The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh My)
 

I'm thinking of creating two races, one called "The Plague" which does the following:

A psychic race employing allegience subverters, computer viruses, boarding parties, ionic dispersers (engine destroyers), phased polaron beams, and null space projectors.

and the second race called "The Cure" which would counter the The Plague.

Forgive my newbness, but I was curious, and was thinking about different ways someone could also prevent their ships from being subverted or captured in combat to The Plague.

How does one counter a psychic race employing null space weapons and computer viruses?

And does it make sense that in response, to put MCIIIs on ships with Bridge/CQ/LS/AuxBridge - can a ship be subverted if it still has crew AND an MCIII? The idea I'm aiming for is a countership that can withstand multiple null space hits and allegience subverter attempts while still able to maneuver effectively enough to score some of its own kills or captures.

Does it do any good to have multiple MCIIIs or multiple bridges? Like, what would be the best combo to retain movement control in a battle against a null-space allegience subverter fleet which also happens to employ computer viruses?

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Impossible to have more than one computer or bridge... Although master computer plus human crew may guard against Allegance Subverters...

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Master computer defends against crew takeover; crew defends against computer takeover. Have both, and your ships are perfectly safe - Although I don't know if anyone's tested a ship designed to attack both.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

A destroyed computer still protects against subverters.
Adding B/LS/CQ means your ship keeps full speed after its computer is destroyed.

A self destruct device prevents normal boarding as long as it is intact.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

NullAshton said:
Impossible to have more than one computer or bridge... Although master computer plus human crew may guard against Allegance Subverters...

You can add as many master computers as you would like to a ship design. Bridges are hard-coded to one per ship, but that is what Auxilliary Control components are for.

Suicide Junkie said:
A self destruct device prevents normal boarding as long as it is intact.

As of 1.91, the AI will apparently attempt to board ships with an active SDD.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

As long as it (the SDD) is intact, yeah.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

The one per ship restriction on bridges is actually ignored if a master computer is present. Not that this really matters in stock, as there is hardly ever any benefit to having multiple bridges over having more armor or weaponry.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Really? I thought you could have only one computer, like sats.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Well, I wonder if an overall fleet doctrine of capturing enemy ships would work in SEIV.

I was thinking that The Plague would depend on large numbers of cheap specialized ships that would work together for the good of the boarding and subverting ships.

Has anyone ever tried boarding and subversion as an overall fleet doctrine before? Did it work well?

I ran some designs in the simulator last night, and I must say that the coordination paid off. Resource for resource, boarding/subverting was either on par or far ahead of other doctrines I tested.

Research-wise, it has its drawbacks, so a good early defense is necessary, but when boarding and subverters become available, the resource curve for boarding/subverting plateaus off versus following other doctrines around mid tech.

One thing is for sure. If I ever get The Plague perfected, they will be one annoying AI. Due to their fleet doctrine, they would practically force you to make peace with everyone else while you refit your ships valuable space with MCs and anti-boarding stations just to defend against their attack, not to mention finding a way to make best use of the remaining space for offensive operations. On top of it all, forcing you to carry lots of repair ships to fix all the engine damage when you do survive their attacks.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

If only you could get the AI to deconstruct and analyse those ships it captures... then the research advances would be deadly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Only 1 Aux Control per ship. I don't know if it's the same when you have an MC onboard, but I think it is.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

In my testing I realized you can have multiple MCs but only one bridge and one aux.

I put multiple MCs on the Neutralizers (engine destroying) and on the Depleters (shield destroying) and they survived long enough to do their jobs. The Decoys also do well with an extra MC, but I find that it isn't needed with all the armor and shields they are carrying to draw in enemy attention.

The Boarders only need one engine less than the rest of the fleet since all they carry are a single depleter and lots of boarding troops, and they need to arrive at the battle a little late so they can rush and capture helpless hulks.

I also designed simple escort-sized Subverters whose main job is to be fast flying cannon fodder when the enemy wisens up and starts using MCs.

Now if only I can figure out what AI to start from to use as its template...

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

I was noticing that in high tech games, that Cure ships would have security stations and MCs, and a few APBXIIs. In the simulator it is only these ships that manage to start countering Plague tactics.

I wonder if I should also create Flailers as escorts, they move in, temporarily disable weapons, Subvertors move in and attempt to subvert, Depleters move in and disable shields, Boarders move in and attempt to board, and Neutralizers move in and disable engines and repel the hulk out of harms way before Cure APBs come back online.

Rinse, repeat. I'll try it tonight.

After all, now that I think about it, isn't that was diseases usually do - they disable a cell's defenses and then once disabled it moves in for the takeover?

Can flailers work against ships with destroyed MCs? If so it would be nice to be able to design a standard Plauge battleship with multiple MCs, computer viruses, flailers, lots of boarding parties, and a repeller in case the first attempt fails.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Thanks to the ease of getting self-destruct devices: No. I haven't played with psychic much, but it seems the only way the Plauge would work long-term is to hope that it shoots out the self-destruct devices before the boarders arrive. There's also the fact that all boarding parties on a ship are expended in an attempt to board, regardless of how many are actually needed.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Are you sure? I was running the simulator multiple times and I believe my boarders were able to board several times, even after failed attempts.

Forcing self destructs on enemy ships sounds like a nice idea for The Plague. It fits right into their theme.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

That's how it's always worked for me. Form what I understand, the simulator isn't a 100% reliable indicator of what will happen in actual combat for some reason.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

It is a confirmed feature that all boarding parties are lost in any boarding attempt, successful or not.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

drat. well, how does one get them back?

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Repair, just like any other destroyed component.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Oh, so The Plague would need their repair ships. Well, ok, that was already planned for. After all, with their primary strategy to board engine destroyed, mentally flailed sitting ducks, the other half of the fleet should consist of repair ships (albeit carrying additional subvertors or boarders).

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

If you want to make a mod, you could also give the boarding parties the regeneration ability from organic armor.
You will need at least one surviving component with the ability to regenerate them, but you'd be able to make boarding attempts every few turns in combat as the parties get rebuilt.

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh My)
 

Perhaps give Plague MCs/Bridges Armor Regen too, so they regenerate. Not all comps, as that would give them a massive advantage; it essentially becomes an all-or-nothing hit if you attack a ship, but perhaps some key comps and maybe a few minor weapons, like Ripper Beams and light PD. Would give the Plague ships excellent survivability, as with real diseases, but it wouldn't make them all-powerful. Just make their ships more durable this way, and reduce their construction rate. They multiply slowly; but once they have a ship, they're going to keep it.

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh My)
 

SJ, I really wouldn't want to create them as a modded race, as I want them usable in stock games.

I think the Plague would only need to invest heavily in the occasional Plauger (battleship repair bay+boarding) as Plaugers would be used by the Plague to repair the gutted engines of the ships it captures, and repair the fleets of their boarders.

I was also thinking of giving a name to the leader of The Plague: Primary Host. Posted here for future reference.

Does anyone know if the AI can analyze ships?

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh My)
 

The Plague

Background:

The Plague was originally a genetically engineered psychic bioweapon created by the CueCappa to be used against other races to capture entire empires intact and assimilate captured empires into docile subservient societies. The original experiment got out of control, and infected the designer of the The Plague.

Known only as the Primary Host, because those with knowledge of the project have since been infected, the Plague seem to be driven to fulfil their engineered mission to fruition: the peaceful takeover of the entire galaxy by Plague infection.

Most of the CueCappa race in the nearby system were infected rather quickly, and attempts at eradication and quarrantine have been met with devastating failure as often ships sent in to contain the threat have not been heard from again. Ships that do survive encounters with Plague ships speak of the horrors of watching entire fleets succomb to the Plague in a matter of hours, often in a chain reaction that results in total capture of fleets sent in to contain the Plague.

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh My)
 

now if only there was a way to take both religious and psychic traits...

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh
 

There certainly is. See:

http://www.spaceempires.net/home/content-1.html

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh
 

my newbness shows.

well that's cool. religious talismans, flailers, subvertors, boarders, and IDs ... oh this is really my my.

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh
 

By the way, you might wish to consider taking up the Crystalline trait, for two reasons:
- Crystalline armour is a tough nut to crack, especially for the IA. If you play your cards right, you will be immune to anything dealing 149 normal damage or less, though Shield Depleters/Disruptors will still be a problem. Even then, your ships should last a lot longer against enemy fire... and if they use up all their supplies firing at you, they won't be moving around so much (and will lose their shields).
- More importantly, the Crystal Dampener is NOT broken by Master Computers. That little device allows you to shut down all the weapons of the target for X rounds, where X is equal to the amount of damage dealt. The Psychic trait has a similar weapon, but that one *is* negated by Master Computers.

And some more fun things with this trait:
- The Shard Cannon bypasses armour, thus allowing you to fire at the components "inside" the ship, and leaving armour intact. It could allow you to destroy the SDD while leaving armour intact, increasing the odds of disabling the SDD without destroying the ship in the process.
- The Crystalline trait gives a very nice facility to reduce maintenance costs in the system: might come in handy if you have a big captured fleet.

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh
 

If you add some Emissive Armor to your 10+ Crystalline Armors, that immunity goes up to 179 damage. Not even a Heavy Mount APB XII can scratch that at range greater than 3 without getting a lucky hit on the emissive first, and APB XI needs point blank. Of course, massive mounts, armor-skipping weapons, and high damage slow firing weapons can deal with it, but it's still pretty tough and a major cost saver.

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh
 

Not quite: the Emissive Armour is very likely to get hit, because of its small size, and it is *not* protected by the Crystalline ability. So, only shots actually hitting the CA components will be "negated": shots on non-CA armour will work as usual.

Of course, it will work as you say so long as the Emissive Armour doesn't get destroyed. I think a few Shield Regenerators might also help with increasing the CA's protection: if the enemy has to get through 40 more points of shielding every turn, more damage has to be dealt to start breaking down the CA, even if more than 150 damage is dealt at once.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Actually, its small size makes emissive armor less likely to be hit. It's just that when it does get hit, it's not tough enough to survive the hit.

A component's probability of being hit is directly proportional to its structure. Emissive armor has 50 structure, Crystalline has 150, so any individual piece of emissive armor is 1/3 as likely to be hit on any given shot as any given piece of crystalline armor. If there are 10 crystalline armors (minimum to get maximum immunity) and 1 emissive, each hit has a 1/31 chance of hitting the emissive armor.

Going with my usual combination of having 2 backup emissives, hitting an emissive armor when everything is still intact has a probability of 1/11. Once one emissive is destroyed, hitting another is 1/16. On average, it will take 11+16+31 = 58 hits with weapons that do less than 180 damage to destroy all 3 emissive armor components and bring the damage immunity down to 149. Meanwhile, the presence of emissive armor is taking 30 damage off of every hit the ship takes.

Re: Master Computers, Combat Movement, & Boarding
 

Unfortunately, that only applies to internals.

Components with the Armor ability are killed weakest-first.
There is a very slim chance of stronger armors being taken out early, but in the vast majority of cases, the tiny armor dies first.

Leaky-armor does not have the armor ability, and so it counts as internals. That's why large leaky armors get hit more often.

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh
 

Hmmm... psychic+cyrstal eh? Makes for an intersting Plague fleet:

Subverter: wall, capture ship
MC - 20kt
6x engine - 60kt
tractor beam - 20kt
allegience subverter - 50kt
Total - 150kt (escort)

Decoy: spider, max range
MC - 20kt
6x engine - 60kt
stealth armor - 30kt
scattering armor - 50kt
crystal armor - 30kt
shield generator - 40kt
allegience subverter - 50kt
shield depleter - 20kt
Total - 300kt (destroyer)

Neutralizer: spider, max range
MC - 20kt
6x engine - 60kt
combat sensor - 10kt
energy dampner - 50kt
computer virus - 50kt (30kt for computer virus III)
titanium armor - 10kt (replaced with stealth armor for 30kt after computer virus III)
Total - 150kt (escort)

Depleter: wall, max range
MC - 20kt
5x engine - 50kt
4x shield depleter - 80kt
Total - 150kt (escort)

Plauger: wall, capture ship
MC - 20kt
5x engine - 50kt
tractor beam - 20kt
shield depleter - 20kt
3xboarding party - 60kt
shard canon - 30kt
Total - 200kt (frigate)

Repairer: wall, dont get hurt
MC - 20kt
5x engine - 50kt
repair bay - 150kt
4x point defense canon - 80kt
Total - 300kt (destroyer)


The whole fleet is suceptible to computer viruses though, but then again, some designs could sport multiple MCs for greater adaptability. To counter this fleet you would have to design ships with both MCs, crew, and security stations - all space wasters if you are engaged in war with another race besides the Plague. That's what makes them annoying. It's easy to take on the Plague one on one, but when you are fighting other AI and/or other players in mid game besides the Plague, well, their annoyance is greatly magnified as you have to convert valuable space on ships just to counter them, as well as research specific Plague strategy counter-techs.

What do you all think so far?

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh
 

Btw, I got this idea from a ST:TNG episode "The Game" - about a highly addictive game that took over the crew of the Enterprise and which had hyponotized them into a war for an alien race. Addictees were so affected by it that they would force the game upon those who had never played - which resulted in the quick takeover of entire ships. Of course they never realized they were being controlled by an alien race until someone discovered a method to dehypnotize the players. Does anyone remember that episode?

It's kinda what I imagine The Plague to be: psychicly hypnotized people forced to psychicly hyponotize more people in a chain reaction that takes over entire empires in service to an alien empire, except this experiment went awry and now no one controls these people, but these hypnotized people are all determined to share The Plague with everyone else.

Maybe I should rename The Plague to "The Mentality" since this would probably be closer to what they are doing.

Intersting to fight a bunch of poor hypnotized saps who don't know any better, as they quickly turn your friends into hypnotized saps that are now out to get YOU hypnotized as well, or force you to face permanent "neutralization," eh? Whatever you do, don't trust your citizens to these missionaries or they may no longer be your citizens.

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh
 

I think the ywere actually 2 episodes "The Game" is whe nWasly finds everyone else addicted to the game. "Conundrum" is where they lose their memory and almose attack a technologicaly inferior race.

I like the race idea, sounds like fun to play against.

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh
 

I'll keep workin' on it. Suggestions are greatly appreciated for this newb. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

*crosses fingers and hopes Deluxe doesn't wreck his plans*

Re: The Plague (Subverters, Boarders, and IDs, Oh My)
 

I like boarding parties, but have found them to be less useful in large battles. While great for cleanup work, in larger battles the capture ships die very fast and mostly before they can strike. Don't forget that the shields must be taken down for them to work. When a ship is captured, it is usually targeted by the enemy and destroyed.

For the ships you have listed, I would bump the small ones up to DDs at least. There is very little cost difference between a ES and a DD. especially once you get the heavier engines. Put some more Al. Subverters on it, and away you go. They will then fire at one ship, if they miss, they will fire again. If they hit, they fire next turn at a new ship with the others A. Sbvtrs.

Plus if multiple types are DDs, you can convert them from one type to another if you find large numbers of one are destroyed, or one type does not work against someone on one front.