Mid Game+ magic.
 

Usually the first 15 or so turns are pretty straight forward choices for me. You know what spells you want instantly, for me its Summon Imp and either Mind burn or Solar Rays so my combat mages can do stuff while I expand. After that its a bit of construction and then some blood to get some better summons etc.

But there comes a point that I'm never quite sure what to push for and I set my research to just go for a single level 9, with no real appreciation of the stuff inbetween.

So I guess my question is, what do you guys see as invaluable or pivotl spells in your mid game onwards development.

I'm just playing an aran map with Ermor as the first nation I have faced, so for me this time it was pushing for holy pyre and getting some good high priests of the sun, forging a couple of flambeau and punishing his enormous hordes of ghouls. But Im floundering now, what to go for !!!!

Spirokeat

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

For death, important spells include:

Drain Life
Summon Spectre
Well of Misery
Reanimate Archers
Revive Bane Lord
Bane Fire

And of course raise skeletons, though that is really normally researched early game.

Some other handy mid game spells:

Relief
Horde from Hell
Thunder Strike
Blade Wind
Falling Fires
Falling Frost
Contact Lamia Queen
False Horror
Frozen Heart
Mother Oak
Gift of Health
Bind Ice Devil
Soul Slay
Nether Darts
Awaken Ivy King
Pheonix Pyre

EDIT: Misread it, thought you were playing Ermor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

I concentrate mostly on Conjuration and Construction to get SC's, SC equipment, unbreakable troops (e.g., Vine Ogres, undead, constructs), and eventually, artifacts. I will split off a small percentage of research points to bring other magic schools to at least level 2. You get Acashic Record at Conjuration 5 for searching your most secure provinces. (Don't waste it on a province that an enemy might be able to capture and hold for a long time.)

For Blood nations, research in Blood substitutes for Conjuration, at least until Blood 5 (Ice Devils).

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

vrs ermor it might be good to get some dark vines and as you have mentioned high preists are really good on them. but i would say if possible get your pretender to summon abominations

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

Funnily enough I don't use dark vines that much but I called some for this game. I often find they dont actually get to the battle quick enough. but any particular reason why dark vines vs Ermor ?

Abominations....never used em, but Conj 9 ? I would have normally said that would come after blood 9 at the least and probably construction 8. Ice devils Ive yet to use. God knows why.

Spirokeat

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

the reason i suggested dark vines vrs ermor is because for the cost they are really dam hard to kill. and i know abominations are hard to get but they are worth it
(266 health and 27 regen a turn with an extremely strong ranged attack and 3 life drain tentacles)
i just have an add liking for dark vines (but then again im also a fan of crossbreeding) and of course vrs ermor (or anyone else for that matter) you could just go with the tried and tested horde of devils

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

I don't use Abominations either. However, Conjuration 9 has many goodies. Ghost Riders, Tartarian Gate, Haunted Forest, Legion of Wights, and Wild Hunt are all excellent. Even with only a modest Death gem income, you really want to be casting Tartarian Gate. It is probably one of the best bargains in the game.

Ice Devils rock. Arch Devils are good too.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

Dunno about the dark vines. They do have tons of HP, but I find that thier size makes them get swamped so fast that it really doesnt matter. I guess if you had a critical mass of vines it might be pretty effective? How many do people use regularly? Dont think I've ever summoned one, myself...

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

I have used them, they are decent. Like vine ogres except no mr problem, and better stats in general (in particular, four more protection makes a difference). The flip side is they need magic leadership. They are also more expensive, but unlike vine ogres they are not limited in production by your nature gem supply.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

dark vines are excellent. they have the charming ability to take down SC's if needed, which more than makes up for any flaws.

7 or 8, w/ chaff support, is good. Casting regen or luck as well, is better.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

Ah, yes, I forgot their biggest advantage over vine ogres: armour piercing weapons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

Ok, so I summoned a Ice Devil finally. Equiped him with wraith blade, bone armour, winged shoes, ring of regen and amulet of luck.

First battle he enters against an army of infantry and a mage. Paralyzed. instantly dies.

MR of 19. Im hoping that it was a big fluke.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

some time you should really try atlantis and go for conjuration and just spam abominations and of course you can use lots of sea trolls/krakens for cheap expaners
(construction also if you want to boost your mages to S4 for abomination and if reasearch is on easy you could go for evo to get malestrom)

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

I dont really play to win, so choosing atlantis to follow a particular pattern is not my style.

I play for themes and genre based concepts.

I've just read so much about ice devils, I was kinda suprised he fell over so quickly.

Spiro

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

Atlantis PD becomes quite powerful after you research Alteration 6: every W1 mage can cast Quickness and spam Frozen Heart. Unfortunately, they can't be reruited from every castle as Marignon's F1 Initiates. I recall someone having great success with Initiates on defence, thanks to the Conjuration spell Will'o'wisp.

Ice Devils are powerful, and one of them even starts with a life-draining weapon that protects him from fire. All of them can cast Quickness and BoW, they have good stats and all except one have full slots (or two, as you mighn't be able to change the Hell Blade away from the one who has it, I don't see why you would). They are also available quite early. They were mainly used in Dom:PPP, where every one of them had the same stats, and there were unlimited numbers of them (in fact, there were no uniques at all).

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

Ok, but what constitutes an SC....I see the term chucked about, but it has varying levels.

What are the limits of particular SC's....Bane Lords and Ice devils for example.

Spiro

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

Are you sure that Ice Devil gets Fire Resistance? I know the Virtue does not get the 50% Fire Resistance granted by her Flambeau. You should also be able to remove the Hell Sword from that devil, if it follows the same "rules" as the other armed commanders.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

His fire resistance is built in. Useful.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

for those who dont know, SC=super combatant and in an unmodded game alot of people think it neccesary to give a life draining weapon to a SC (blood thorn/hell sword) banelords are popular often just because of their cheapness but if you have what you need ice devils work really well.

one of my favourite (extremely expensive) scs is a nataraja with a bloodthorn, hellsword, shield of gleaming gold, any good armour, winged shoes, ring of the warrior and another misc item. as for the helm it depends, against basic troops try horror helm but spirit helm is good all rounder

(i usually wish for this guy with my pretender and have someone weilding dwarven hammer (ulmish smiths work good if you can cast forge of the ancients) to make his equipment. with awe (+0 but still) and 2 lifedrain weapons hes hard to kill and using that unique helm that has awe works well too but generally dont send him out until he has empowerment (preferably astral for luck+etheral+shield) to buff himself as hes too expensive to waste

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

It can happen to any SC, even with the best equipment. You can give it lower risk assignments (e.g., capturing provinces with low PD, having it fight alongside an army), or you can just create more SC's. In my opinion, the SC's mobility is more important than one-man-army heroics.

Did you have him buff with Quickness and Breath of Winter? BoW will help even when the SC is unconscious. Bone Armor is low protection, and the Wraith Sword already gives you life drain. Try something with higher protection, such as Marble Armor. A Starshine Skullcap would be good since you can never have too much MR. With lots of Blood, you could give him a Blood Thorn, which would free up one hand for a shield -- Charcoal Shield is my favorite.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

and if you need a pure def shield go for accursed

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

Well, my reasoning on the armour was that
A> You can never have enough life drain.
B> Its AE so for one man army heroics when hes surrounded and his def is quickly nullified hes still draining around him

I had him casting quickness I wasnt sure BoW would stack with his chill aura.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

If you lost a SC to Ermor AE, it's because relying on life drain items is a big mistake. (I thought you said in your first post that you had handled Ermor easily and were floudering after defeating Ermor.) You can't life drain from lifeless units, such as most AE undead. Most undead are also resistant to cold, so an Ice Devil isn't the best match (though it should do fine with the right equipment). Herald Lance and Charcoal Shield are good, or you can go with the double-handed Flambeau.

You shouldn't rely on a single set of equipment for a SC. You have to know the best equipment for the situation.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

if you want something quite cheap vrs ermor then use (as said) a charcoal shield+herald lance on something flying(winged shoes on it if it cant fly)
golems are really good for this with their self buffs and something like jade armour will help get those buffs done quick.
and of course if he summons any big nasties or if you need an sc killer a golem with a gate cleaver is pretty good.
for any golem i would suggest ring of the warrior and a defence increasing item for misc slots

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

I believe it was determined a while back that wielding two life drain weapons at once does not increase life drain noticeably.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

No, Ermor was fine, Im aware of the lifeless lifedrain issue. For Ermor I simply set my fire mages to a lot of Holy Pyre, made a couple of Flambeau for my tribal commanders and arsed them.

I don't flounder at what to do. I just find that I probably dont spend enough time empowering my mages to cast the higher level spells and instead go for specific high level casts or summons to cast with my pretender or a special mage type.

The Ice Devil I'm guessing was more unlucky than anything. He should have bashed the army he was facing good. Instead the first spell paralysed him and it was game over. oh well.

Spiro

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

personally i try to avoid empowerment unless i really have to use it and i generally forge more boosters instead so half the time i end up making more boosters than i need and not being able to cast spells
(ever tried ulm with forge of the ancients up and a smith or 5 with dwarven hammers, blood thorn only costs about 4 slaves then and the forge makes lots of items available to them)

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

If you mean literally empowering that is not a bad a thing, empowering is normally used very sparingly unless

A. You are empowering in blood to reach a specific spell/item

B. You are empowering in astral to reach wish or other high level spell and have tons of clams

C. You are empowering in nature (usually a druid to n3 or a lizard shaman to n2s1) in order to get to lamia queens to diversify your magic.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

unless i have more than 1 or 2 levels to go up i dont empower, i mean why spend a ton of gems boosting a druid to lvl 3 when you can give him a thistle mace and why spend a ton of slaves when you can get a brazen vessel

(unless you really need to research something before construction of course)

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

You need to get the druid to level three so that the thistle gets him to level four = lamia queens and treelord staff. Or in the case of the lizard shaman, empowered to n2 he can thistle mace, taking him too 3n1s, getting him to moonvine bracelet, which takes him to 4ns1.

With blood, using all possible boosters you can get +4 blood. So unless you have a b5 mage without empowering you cannot, for instance, get demon lords. Also, you often have only b1 mages, so taking one to b2 to start the booster path is common.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

mastema the heliophagus +4 blood = 8 bld which is enough for a demon lord.

also its B3 to start the booster path, or b2 + ring of sorcery, or B1 w/ rings of sorc and wizardry

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

hmm... I thought about double checking my numbers, but I was too lazy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

In any case, not everyone can have mastema, and there is the book of black secrets at b2 (which is obviously not always an option). It still boils down to blood being probably the most empowered path, however.

Re: Mid Game+ magic.
 

Exactly. You may also empower Airmages in blood for storm demons and the like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
If you play a faerun size game this is a good strat for Pythium. Once you are wishing empower some arch theurgs in blood and summon storm demon hordes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.