = 0 both work but if under manual control vs a soft target you 'W' select weapon and type '4' (for the bomb/bombe) they fire their PPSh 41s then the LMG: ie Weapons 1 & 2. Thought this was a "only use the weapon as last resort" sequence coded in there!, as they very rarely use it under normal 'fire' command.

If you switch off weapons 1,2 and 3 then they do use the bomb(e).

Against armour they happily use the AP flavour of bomb(e) as its the best AP they've got.

Range = 0 seems to work, but the units are usually destroyed/routed/surrendered by AI fire getting to point blank. As the bomb(e) doesn't damage them (but is very nasty to the opponent)I thought the 'suicide' name related to closing with the enemy. Set up on turn 1 to occupy the same hex as an enemy unit they work, but this seems pointless under player control. Considered them for a "blow the gates" opening to a scenario.

Never tried them under AI control (which is what I wanted) as the oddities above made me think they wouldn't detonate.

Weeble

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

What I'm concerned about is he reported game crashes when trying range zero experiemnts, I know how they work. I want to know if he tries them is his system stable. Mine is, obviously yours is too but is Plasmas? If no, I need to fix this before the patch goes out and right now that's just about the last thing holding it up

Don

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

Wow, sorry to have to tell you this Don, but right now I don't have the game running and cannot have. I'm far from home and my computer for some more months, typing this on a corporate network workstation on which I can barely run the editing tools.

The crash I was reporting occured some time ago already, IIRC it was even on DOS-SPMBT, so maybe no concern anymore?
Anyway the problem may have been linked to rthe fact that the weapon I had put to range=0 was one of those "illegal" NLWs some of which came up (I was actually testing and adapting Listy's OOB), finding that 50m-range truncheons were quite ambitious.

So as you said about in a post about non-lethal weapons, the HEK=0 may be the cause to it. Sadly I cannot run the tests ATM.
As you may have guessed I didn't ever come across the weapons you mentionned, so as other NLWs were tested to work correctly I thought that was linked to the range. Lack of method from my part.

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

OK, NO problem. We've tested it on our machines and had no problem. I just wanted you to try it just in case we missed something but there are only two units in the entire game that use that weapon and I'm betting 98% of the people will never used them so it's really a bit of a non issue really.

**If** it turns out this IS a problem on some machines we can fix it after WinSPWW2 is done but I'm betting right now it was a combination of issues that casued the problem and being DOS-SPMBT was probably the main one.

The patch is ready. It's at Shrapnel now and should be released this week sometime.

The patch installer is 12mb

Don

Re: Engineers laying mines
 

OK, thanks Don, I really didn't want to be the cause for a delay in the issuing of the patch!

I'll try all that again when I have the opportunity, in case there would be something behind it, but anyway that'll be for when you guys are ready to take up work on SPMBT again, which I wouldn't dream of forcing you into considered what you have already achieved!

Same for the patch, I'll tend to stick to what Pepper said: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif more or less. That should be the final adition to tons of terrific work, I can't wait to see it!

Congratulations once again