Super snipers???
 

Gentlemen,

I suppose this was an issue in the earlier versions, but I have the impression that snipers perform much better in this game that they would in RL. And you can buy an effective sniper for 7 points! Your thoughts about this?

On the other hand I find that the MGs could be a bit more lethal than they are now (a'la H2H who knows trhat version of SP). The suppression range is greater but I rather not use neighbouring splash effect with MGs but rather would make them a bit more lethal. Your thoughts?

Artur.

Re: Super snipers???
 

I think it's not so unusual to have that effectiveness in Snipers. Imagine a man, alone, undetected, with all the time to aim and shoot at the easiest target of an infantry squad...

On the other side i agree, sometimes i have the feeling that MGs are a bit "underpowered".

Re: Super snipers???
 

Artur I think the way snipers in the game should operate is that they should have fewer shots(say only 1 or 2) but they should have very good accuracy and supressive value with them. Considering the scale of the game a sniper would take a shot and then relocate so as to stay concealed. With the game being about 5 minutes a turn 2 shots would be a lot for a sniper.
As far as MG's go I think they are deadly enough...I have noticed that with this latest version they have good range and supressive value but the biggest thing is that they are hard to spot. In many of the scenarios when my troops come under long range fire I am not able to spot the firing position of the MG. The same goes for AT missles. You get hit and only get the direction the shot came from. As far as snipers go I have had them in scenarios where I have taken 3 or more shots at a unit before being able to do anything with them.
Tom

Re: Super snipers???
 

As far as snipers go, remember that someone with a "sniper rifle" weapon can be just as well your elite commando sniper, like Tom described, crawling slowly on unsuspected approach roads and taking one or two lethal shots before vanishing.

Now on the other hand, it can just as well be a low-level 'force-integral' marksman who runs along the troops and just provides a better pinpoint accuracy in one shot, commonly picking off at just every enemy, acting as yet another support weapon. As being closer to the front line he would have to shoot from closer ranges, and possibly engage alot more objectives in a short time, thus appearing (in a turn-based game) as blazing away mindlessly. You can see such guys in Soviet motor rifle platoons or in US mechanized sections (designated marksman).

Agreed, that still means that you could give your average 'high-rate' sniper somewhat less shots (lower ROF), maybe lower speed, but a terrific accuracy.
Just be careful to what kind of sniper you consider, as both types are often mixed in the same class.

Re: Super snipers???
 

i agree with plasmakrab, there is considerble difference betweeen a marksman and a sniper. the austrian army for instance has a very high purportion of marksman (there is a marksman assigned to every 'jaeger' platoon - sadly not covered in the current SP OOB) - sometimes even there is one in every squad. these however are not snipers, shooting afterall being only 1 of 6 different sniper skills.

i have seen some bizzare results however. in one scenario i did a 'heavy' sniper in a building effectivly halted and even routed 2 entire platoons of light infantry. this was prolly a 'searching' problem - sniper was too well hidden -but in RL the units would have fired blind at various targets anyway.

Re: Super snipers???
 

There are numerous examples I have read over the years of a small handful of "snipers" holding up entire companies ( or even large formations )in NW Europe in the last year(s) of WW2. Troops don't like being sniped at by unseen enemies and hearing a shot then a call for a medic then another shot and another call for a medic can and has caused advances to grind to a halt. I know that in the game *sometimes* dealing with snipers is a PITA. Sometimes in RL they are.

Don

Re: Super snipers???
 

I recall an gurkha trooper who got the VC for holding off close to a company of japanese infantry with his Lee Enfield, while being seriously wounded. He wasn't a 'sniper', just really good with his rifle and extremely brave. Many dozens of japanese became casualties of his accurate fire (and the handgrenades he kept throwing back at them). That was in the Imphal campaign in burma in '44 if I remember correctly. The japanese were dumb enough to keep trying a frontal attack on his elevated dug in position without much supportive fire.

Snipers in SP are tricky to deal with, but they only become unbalancing if used in unrealisiticly large quantities.
Don't just storm at them but supress them (or of you can't spot them, their hex) before closing in for the kill. Dropping off an infantry unit next to their hex usually reveals their presence if they fired off a couple of shots that turn. Rifles used at distance 4 or less have the best chance of taking out a sniper (at least that's the way it was in earlier versions and I assume it's still the same now).

Re: Super snipers???
 

I agree with the method of suppressing them. However I experienced that a foreign legion sniper performed well even if he was located in an open terrain hex and shot at by tanks many times. Is that realistic? I know French Foreign legion has very high morale and experience but isn't this too much?

I also agree about making more difference within the snipers. What I experienced is that even a 7 points marksman is more effective than a machine gun. Is that realistic? I really don't know...

Artur.

Re: Super snipers???
 

Tank main guns and mg's aren't all that effective against snipers so I'm not surprised. Open terrain still offers lot's of places for a single man to hide or find cover. It's not a completely flat field 50 metres across. And a 1-foot rise in terrain or obstacle of that height can give enough cover for one man. And a foreign legion sniper (or any superelite sniper) can be expected to know his hiding.

I don't like snipers because they are too powerful, I don't like them because it can get to be a drag taking them out. The occasional one in a game I don't mind, but not too many please.
I've rarely encountered an enemy sniper though doing his point cost worth of damage. But it takes an effort and certain techniques to take them out at low cost, hence the drag I mentioned cause these take time and can seriously slow down a game.

Narwan

Re: Super snipers???
 

reg. sniper stories, not only have i heard many of those too but i have been under sniper fire myself (bosnia bihac in 94) and have seen how in RL people react - basically firing in the general direction of the persumed sniper. in one particular case i was two streets away from bihac hospital, which got a lot of attention, close to an experienced BiH 2.Corps group when a couple of rounds started impacting off the sidewalk around them. the guys just started walking and shooting - from the shoulder btw - in a particular direction. after about a couple of mags a piece there didnt' seem to be any more incoming fire - although all the cordite in the air might have had something to do with it. when i asked what they were shooting at they pointed at low rise about .8k out of town, saying "well that's where i would be anyway". moral: experienced troops can deal with long-ranged snipers.

in game terms, the way to deal with unseen fire is to hit x and plaster the expected hex blindly - it would be nice (not, DRG, a must) - if the AI could do something differently. i often raise the searching ratings to compensate for this.

Re: Super snipers???
 

True, but 'dealing with' in that example probably means forcing the sniper to relocate or pack it in for the day. It's unlikely to have actually hit him.

If you do want to take him out you have to plaster his area (hex) and get some footsoldiers (preferably with rifles) close to him at the same time. These have the thnakful job of spotting him (which usually means the sniper can spot them too) and 'dispatching him to elsewhere'.

Sniper in RL tend to be very conservative with their own life, they don't take many big chances and don't go on firing till they're taken out. They tend to get out when they suspect they may have been located (which isn't the same as spotted in the game!). Sniper units in the game rarely act like that. At least not in my experience, they seem to have 'last man standing' as their motto. Which is one of the reasons I try to minimise their presence in my games. I don't think they are modelled very accurately, which is probably due to the game specifics and mechanics (for example no officers or tankcommanders, etc to specifically target).

Narwan

Re: Super snipers???
 

Narwan, actually many (if not all) units in the game go for last-man stands. The only way you can have IA-controlled forces to back off is to force them into retreat, and since snipers generally have the highest morale rating, they tend to be the last men standing (instead of running away, I mean). Now that works better with 'integrated' troop-level marksmen, once more, but the game has just been designed from the beginning to account for troops standing up to the last man or running away, and we have to deal with it. Only you, player, have the power to order backing away.

Re: Super snipers???
 

Sorry, I was referring to human vs human play, not vs the AI. It's human opponents who tend to use snipers in 'last man standing' tactics too. I've rarely if ever seen someone withdraw a located sniper and redeploy him elsewhere.

In RL snipers have a lot more leeway in what to do and how to do it than regular units. When confronted with opposition, they tend to go away. Regular units have their orders and are supposed to carry them out, not second-guess them. Well, you know what I mean.

Narwan

Re: Super snipers???
 

yes cannot imagine they hit anything much at all, however the sniping did stop - which effectivly is a mission accomplished. the only 'traditonal' way of dealing with snipers is infantry sweep, counter-sniping and arty. however if you just chose the most likely hide and blaze away you force a relocation as well.

personally i think the best way to model this is the game is to put a quite low moral on snipers.

OTOH one problem is that - unlike in the orginal SPMBT vehicles that were unbuttened when attacked had a signifcant chance of suffering 1 casulty. this was highly realistic, focing units to button up when they were in high-threat enviornments and cutting down on reaction/detection ranges. in winspmbt i have never seen this happen (e.g. a sniper taking out a tank commander, say). pitty.

Re: Super snipers???
 

a lower moral rating will usually suffice, i wonder however what would happen if there was a high rally rating at the same time - would it cancel out, or would you get that highly elusive -retreat then rally effect? would be great

Re: Super snipers???
 

Guys consider that a sniper's "freedom of movement" when trying to escape detection and remain pointed on a target, can very well go unnoticed in 50m-hexes. Same with tanks or airplanes and invisible "evasion manoeuvers".
However, consider that even with a relatively high speed (generally 6) it will be hard for a human player to relocate a sniper team under fire (or nearly so) without losing either his positional advantage or the sniper or both.

Re: Super snipers???
 

I am glad I can read so many interesting posts in this thread.
Let me add one more thing. I recently attended a lecture about the US military operation in Fallujah 2004. There it was told that snipers caused the hightest number of casualties on both sides. That says something.

Reading all the posts above I guess the best solution would be to seriously increase the price of the snipers. (Maybe also make the rout a bit sooner.) Don,Andy your thoughts.

Artur.

Re: Super snipers???
 

My feelings are that snipers are SUPPOSED to be a PITA and their cost is just fine the way they are.

The bargin basement US "sniper" with no "fire control" or "RF"
or "vision" gear is an unadjusted 12 points. If you are buying infantry that the same price as an entire squad ( if you want to check I'm looking at the following units in MOBHack
414
416
417
419
431
432

Those are just basic rifle squads that have a 12 base cost in MOBHack so all this will cost a bit more in the game but so will the sniper.

Now..... that 12 cost sniper is the low end of things. He's not really going to do much and he costs the price of a squad. Do you really think he needs to be worth more? The next sniper up the ladder costs 28 points and all he has is 5 FC and 5 RF..... hardly a terrorist and he costs more than two squads. By the time you work your way up what could be called a super sniper in the "Hvy Abn Sniper" ( unit 252 ) who has full vision gear and really IS something to worry about he costs an unadjusted 129 points. ( 155 points by the time you add in moral and experience modifiiers ) Even at 129 points that's the cost of 10 regular squads. It's nearly 13 at 155 points.

If you are betting the mortgage on the results of one game do you buy 13 squads or one two man team?

Admittedly most snipers that could be considered a PITA cost around 45-48 points. That's still 3 - 4 squads of men or, in the case of artillery.... the price of 1 US 155mm LW FH. Should ONE sniper be worth more than a 155 FH??

I'll give you a test to run. June 1970 USA vs USA ( call this a MILES test in training ) on one side by a HQ and three of the best snipers you can get for that era then in opposition buy as many "Rifle Platoon VN" as you can. You will have most likely 10 squads ( plus a HQ ). Put them all on a 40 x 40 map and let me know who wins. I'm not betting on the snipers unless they are in skilled human hands ( and that would be long shot odds )

Here something else to consider. A 1970 era US off map 155 battery costs 360 points in the game. ( 60 rounds per gun ) That gives you two platoons of 155's and 120 rounds of ammuntion. That about 20 turns of shooting. ( I used up 9 rounds per battery in my test in 3 turns ) 360 divided by 20 is 18 points per shoot. The best sniper for the era costs 42 points ( these are unadjusted base OOB costs )so for the price of just over two turns of 155 fire you can buy one (1) sniper. I'll take the 155's any day.

So no, I don't think snipers need to be more costly. What I think is players need to review their tactics for dealing with snipers

Don

Re: Super snipers???
 

OK, here's another test for those of you that think snipers are too cheap. It's a variation on the challenge I suggested in the previous email with the three top of the line snipers only this time you take three snipers and your HQ , same era ( 1970 ) on the same sized map then set the battle up so that you buy for the AI all the "Rifle Platoon VN" you can buy when the battle is set to the AI player 2 advance but with the battle set to AI P2 deploy. You will be fighting your three snipers and HQ against 23 squads and a HQ. Let me know if you think the Snipers are still too cheap. Everyone who thinks the snipers are too powerful needs to try this before replying. If I read these posts correctly those three snipers should have NO problem containing those 23 squads.

Have fun. I don't think most players could contain ten squads with those three snipers let alone the 23 their cost allows you to buy in opposition in this case

Don

Re: Super snipers???
 

Ok Ok Ok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. If the cheapest sniper is worth a squad It's ok with me. Regarding US forces I guess that is all right.:).

What I tried is 1970 green vs red. I played with them a lot recently. There a normal inf squad is 9 pts while a sniper is 5 pts. I made a scenario where a platoon of red inf went against 7 Green snipers. The scenario had a 20X20 plain map - I know it favours the snipers but of course you never put a sniper in dense terrain...

I played from both sides and won from both sides. However with the snipers it was more easy for me even though the cheap snipers were aiming awfully. The reds simply routed off the map or when they won the took serious casualties.

Artur.

Re: Super snipers???
 

For the record, I don't think snipers are too cheap. On the low end they may be (the 5 - 7 point snipers) but certainly not those with special (FC, RF and/or vision) equipment.

As I said earlier, snipers rarely do their points worth in damage to opponents. They do force you to certain tactics to deal with them. And that's the whole 'annoying' thing with snipers (not a criticism on the game model! just my feeling on snipers!), it takes relatively a lot of time and troops to take them out. If they act on their own, that's usually not that big a problem. But if you time their use right and use them in combination with other units/attacks, they can be a dangerous distraction because for example those units won't be where you really need them at that time.
Now if you take out an expensive sniper with them, the point cost of that sniper often makes up for a lot. But until you actually spot him, you don't know if it's an expensive one or a very cheap one. So those very cheap snipers may not achieve a lot in damage inflicted, but they can achieve tactical effects way beyond their 'real' value. Off course, just as with counter-sniper operations, it's not easy to pull off these stunts. But if and when you can, snipers can be a big force multiplier. Which comes (partly) from their tendency to stand firm (and be used as completely expendable, almost suicidal, units).

Narwan