Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Hi folks well one I just wanted to say YES I am still typing up my next few chapters for my game story. I still think I need the practice before I start writing a real book and I greatly enjoy writing for you guys so that story ain't gonna die anytime soon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Well on the positive side my College Writing prof. said she looks forward to seeing my name on a book some day soon so that's a moral boost for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Anyway here is a wee bit of a preview of the Icaran Star Empire from my planned book.

Brief History:
The Icaran City State was once a prosperous metropolis on the outer most tip of Greece, the Icarans themselves were a race of poets, priests and philosophers and because of this their army was nearly non-existant.
One day in the year 2,000 BC the Spartans, a society dedicated to waging warfare and who's entire male populace made up its army fell upon the outer territories of the Icarans; sweeping aside all of what little resistance the Icaran army could throw together.

At this time in Icaran history the city state was ruled by the Triumverate, a council of three "kings" and unfortunately for the war effort these three men were incompetent military commanders and so devoted to the idea that women were inferior they would not even permit the icaran female populace to take up the farming duties that the men they sent off to war could no longer perform.
After two bloody years of war and famine somewhere in the order of half the Icaran population died, the bulk of this being men, and still the Triumverate refused to allow women to perform any of the necessary tasks that the men now gone could not.

In the last days of the second year of the war, when all seemed lost one man, Alexander, who commanded the Icaran home garrison led his troops in a violent coup against the triumverate, and it is said that he personally put the heads of the triumverate on pikes and marched them through the city as a symbol of the end of the Triumverate's rule.
In a series of sweeping reforms Alexander reformed the Icaran army, women were drafted and taught to use the bow and ride horses to war while the men provided the heavy infantry forces which now carried long rectagular shields and short swords instead of the old bronze round shields and long spears. Gone also was the bronze armor that the Triumverate had issued due to it's cheap cost, this was replaced by the latest in Icaran armor, segmented iron plates that provided much more protection for Icaran warriors.

Alexander also created the first "special forces" units, made up entirely of women who proved to be exceptional shots and posessed deadly skills with short bladed daggers. Alexander named this force of women the "shadow daggers" and gave them the task to raid the Spartan supply trains and small phalanxes of Spartiate warriors.
As the shadow daggers struck throughout the the fallen territories hundreds of spartiate warriors were killed, and the morale of the Spartan army began to faulter.

In the middle of the third and final year of the war the Spartan king had grown weary of the hit and run night attacks on his army and decided to march into one final battle against the upstart Icarans whom he beleived were on the very edge of breaking.
In this final showdown the entire Spartan army and the newly formed Icaran Army met on an open field near Icara city its self. As the two armies engaged one another the Spartans found to their suprise not a broken and defeated garrison but a fresh and battle ready force which relied on mobility, cavalry and archers in support of a force of heavy infantry columns.

Before the spartans even got into range with their spears the Icaran horse archers (almost entirely women and young girls) had killed hundreds; The archers on foot had also begun raining arrows down upon the slowly moving phalanx causing massive casualties.
Alexander himself led the Icaran infantry in a brutal charge into the Spartan ranks and legend says that he led this charge even while his horse archers continued to pour arrows into the flanks and rear of the phalanxes.

The battle raged for over two hours and at the end of it the entire Spartan army had been destroyed, Icaran soldiers worked their way through the corpses and slit the throats of the Spartan wounded until not a single Spartan soldier was left alive.
Though the Icarans paid a heavy price for their victory Alexander did not end his crusade with the destruction of the Spartan army but instead marched the Icaran army against Sparta its self; liberating the Helots and adding them to the population of the fast growing Icaran territories.
During the final seige of Sparta Alexander ordered all the boys over the age of seven put to the sword as they had already been indoctinated in the Spartan way of life, though wherever his armies marched Alexander showed equal lack mercy to any of his soldiers who looted or raped in the conquered Spartan territories.

In the end the bulk of the Spartan female populace, the entire helot population and most of the young males were added to the newly formed Icaran Empire; but even this was not enough for Alexander.
Sensing the mixed fear and zeal of his people Alexander recruited still more soldiers from the newly aquired populations and for the next 30 years he continued a bloody crusade that cut a swathe through the entirety of Europe.

When Alexander was 70 he finally ended his crusades and for the first time in decades Alexander returned to Icara city. In their gratitude the people of the new Icaran Empire declared Alexander to be "Praetor Alexander the 1st" and gave him near absolute power to rule the Icaran Empire such as it was.

Alexander the 1st did not live much longer, he died only three years later of illness and his son Lysander the 1st took the throne of his father. Where his father had forged an empire through blood drenched crusades Lysander added provinces through politics and economics, he reformed the government to include a nobility responsible for the management of the far flung Icaran holdings; over his administration Lysander only launched two wars against barbarian tribes to the west and though both of these wars were long and bloody ordeals the Icaran Empire grew by almost a quarter after these lands were conquered.

Lysander the 1st also set down new codes of law and justice that would make the nobles and commoners equally answerable to the law; these changes would last throughout the entire history of the Empire with very little change.

For the next two centuries Icaran armies would march and conquer tribe after tribe, city after city until the point where the whole of Europe and much of Africa was under Icaran rule. Many would wonder how the Icaran empire managed to stay so stable through two centuries of conquests and wars, and there are those who ask why so few rebellions happened. There is no single answer to these questions. In part it was the legal system of Icara that appealed to conquered cultures, for instead of being treated as slaves or second class citizens conquered peoples were simply added to the Empire as a new province and all those who did not resist were given legal citizenship.
Icara was not above rule through fear however and the Icaran "shadow daggers" who had grown from a raiding force made up entirely of women to a powerful secret police force ensured that those who might rebel never got the chance.

In the year 1238 AD a massive Icaran fleet of some two thousand ships and an army of over a hundred and fifty thousand men and women invaded Asia. At this point in Icaran history the Icaran sciences had produced early flintlock muskets and cannons which gave the Icaran Empire a massive advantage over it's asiatic foes. For five years Icaran armies swept across Asia. The bloodiest point of the early Crusade came when the Icaran armies invaded Japan, the primitive yet determined Japanese sent wave after wave of soldier against Icaran battle lines creating massive casualties on both sides. In the end however Icaran technology won out and Japan fell before Icara, though what was left of the country was barely calling a province.

The turning point in Icaran history is when the 32nd Icaran Regiment as well as the 8th London and 17th Spartan invaded China and ran streight into the armies of the Yuan dynasty.
All three Icaran regiments were completely destroyed and their weapons stolen and replicated by the Yuan scientists. As these weapons were given to the Chinese armies the Asian Crusade took it's bloodiest turn yet.

The Icaran army and fleet conducted a fighting retreat for the next twelve years and hundreds of thousands of Icarans and Chinese died before the Icaran fleet finally withdrew, the crusade forces had suffered the first true defeat the Icaran empire had suffered, of the one hundred and fifty thousand ground troops less then one third returned to Icara, and only eight hundred of the initial two thousand ships ever saw Icaran ports again.

More importantly this failed crusade would lead to a centuries long cold war between the Icaran Empire and the newly born "Empire of the Shining Star" which had risen to power under the Yuan dynasty. The positive side to this cold war however was the vast expendeture of resources on the sciences which brought advancement on by leaps and bounds.

Many small and several large wars were fought between the two great Empires over the centuries but for the most part it was a cold war where economy and politics had more value then troops and fleets.
In the year 3832 IY (Imperial Year- 1832 AD) the cold war would take a dramatic change as the first Icaran space craft orbited the Earth, this single action would lead to a change in global politics as the ESS and the Icaran Royal Empire began a race to the stars that would last for decades.

During this time period however much of the world's population was still independent of either Empire, and these independent alliances and nations began to fear the implications of the Icarans and Asians spreading to the rest of the solar system. Entire nations became aflame with riots and civil wars as factions fought amongst themselves as political leaders fought over what should be done about this new development.

For the next one hundred years the IRE and the ESS, even many of the smaller independent nations would develope space craft capable of reaching other planets in the Sol system creating stellar Empires and even more political termoil and strife.
The Icaran Royal Empire now became the Icaran Royal Star Empire and the Icaran Royal Space Navy took control of Mars, Io, Europa, Pluto, part of Luna, Triton, Deimos, Phobos and many other moons and asteroids. The Empire of the Shining Star claimed most of what was left while colonies belonging to independent nations usually resided on massive space stations or hidden in the asteroid belt.

A wise man once said "It is human to be curious" well unfortunately it is also human to seek struggle and competition with our neighbors; and shortly after the first colonies were established the First Space War occured in the year 1925 when Icaran Spacecraft on a deep range patrol encountered ESS spaceships doing the same. The battle that followed resulted in the destruction of both sides, only one Icaran scout managed to limp back to its port and report what had occured, and of course war quickly followed.

The battles for Mars, Venus and Jupiter station are remembered as the first time in human history where full scale space fleets met each other in battle and though they were using primitive megaton level nuclear missiles, and early slug throwing cannons the battles can be described as nothing less then slaughter, dozens of space craft were destroyed in these battles, and thousands of spacers died.
The ground wars for Mars and Venus both claimed millions of lives as Icarans, ESS and Independents struggled for control of these colonies.

The first space war ended with the third battle of Luna where a combined fourty ship Icaran space fleet defeated the remnants of the Oceanan space fleet and proceeded to land ground troops on the ESS and Oceanan Lunar colonies, capturing both.

The treaty that was signed between Icara and the ESS following this war also ended the centuries long cold war between these two powerful Empires.

Unfortunately in 3423 IY a madman named Adolf Hitler rose to power in the Germania province of Icara, for five years he secretly built a small space fleet and appropriated resources to create an army and ocean navy as well. In 3428 the Nazi Reichsflotte launched a nuclear holocuast upon the Lunar colonies depopulating Luna in less then five hours and killing over two million people in the process.

This "Nazi Rebellion" as it is known in history lasted only two years as the full military might of Icara swung into action against the Germania province laying waste to entire cities and slaughtering all who apposed the Icaran reocupation forces. In the year 3430 Hitler himself was hung by Icaran General George Marshall who had replaced General Patton whom died leading the assault on the Rhine, along with almost all of the 36th York armored regiment.

For the next hundred years Icara and the ESS conquered many independent nations; growing even more powerful. Unfortunately for both of these Empires a "United Nations" was formed by many of the more powerful independent nations, and in the year 3562 this United Nations launched a devestating nuclear attack on both the Icaran Empire and the ESS killing tens of millions in a matter of hours.

In space the Icaran Royal fleet and the ESS fleet were almost entirely destroyed by suprise attacks launched by UN fleets which had been built in secret in the asteroid belt. This bloody and devestating attack forced the Icarans and Asians into an alliance of survival and for the next year and a half they would fight a losing war to preserve their nuclear ravaged Empires.

In the end however the last remnants of the Icaran and Asian militaries rallied for one last battle, a battle designed not to win the war but to simply buy time for the two billion Icaran and Asian evacuees that would be leaving Sol in massive colony ships that would keep them in stasis until they arrived at a system with inhabitable planets.

This battle is known by Icara as "The Last March", every last ship soldier and plane the Icarans and ESS had was launched against the overwhelming UN forces on earth and in space.

The remnants of the space fleets the two once great Empires surrounded the 300 ship evacuation fleet and fought a running battle against the UN space forces until something no one could ever have predicted occured.

Through a random act of fate the combined Icara/ESS fleets hit a spacial anomoly at just the right angle to allow passage through without destroying the fleet, though many of the warships who were accelerating much faster and at much different angles then the transports were lost.

The UN forces who attempted to pursue the Icaran/ESS fleet were not as fortunate however and none made it through this anomoly intact.

The new system that the Icaran/ESS fleet entered was later named Norvor by Astrogrophers and it had two inhabitable worlds, Icara and Brandenburg.
Icara was colonized as the name suggests by the bulk of the combined fleet, however Brandenburg was colonized by five million Asian colonists due to the damage done to their ships engines prventing them from changing course.

Only one hundred years after the new colonization the Icaran Empire and the ESS stood as a united Empire for the first time in history, though many of the Asians would still not intermarry with Icarans due to cultural moores. The new Icaran Royal Empire set forth into the stars once again and though many wars followed the Icaran power grew and any xeno race that they encountered swiftly fell into slavery or extinction.

Three thousand years of colonization and warfare later the Icaran Empire now stands as the most powerful Empire in history with over four million worlds and hundreds of sphereworlds with trillions upon trillions of human beings answering to the Praetor and the nobility. And yet despite the Empire's power there are still threats to our very survival both external and internal, explorers continue to discover new worlds and new species. Even human worlds are still being discovered and though many have reverted to barbarism others have formed zieable stellar Empires of their own.

Xeno Empires also threaten the existance of mankind as they seek to purge the galaxy of human life for reasons no human can fathom and despite her power Icara must still fight for its very survival against threats their ancestors could never even dream of in their most terrifying nightmares.

(some short tech descrriptions to follow)

Anyway for the time being that's the basic summery of my Icaran Empire's history, the first book I write will deal with the early space age and reveal the previous history.

God willing that sells well the sequal will deal with Icara at roughly the time that is in the game, while the third book and any sequals will deal with the Empire at it's height/most endangered.

What do you guys think so far?

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Starhawk writes: "...my College Writing prof. said she looks forward to seeing my name on a book some day soon..."

I wouldn't get a swelled head over that; I'm sure she says it to all her future best-selling authors. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Not a bad read, but it needs a good editor, e.g. misspellings: "triumvirate", "nonexistent", "falter", etc. The term "outer most tip of Greece" should perhaps be replaced by something more directional, e.g. southernmost, easternmost, or something like that.

This is clearly an alternate history, but it's not clear how far back it diverges from actual events. For example, I've read that Sparta didn't take on its distinctive militaristic character until the time of the (mythical?) king's advisor Lycurgus in the early Ninth Century BC.

I'm hazy on dates for the Bronze Age in Greece, but I think iron wasn't used on a large scale until well after 1,000 BC. Starhawk's tale of horse archers & such against the Spartans is quite interesting. I've been reading Kagan's book about the Peloponnesian War, 431-404 BC. In that period I gather that combined-arms forces of hoplites, cavalry, skirmishers, and missile troops generally outperformed armies based mainly on the heavily armed and armored hoplites alone.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Way to go Starhawk... And what Hunpecked said is spot on too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Hmm well Hunpecked good points about the spelling, beleive it or not I actually looked up Triumvirate right before typing it heh. Well yeah the other stuff is hiccups too I'd pay a LOT more attention for a final draft of the history.

As far as where their history and ours diverge, it goes all the way back to pre-history as you can see by the starting date of 2,000 BC and Sparta as far as I read was always rather warlike which is how they took so many slaves. I just bumped up their "time table" for full scale conversion to the warlike Sparta of later centuries.

The reason for this draft I did not give a direction of Icara yet is because honestly I was not quite sure where to put it just yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

As far as the Iron goes, funny thing is some people think that some culture's actually used primitive iron during the bronze age, I mean some folks actually invented a battery during the bronze age (can't remember whether it was a Greek or an Egyptian).
I just made it that the Icarans embraced the sciences and primitive iron instead of taking the usual ancient world approach to new things. Also I kind of heard while watching the history channel that the discovery of Iron was more or less an accident, so the Icarans just got lucky faster http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

The Icaran female cavalry archers are loosely based on this one Japanese warlord who created a cavalry raiding corps entirely of women. The main logic behind this for him was that:
A) Women are lighter and thus the horses can move faster, longer.
B)He was kind of running out of men because well let's face it Japan was pretty much just a warzone for a good long while.

Oh and on the advice of other sci-fi writers they said I should change my weapon yeilds from actual power (i.e how many terrawatts) into tonnage yields. I.E how many gigaton yield per weapon and let people figure out watts and whatnot from that.

One guy said "It's easier for most people to work gigaton back to power; rather then power to gigaton. So if you just give them the end result they can work their way back to how much power is required to get it."
I figure I can work with that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Some more thoughts on the early Icaran society described by Starhawk:

In an era of squabbling city-states I would expect even a peaceful and intellectual state to have an army at least comparable to its neighbors'. In fact, I would say such an army would be a prerequisite for the establishment of a prosperous culture; otherwise it's too tempting a target for its poorer, more warlike neighbors. It's also more difficult to expand a peacetime army in an emergency without a significant cadre of trained, experienced soldiers and a pre-existing military infrastructure. A prosperous state could fill in with mercenaries, of course, but the money would eventually run out.

I like the idea of starting a "future" AAR far in the past. On the other hand, it's a lot of work to rewrite thousands of years of history convincingly, even as an overview. In addition, when writing the "real" story, the author constantly has to keep in mind that most of the history we take for granted probably never happened in his fictional universe.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Hunpecked you bring up several good points, however the main point of them having such a poor quality army is because the Triumverate were rather corrupt and incompitent at their jobs which is why nearly half the Icaran populace was wiped out in the war. They also did suffer famine because of how fast they needed to raise an army, which also led in large part to the rapid defeat of Icaran armies.

The main point about rewriting thousands of years of history is also very good but the Icarans must have that history going back millenia or else it wouldn't really make sense to have a culture like Icara just sort of pop up. Any tips or suggestions you might have would be more then welcome of course.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Interesting certainly and very comprehensive.

A couple of points though:
** Too many secretly built fleets. It's hard enough to hide surface ships from satellites, how are you going to hide not just one ship but a fleet load? This particularly applies to the Nazi rebellion, but also the UN Fleet. The asteroid belt isn't that dense so you can't hide much there.

** Everyone seems far too welcoming of the Icarans. I don't care how nice the laws are, or that I'm a full 'member' of the Empire. My countries being invaded damn it, I'm joining the resistance and death to the invader.! This is a fairly common response to invasion.

** Centuries long warfare and then the ESS just roll over and get lead by Icarans? Like the previous point, far too nice.

** Full marks to the Yuan, somone hands you something you've never seen (A flintlock), replicate it, mass produce it and train people to use it all ultra quickly. Amazing! Metallurgy and precision engineering just like that. The flintlock is 3rd/4th generation firearm and not simple, hell its a 1600s weapon. You aren't going to reverse engineer it easily or quickly.

One technical point, Bronze (being an alloy) was stronger and more expensive than Iron. The reason the Iron age followed the Bronze age is that with cheap Iron you could make lots of tools, etc that you wouldn't use expensive bronze for. As an example Roman officers had Bronze swords while soldiers had cheap Iron swords.

Still it's very ambitious and a fleshed out back story helps a great deal I always think. Especially if your planning a series of books.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Hey El-Phil beleive it or not it's good to hear from you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Anyway seriously on to your points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Point 1: The Nazi's are going to have had underground facilities to build their ships, remember this is early space age and starships of the era were "tiny".

And with modern stealth you can hide a surface ship from a satelite (Sea Shadow I beleive is the name of the new stealth ship) and there are plans for entire warships built around Sea Shadow tech.

Assuming the Icaranverse is a few centuries ahead of us their stealth is probobly pretty good.


Point about the UN fleet, you do realize how BIG a solar system is right? The Icarans though powerful were hardly everywhere and considering in this point in history it still took months for a ship to travel from planet to planet it would actually be pretty easy to hide a few dozen relatively small ships in the asteroid belt.

These are not the multi hundred ship kilometer+ sized ships we see later the Icaran navy was at best a hundred and fifty ships most of which were only a few hundred feet long.

Point 2: Well with secret police (I.e shadow daggers) and a government that is not above taking out entire rebellious elements and slaughtering them we are looking at a situation where it becomes a "better red then dead" situation. An iron fist hidden in a velvet glove, the Icarans would treat you as a full citizen if you complied or kill you if you didn't.

Look at Rome they were not forever at war with their newly added provinces, though they did deal with "minor" raids and border skirmishes throuhgout their history. No doubt Icara would deal with the same but that's not really worth mentioning with an Imperial scholar describing millenia past events.

Point 3: It was after both sides had been nuked and were getting their asses handed to them left and right (if you'll pardon my expression). It was simple survival they still did not much like or trust one another.

And after being shot into a foreign star system where the bulk of the populace landed on Icara (and were Icaran) the ESS holdouts still took a century to integrate and even afterwards we see a streak of defiance in that they have distinctly asian names and culture and also often refuse to intermarry with the "Icaran race". But sheer numbers is on the side of the Icarans as is economic strength and military power, and after heading into the stars once again they found aliens and other human empires that would be more then happy to watch them burn (or in the case of some aliens more then happy to EAT them).

So it is simple survival again, rebel against Icara maybe succeed but get eaten by an alien or absorbed by a human Empire who didn't much like your ancestors Or join Icara and live to reap the rewards.

Kind of like Russia and the US after the Soviet collapsed Russia still doesn't much LIKE us and we don't much like them but we kind of need one another for the moment.

And if you notice a little bit the Asian populace in a good part is still rather distinctive and it's own small "Empire" within the Icaran Empire. The bulk of Brandenburg, the entirety of Sparta and many other worlds are almost entirely "asiatic" in heritage. But after centuries the two cultures being forced to rely on one another have by and large merged into the single Icaran Empire.

Point 4: The Chinese have always been adept at scientific adaptation and development, hell the Japanese who were non-to bright in any comparison to the west or China figured out how to replicate firearms on their own in rather short order. The Chinese already had a basic understanding of gunpowder and rockets, and in fact were well on their way to producing firearms of their own almost in parallel to the west so if you introduce hundreds of captured Icaran weapons and I have no doubt a culture that felt threatened with it's survival would replicate it quickly.

As far as training large numbers of men the Chinese always did have the ability to raise vast armies (I beleive the Qin had over 400,000 men) and with muskets you don't much need training, which is why they were so great. Add to that the Yuan went on their own little bender of conquest and they would expand their own manpower base after a few decades.

I didn't say their replicated firearms were as good either, just copies but given Chinese population vs an invading army that had already been blooded in previous wars and overwhelming numbers of slightly inferior quality beat out Icaran tech.

Point 5: Thanks I'll fix that ASAP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Stealth is not invisible. This is a very important point, tiny RCS (Radar Cross Section) is just that. Tiny, but still there. You just have to get closer to find/track the stealthy object. For an object lesson ask the F-117 crew shot down in the Balkans. Still, clever tech (but it will bite you later)

People would notice the big convoys traipsing off into the asteriod belt, sure the solar system is big but not that big. Sure you mine asteroids but you need a crew. And lots of materials you aren't going to get from asteroids. So you need freighters, which all the clever Icaran sensors are going to pick up. (Told you it would bite you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif)

If your keeping ESS and Icara still not happy (or grudging but with occasional clashes) that works alot more for me.

A flintlock is complex, as in massively so. The first mass production was called 'Armoury practice' because you needed standardised parts to build and repair at any speed. The tolerances and metallurgy needed was the results of decades, even centuries, of poking and improvement of match/wheel lock rifles. It's not just gunpowder, it's not even the metal working technology, it's the skills and equipment.

Resistance to foreign occupiers is almost human nature, unless the current regime is hated, even then the occupiers aren't liked. Rome was the lightest of imperial goverments. Pay us a levy and don't attack our troops. That was about it. The fringe benefits (roads, infrastructure in general, etc) were also great. They still weren't liked. And like all empires it declined and fell to paraphrase Gibbon. So an empire lasting millenia, that didn't face major rebellions does seem odd.

Finally, because I like to end on a joke, The underground Nazi base. So they'd be the the hollow earth Nazis not the space Nazis based on the dark side of the moon? It is very sci-fi cliche you must admit.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Point 1: Well in regards to stealth, it would be hard to know where the resources going to build the ships are actually going and what they are doing, you may SUSPECT what they are doing but you'll never know for sure until they do something.

Point 2: Well as I already said the Icarans during this time were no where near as advanced as they are later, at this point their best sensor tech was Lidar which does not have great range and is relatively easily interfered with. Plus remember the Icarans mainly held the inner most system which means they didn't do much or have many resources in the outter system so if the UN had a colony on one of the outer worlds and simply sent "colonists" they could disguise crew movements.

Point 3: Yep Asians and Icarans still have some tension, although it's less so in those Asians recruited into the armed forces and Fedsec since they are given intensive background and "purity" checks before being allowed to join. (Purity in this case does not refer to race but instead family lineage and loyalty, so basically if your family shows signs of disloyalty your not permited to join the armed forces)
One of the reasons the Spartans (though asian) are some of the toughest and most loyal defenders of the Icaran Empire is in part because they see it as their duty to protect mankind moreso then Icara it's self. Though of course as in any Empire you have your diehard absolute loyalists to the Empire (and a great many in fact).

Point 4: Resistance to foreign powers is human nature yes, but after a generation or so that resistance would either come to an end or there would be none left to resist. Remember the Icarans took nearly a thousand years to expand to control roughly 1/4 of the globe, that's actually a long "Foundation" time for an Empire the size of the British empire and more then enough time to secure provinces that may be more likely to fight.

Well the propoganda value of calling rebellions "minor" is pretty obvious I'd think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Of course there were rebellions and these were brutally supressed by the Icaran armies.
I mean note during the "Minor" Nazi rebellion Whole Cities were blown to hell by Icaran forces. During it's earliest history Icara was in fact more brutal to traitors then even the Roman Empire which either scared people into being subserviant or brought those who would fight out as they rebelled or resisted.

Point 5: I probobly misworded my statement sorry. The Chinese in this timeframe (Icara's not ours) were already developing firearms in Parallel to the west, they knew how to make guns just not anything they saw fit to put into mass production or use. Just like the real Chinese they tended to be a little stuck in their ways as in "If a sword works why buy a gun?" until they got hit with Icaran guns.
They captured said guns and copied them as best they could, but they still had THOUSANDS of Icaran flintlocks after defeating even a single regiment and they decided to copy them as best they could.
I'll probobly say they had wheel or matchlocks for the most part since you are right Flintlocks are hard as all get out to make. But they still would have had enough Icaran guns to turn around on the Icarans, and a musket ball is a musket ball so that wouldn't be hard to make ammunition.
Granted they'd have a lot fewer cannons as an artillery crew is likely to spike their gun and run for it if they have to.

LOL Well since the real world Nazis loved hiding stuff underground I assume their counterparts in the Icaranverse would use pretty similar tactics for hiding their own rebellious activities http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif And besides that controlling the dark side of the moon woulda been great till they nuked it lol

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Very interesting discussion between El_Phil and Starhawk. Some more comments:

The "weak" Icaran army: Ah, now I get it. The army was a basically sound institution in temporary decline because of neglect and mismanagement. The resulting opportunity was just too good for the Spartans to pass up.

Firearms: I agree with El_Phil on the difficulty of adopting a new weapons technology. The whole process should go a lot faster, however, if the importer can capture/bribe the needed experts and/or buy sufficient weapons from smugglers or neutral parties while building up its own infrastructure.

Easy conquests: I can think of one way an enemy state could seemingly collapse after a long resistance. Suppose the Icarans developed extensive and sophisticated subversion, propaganda, and "black ops" capabilities. When the effects of propaganda, bribes, blackmail, assassination, sabotage, etc. reach the "tipping point", resistance could collapse in a relatively short time. Of course the Icarans would also have to develop effective assimilation techniques or, as El_Phil points out, their new "assets" would be more like ticking time bombs.

Decline and fall: El_Phil also has a good point about the long span of the Icaran Empire; such an empire is unique in human history. Egypt, Macedon, Rome, Mongolia, Spain, Turkey, and England built great empires, but in the end they were all temporary. Various combinations of internal decay, rebellion, and outside pressure brought them all down eventually. The Icaran empire has to have a character not found in these other states, a character that's flexible enough to adapt to changing circumstances but durable enough to last millenia. As I recall, Starhawk has written about advanced education/indoctrination techniques and the option of "removing" an ineffective Praetor in the "modern" Icaran empire, which is a fair start.

Iron: I browsed around the web a bit, and found sites confirming El_Phil's data on iron's drawbacks compared to bronze. There is speculation that iron finally supplanted bronze in the Med mainly because of some kind of disruption of the tin trade, making bronze almost unobtainable.

The story might make sense if the Icarans had developed steel, but that would require substantial advances in smelting and metalworking. Perhaps the inventive Icarans had been playing with steel for some years as a curiosity (its military potential overlooked by the Triumvirate), and only turned to it in earnest out of desperation.

Alternatively, maybe the Icarans' armor advance was in design rather than material. I know little about armor, but I understand the Romans wore mail instead of the Greek hoplite breastplate. I gather mail is lighter than plate armor, so perhaps that would give the Icaran infantry the edge on their opponents. However, as I recall one disadvantage of mail is the labor required to make it.

Any armor experts on the forum?

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Well it all hangs together a bit more now, this is a good thing. As longs as its a nice propaganda history, or better 'Approved' history. I think that fits, a nice "Historically clarified" official history, very Icaran I think.

However, you don't know your fictional Nazis and this can be a crippling problem. There are three main types, Jungle, Hollow Earth and Space.
1. Jungle. Fleeing to Brazil/Colombia/The Amazon this group have the simple aim of cloning Hitler. Or, if they're lucky, growing a new body to implant their 'Hitler brain in a jar' they smuggled out of Berlin. Using evil genetics and much manical laughter they hide away and generally aren't much of a threat.
2. Hollow Earth. Following maps this group ran to the North Pole, found the hole and climbed inside the hollow earth. Once inside they produced a series of elaborate machines designed to make the earth appear not hollow to seismologists. With this done they settled back to control world affairs with their vast wealth. The source of this wealth is mysterious, perhaps lava mines, perhaps they found a lost world inside the hollow earth (ala Doug McClure), who knows?
3. Space. Fleeing on a V4 rocket a vast evil base was established on the dark side of the moon. This group contained most of the mad scientists who are devoted to making giant super weapons to threaten Earth with, hence why their existence was hushed up by both the US and Russia. In between building super lasers their hobbies include treaties with Aliens, conspiracies and plotting elaborate revenge on the Hollow Earth Nazis, because they got the far better deal.

For you see all three groups dislike each other and want to destroy the other two. Should they ever work together we area all surely doomed. Doomed do you here? Doomed!

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Useable steel is clever metalurgy, far beyond anything involved in Bronze. The main clever factor is the carbon level, get that wrong and you get horribly brittle steel, or no real advantage. You reforge iron several times and it gets stronger though, but not massively so.

In short the irons you'd be producing are going to be horrible to work with as well as being much more expensive in both fuel and labour.

If the Icarans can pull a blast furnace out of somewhere (just a really huge and very hot bellows forge) and kick out some cast iron, take part of that, heat it in air a great deal to get wrought iron and then mix the cast and wrough together they might get steel. Or a horrible mess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I can't think of any other possible way to get decent steels that early though. Of course just because its possible, doesn't mean it's plausible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

You should get David Gervais to do the art work for you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Regarding the army: Yeah you've got it now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif The army was essentially a sound force except for that it was neglected by a poor government.

Re: Firearms, like I said I will change it so that the Yuan basically just kept the guns from any Icaran soldiers they killed. Then replicated older more primitive firearms and relied on their massed numbers to win the war for them.

Re: Easy conquests, you pretty much got the Idea Hunpecked, Icara used its military might to conquer a territory and then its political might to secure it. Enough bribes/assassinations and purifications and after a while the resistance fades into nothingness.

RE: Rise and Fall, well the main reason Macedon fell is lack of an heir, Rome fell because of its own grotesque decadance and the careless spending of massive ammounts of hard cash that could only be replaced via conquest added to political corruption.

Icara is different from these Empires in many ways:

1. They consider their Praetor a living saint chosen by God himself, and unlike Romans they do not consider the Praetor something replaceable in the political sense (Basically the Praetor's family has no competition for the position).
The Praetorian family is not inbred and is in fact strictly monitored by family historians to ensure that this never becomes an issue, the good thing here is also that since the females can not ever become Praetor and only the eldest daughter or sister of the Praetor can give birth to an heir if the Praetanii (Praetor's wife) can not, none of his male relatives count as heirs unless they are eldest Nephew or Eldest grandson.
There are very few cases in history of corrupt Praetors and their degenerate eldest heirs running into "accidents" within a short period of time, however there is always a clear line of succession.

2. The Icaran Empire is a much more "friendly" appearing Empire in that they did not ever take human slaves, and in fact liberated tens of thousands of slaves from other Empires as they conquered their way across the globe which allows them to potray themselves somewhat saintly even in a primitive society.

3. Any traitor to the Empire is not simply seen as a traitor by the people but as a Heretic because they betrayed not simply a man made Empire, but they betrayed the God given Rule of the Praetor. This added fire of hatred toward traitors is a good tool to keep people loyal because heretics suffer very unpleasent deaths as do any of their family that show the same inclination. (This is early Empire by time we reach the space age and beyond though traitors are still seen as heretics they are generally either executed alone (I.e their entire family isn't killed) or banished to the frontiers. Though banishment is in and of its self a near death sentence depending on what the current "frontier" happens to be.

4. The Icarans have in fact evolved slowly on a "visible" level for most of their traditions remain the same as they were for millenia, however they do adapt and modernize and though by our standards the modern Empire is "harsh" it is a varitable pussycat compared to Early Imperial history. Hell the First Icaran Crusade led to more people being executed after the fighting then died during, and though this Crusade is seen as the first step towards Empire it is also seen as a tragic period for Icara.

5. Icaran children are raised in a rather militarized education system that raises them to respect and idealize not "The State" but instead "The Community", self denial for the good of all and a level of community awareness we only wish modern citizens of the modern world had. Don't take this to assume Icarans are drones because overall they are actually proudly individualistic, it is just that they are raised by their parents and their school system to beleive that the good of others is more important then themselves.


Add to this Icara forbade all forms of wellfare back in the early 1590s IY and instead instituted a forced work ethic where if you can't find a job by time you reach a certain age the government gives you one. (And you don't get to pick and choose) In turn however you do receive fair pay and labor hours. This plus the fact that Icara gives enough technology only ot enhance human workers ability to produce goods (and not to replace humans themselves) and you have virtually zero unemployment.
Those who are unemployed out of any reason beyond mental or physical inability are seen as "draggers" and looked down upon by virtually all Icarans.

6. Icara has actually "fallen" twice and had to completely reform it's society, The Icaran Principality was replaced by the Icaran Empire after the Triumverate was overthrown. And the second time after the UN (Later to be known as Sol Coalition) drove Icara and the ESS out of Sol the Icaran Empire was replaced by the Icaran Royal Empire with the merged ESS populace and culture influencing Icaran development.
The Icarans however are remarkably stubborn people and very traditionalist which helped greatly in ensuring that some form of Icara survived long enough to grow again.

7. The final Major difference in Icaran society is that the nobility is as answerable to the law as an average citizen, Nobles don't get "privilage" in any way except the fact that they are usually pretty wealthy and the amount of authority they have within their province.
Politically corrupt or cruel nobles have been removed by the Military on more then one occasion throughout history and many more have been executed for causing needless Icaran deaths.

Even if a Noble decided they would rebel it would be incredibly difficult for them to gain any support, much less from the military. And if they did manage to gain enough support to pull for independence the full might of Icara's available forces will be dropped on their heads shortly there after.

The only noble who ever got close to killing the Praetor led an army of some 25,000 people in the year 1150 IY but this army was butchered to the last man and woman by the "Praetor's Own" and local army regiments, even average citizens swarmed over the traitors and almost 8,000 Icaran civilians died on the blades of the traitor's army. Not only was this noble executed but every single male in his family was drawn and quartered and every woman and girl rendered baron. (As I said Early Imperial history was Brutal and is not often discussed by modern Icarans)

Icara managed to ride out these rough times and eventually became a society that learned moderation in it's responses, though of course by modern US standards they are still brutal and harsh.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

So we have divine right of kings (saintly, virtualy un-questionable and un-replaceable leader. You get rid of one his son takes over) and communism (work or we kill you, bad wages for all as you can't afford good wages for all, work for the 'greater good'). And a theocracy (heretics if you disagree.)

Frankly that makes it seem less likely they'd last till next week, let alone thousands of years!

Civil wars have been fought over the divine right of kings. The kings lose. Almost every time. Power does corrupt and it only takes one bad absolute monarch to lose a kingdom.

You have a highly millitarised and religious society that believe in the greater good. Recipe for disaster and very successfull rebellions. Once someone starts a revolt the army units sent to crush it are going to think 'Hey they have a point, the best thing for society would to be to kill this Praetor, he's [censored].' and join in. The community is more important than the state or their lives.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Who said bad wages for all? They have a good economic base and pay not unlike what your average yank would have. It's just that they don't give you a choice if you have no job and can't find employment by yourself they find a job for you.
It's basically just career placement without the option of you going "Well fast food isn't my thing" they go "Well it is until you get a better job".

They don't kill you either you just get treated like a second class citizen if you are unemployed, and uh if you haven't noticed that's pretty much how we look at the unemployed today the only difference is they actually TRY to give you a chance at getting a job where our government goes "Want welfare?".

Communism has nothing to do with their government or economy as the government does not own any corporations much less control the overall economy, it does force people into the workforce if they are capable but that just removes the issue of useless money sucking people who give nothing back.


They are far from communist and have a free market not unlike that of the modern Western powers.

LOL one of the reason "Divine right" suffered problems is because there were always soooo many people who could contend for the throne, Icara eliminated that problem.


As far as your second paragraph goes actually your theory is flawed, the average Icaran citizen would never think of killing the Praetor as they have been raised from childhood to beleive in his sainthood and most people wouldn't go kill a saint http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The "Shadow daggers" who are the only ones who have ever killed Praetor's are not exactly "average" Icarans and are raised as a seperate society that is taught justice and how to properly police the Nobles and the Praetor should they ever have to. This was actually instituted by the fourth Icaran Praetor who saw it as a necessar step for Icara's survival for the very reason you stated One bad monarch allowed to rule for life can destroy the Empire.
So if he has an "accident" before he can do serious damage, and a suitable heir can be selected then you preserve the peace. (And just so you know the Shadow daggers always have to have a damn good reason for killing any noble much less the Praetor and can't do it like the Praetorian Guard of Rome did)

They are not "militarized" in the sense you seem to think, their school system is pretty similar to a military academy in that it emphasizes "units" "squads" and community. Plus loyalty to "The Community" over that of personal goals.

And since the Praetor is pretty much the head of "The Community" it would be detrimental to kill him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Like I said El_Phil the Icaran society has evolved along lines totally different then most human societies and having a population that is raised to work, compete and be absolutely Loyal and faithful is actually a PLUS to running a government.

Oh and religious does not= recipe for disaster if anything it might strengthen the sense of community and loyalty, especially in that there are several religions legal within Icaran borders. But I don't want to start an argument over the virtue of religion so I'll leave it at that.

[edit]Oh I also realize I did not answer to your part of "One absolute monarch" well in this sense the Icaran Praetor is not "absolute" as there is a nobility in place to run the provincial affairs of Empire. And in the latter Royal Empire the Icaran nobles can go years or even decades without hearing much from the government beyond recruitment and resource needs of the Empire.
The Praetor decides the overall course of the Empire and can set policy however it is the duty of the Nobles to carry out said policies and orders.

I have not fully figured out how to properly explain the Icaran empire as it is a totally unique form of government but there are enough checks and balances in place to ensure no one man can cause the Entire empire to go to hell.[/edit]

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

I don't care how good your economy is, you aren't paying everyone well. Someone, somewhere is getting shafted. Of course if that's somone outside your country, that's OK. But someone gets exploited.

So you've got lots of goverment created jobs... Hmmm burecratic goodness, which are going to be work creation pure and simple. Things that don't need doing, but get done to give people jobs. There are only so many roads you can build and so on. This gets pricey very quickly, especially if its a 'good' wage.

The problem with divine right was "Why the hell does that guy run the country just because he was born to it?" So there are nobles helping? Wonderful! "Why does that bunch of guys run the country, just because they're born to it?"

Your counter argument is wrong, the second easiest way to become a saint is to be martyred. People have regularly killed saint like people. So unless none of the Icarans have any free will or independent thought they will resist goverment brain washing. Which is what they seem to do, raise 'em to believe this and nothing else.

Finally if your main aim is the community then just because someones the head, doesn't mean killing them wouldn't be good. If you say 'Everyone's subject to laws, except the boss' that's just going to piss people off more.

An unelected hereditary quasi-religious absolute and un-questionable leader. Possibly the worst sort of goverment I can imagine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Point 1: Well yeah actually you got it right on the nose someone OUTSIDE the empire is being exploited economically http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Not Icarans.

Point 2: Well think of it like this fastfood companies have VAST turnover because no one wants to work there for long, and many of these people end up unemployed for quite a while (and I've met two that just went on wellfare for a good long while because nothing "suited them") the Icaran government basically says "No way in hell your quiting that fast food job until you get a better one lined up and prove it." they also don't give out wellfare so slobs can sit on their butts at home.

Think about how many wellfare people suck up cash in the US and don't do anything worthwhile in return (not counting those who literally can't work), instead of getting paid to sit on their butts and drink beer the Icarans only pay them when they are doing something productive for the Empire.

It actually creates economic growth because not only are you increasing productivity but you are increasing the amount of people who can buy goods thus increasing both supply and demand at the same time.

A "good wage" doesn't mean white collar, they do have minimum wage jobs yah know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And the government doesn't pay them the company the government sent them to does just like a modern company.

The problem with your argument over "Divine Right" is that Icarans have been raised for litterally GENERATIONS to beleive in this process, it's in their very "nature" to have a Praetor and it's hard if not impossible for them to imagine another form of government that could work.
Just like when you walk up to a guy who's from a democratic government and he can't imagine living in any other form of government.

Essentially Icarans are allowed to live their lives freely as long as they violate no laws and are productive citizens so why should they even question the status quo?
A generally content and well treated and cared for population that feels like their government is not above the law (which as I stated many times the Praetor and Nobility aren't) and is generally watching out for their well being has no reason to rebel just for the sake of it.

Hell you know how many people in America right after the Revolution wanted to establish a Monarchy?

The Icaranverse never had a "Democratic" revolution that succeded or if it did it turned into a bloodbath so Democracy to an Icaran or voting for leaders to an Icaran is as alien as having a Praetorship and Nobility is to us.

The point I'm trying to make El-Phil is history for them did not bring about the call for democracy or republic until long after the Icaran Empire left the sol system and by then no Icarans were around to think about "Hmm Democracy?"

Our idea of sainthood btw requires someone to be dead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Theirs does not so your argument there is flawed.

El_Phil you have grown up in a society where "Free will" generally means the right to question everything everyone else does and then moan about it as much as you want if you want or praise it as much as you want if you want.

Icarans grew up in a world where free will means you get to live your life for the most part as you see fit except that you follow a government that you were raised to beleive in and follow and defend.

Look at it this way the average Icaran is better educated then the average American, Canadian or Japanese, they always have the option of finding a job (even if it means joining the military)and they know that unless the seriously screw up and break the law they won't even have to worry about the government beyond paying taxes and possibly being drafted in times of war.

They aren't brutally opressed in every facet of life (unless they rebel and I doubt the US would take kindly to rebels either) they generally get to go where they want within their province (they do require passports to cross into other provinces) and do what they want.
They even have a freedom of religion (as long as it is one of the legal ones which are not state regulated) and in some extent freedom of press.

The average Icaran would feel safe because crime is punished with absolutely no appeal, and their police are better equipped and better trained then any we could match. Thus their streets are safe.
Anyone who even kidnaps a child (unless it is a parent and for rare circumstances) is hung in public so people aren't as afraid of letting their children play outside.

You don't seem to realize El_Phil that life inside the Empire is fairly good by our standards, so they don't have many of the freedom's we do but you can't miss what you never had in the first place can you? Especially when you're entire culture beleives that those freedoms are dangerous.

And there is nothing wrong with a culture that emphasizes community good over personal greed and self interest. Of course they compete with one another in the work place and in sports and the like but when it comes to the important stuff they are there for one another and they know they can count on their neighbors.

You automatically seem to assume that there are things like "thought police" roaming the streets beating people up and this simply isn't so.


And when it comes down to your other arguments again it's from the point of someone raised in a culture where we elect people and still wonder why the hell they are in charge lol I mean you know how many people VOTE for a politico and then turn around and go "Who put them in charge?"

I'm sure there would be Icarans wondering "Why are they in charge?" but they are the population that would do that even if they had elected the folks in the first place.

Oh and BTW most Nobles are not "born" to position most of the time they are selected by the Praetor and the Five High Lords (who are the only nobles born to rank). There ARE nobles born to rank but only when it is a family trait to excel in that given position.

In fact one of the reasons the Empire does absorb other countries relatively easily is that it selects the least rebelious leaders of that nation and makes them the local government, which has caused rebellions but has for the most part led people to be more peaceful in transition because it is someone they already know and trust.


Of course after 6,000 years of existance there have been dozens of rebellions, riots and border wars but for the most part the average Icaran is loyal because they have no reason not to be, and after a generation or so has passed even "new provinces" would start to see the major benefits of being a part of Icara and would likely be willing to go with the flow.

I mean El_Phil the idea of anything BUT a heredetary rulership is relatively newborn to THIS world, and theirs has had none of the major historic events that even got our ancestors thinking of true democracy and republic.

I mean I hate to break it to you but not even America rebelled because of the British Monarchy they rebelled because they were a pampered pet that got told they'd need to start paying taxes on par with the rest of England and they didn't like it. lol

"An unelected hereditary quasi-religious absolute and un-questionable leader. Possibly the worst sort of goverment I can imagine. "

And here's what an Icaran would say.

"An elected rich SOB who uses smeer campaigns and political double talk to reach officer, and makes promises he's not legally required to keep? And a Nation that practically forbids any form of religious expression in government Oh my God I can't imagine a worse form of government."

We tend to think along the lines that "we're right everyone else is doomed to failure and wrong." they simply have a different culture that beleives in a government we don't and the whole POINT of Icara is to take a look at humans who grew up differently from us and have faced threats we can't imagine that have shaped them differently then us.

Beleive it or not El_Phil even today there are governments that have Born leaders (there are also tribes that have born leaders though these barely count) and are perfectly happy.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

El_Phil writes: "But someone gets exploited."

A "low" wage isn't exploitation if a worker is being paid approximately what he's worth to his employer. Assuming a bell curve for human abilities, a "fair" economic system would actually be expected to include low wages as well as high. If the system permits workers to climb the economic ladder (e.g. no castes), I don't see a lot of discontent over economic issues.

El_Phil doubts the "divine right of kings" as a stabilizing factor, yet I think he underestimates the power of religion. Historically, true believers have suffered martyrdom, fought terrible wars, and happily executed suicide missions in the name of their deities. A political leader who also embodies the religious faith of his people has gone a long way toward solidifying his power.

Given the proper tradition and indoctrination, I don't see discontent rising to the levels El_Phil seems to expect. Up until the end of World War II Japan was solidly behind its government and god-emperor, despite its defeats and the terrible suffering of its people. Suicide became a standard way of waging war, and both soldiers and civilians routinely committed suicide to avoid capture. If this kind of system could co-exist with major democratic nations, couldn't the Icaran system be even more successful in an alternate world that may never have produced Athenian democracy or the Roman republic?

I do have my own doubts about Starhawk's premises; for example I don't see how the "religious freedom" he mentions can be consistent with the semi-divine status of the Praetor--the last thing you want is any hint whatsoever that the state religion may be wrong. I'm also wary of using the word "crusade" in a world that may never have seen the Crusades, or even Islam and Christianity. And I don't like the idea that the "military" can remove nobles--without absolute civilian control of the military, the "banana republic" syndrome is all too likely.

But I do think that religion, indoctrination, and prosperity are plausible as a basis for government stability and longevity. And I like the idea that the Icaran state has "reinvented" itself a couple times along the way--a series of "successor states" to me makes more sense than one immortal empire. With a little more work on the checks and balances, Starhawk may soon have himself a nice little fictional society. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Well in reference to the military removing nobles, Vice or Star Admirals are actually given rank "Noble" which is why William Ross and Yu Lin suddenly went from "William Ross" to "Lord Admiral" and Yu Lin became "Admiral Lady".
The military is given limited judiciary power over nobles when it comes to them disobeying the armed forces advice leading to the deaths of civilians. OR if they begin forming a private military. Both of which are the fast lane to the end of a rope.

As far as the "religious freedoms" you notice I said "Legal Religions" right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif the only really Legal Religions are "The Path" (i.e state religion) and Buddihsm (and that's mainly because the ESS had to be incorporated and since the bulk of Asia is Buddist you can't outlaw their religion wholesale).

There are small enclaves of other religions such as Hindu and Islam but they are few and far between and tend to avoid government scutiny by not getting involved in politics or anything that would make them look like a threat.


Crusade:

often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.
A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.
A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. See Synonyms at campaign.

I am sort of opting for #3's description since #1 and #2 are irrelevent as the Icarans took over Rome long before the formation of the papacy so "No smoka, no popa".

If you have any other ideas for what to call these wars of conquest (and no not wars of conquest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif) then I'd be more then happy to read them.


Oh and as far as government loyalty and the like goes well I see it this way Icara is meaner then the US but nicer than Nazi Germany and Japan (WWII) and quite frankly most of the Islamic states and if people can happily jump in line with these regimes I'm pretty sure there would be relative stability for Icara.


Oh and BTW I worked on a rough "Imperial Timeline" as in tracking "Dynasties".

It's pretty much like this:

(Dawn of History)
Icaran Principality (destroyed in effect by Sparta)

Icaran Empire (Effectively ends in the year the first Lunar colony is founded)

Icaran Solar Empire (slight political reforms to deal with non-Terra provinces) (later destroyed by UN forces and forced to evacuate Sol, first encounter with an unstable warp point)

New Icaran Empire (Icara, Norvor system- effectively ceases to exist when the ESS population is finally merged)

Icaran Royal Empire (What we see in the era of my fan fic, lasts a thousand years and effectively ceases to exist for reasons I wont state here)

Second Icaran Royal Empire (Reformed in Novor on the fortress world of New Icara effectively reunifies the Empire over the next fifteen centuries)


Basically yeah "Icara" has survived millenia and by time we hit the Second Royal Empire we are looking at about 9,000 years. But the Empire has changed time and again.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Nobles: Ah, the military has authority over nobles in the military . OK.

Religious "freedom" and "legal" religions: In other words, everyone has the "freedom" to share the state's approved beliefs, or else. Sounds like an analogue of George Orwell made it into this alternate reality. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Crusade: It's not the concept, but the word itself that I question. The word is derived from specific actions that probably didn't occur in the Icaran reality (although I notice Islam seems to have slipped in). The best translation to 21st Century English may indeed be "crusade", but the Icaran term itself would probably have nothing to do with Christian symbolism, i.e. a cross. As an alternative I'd suggest "Wars of Liberation", as in "The Phong Liberation" and so on.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Hmmm that has a ring to it "Phong Liberation" I like that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Well yeah considering Icarans don't speak English I guess translations from terminology may not even carry over into English.

As far as Islam "slipping" in well Icara took generations to reach the Mideast so the locals had plenty of time to get into the "swing" of things with Islam before Icara showed up and quashed the local governments.

As far as the "freedom" to beleive in the state religions well like I said as long as you stay under the "religious radar" your not messed with, but if you run around spouting fundamentalist Islam (as is currently seen in the extremeist arabs) you'd end up on the wrong side of a stun batton before being dragged in to have a chat with a shadow dagger. Cults are just plain hunted down by the local authorities and it's pretty much up to the Provincial government what they do with the members, though Imperial law dictates the immediate execution of the leader.

[edit]Oh and forgive my ignorance but who is Orwell? is he the guy who wrote Animal farm?[/edit]

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif *gawp* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

OK, ignorance forgiven.

Yes he is the guy who wrote Animal Farm. He is also the guy who wrote 1984.

Orwell is very important, in literary terms, particularly in the kind of speculative alternate-reality totalitarian-regime-construction & maintenence fiction you are looking at. I'd throughly recommend you read some of his stuff. (by "some of his stuff" I mean "at least 1984") Even if you find nothing in his works that you feel inspired by for your own writing, at least you'll understand what people are talking about when they compare Icara to Oceania. And they will, if your own writing is any good.

About Gerorge Orwell.
Don't read the wikipedia entries on the actual books, BTW. They are full of spoilers. Read the books instead/ first.

1984 is not only a monumentally important book: It's also a bloody good book. In fact it's one of the most gripping novels I've ever read, and I've read a lot of them. Animal farm is fascinating as a historical metaphor but as a novel it doesn't compare to 1984. It's still well worth a read, but it's not 1984.

The film 1984 (the one with John Hurt and the Eurythmics soundtrack) is a respectable interpretation of the story, but read the book first. The film will make you go cold and probably give you nightmares, but the book will leave you awake night after night, staring into bleak nothingness at 3am as you sit up in bed hugging your knees, shivering, rocking and babbling incoherently.

Aside: My older brother Dave signs all his text messages to me "1984". Big Brother. Get it?

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

I tried to read 1984 in 1994 but found it to be to... how shall I put it... boring to read at the time. I think I read like two chapters and never went back. Not to worry I also did that with one of Tom Clancy's books....

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Bad AT! Bad! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Indeed the word "Crusade" is derived from "Crux" meaning "Cross" which is a symbol for Christianity. Like Hunpecked said, something along the lines of "Liberation" (or, in the case of aliens (or "Xenos") "Annihilation") would be better suited.

While reading 1984, it put me in a dark mood, but I was very happy to have read it. I can really recommend it.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Well I don't know if Icara is as evil minded as people seem to say 1984's "State" was as the government of Icara honestly does allow a mostly free life. And they also beleive they are doing what's best for humanity.

From what I've heard of the 1984 society it's pretty much "everyone's a mindless drone" and the state dictates absolutely every aspect of life, right down to what you wear.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Perhaps you would be interested by Huxley's Brave New World instead? It is pretty much at the other side of the spectrum as far as dystopias, and might be an utopia for some people (whereas I can't think of anyone wanting to live in 1984).

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

As hunpecked said, coming along nicely. Still short a few checks and balances and is heading a bit 1984, not so much the grimness as the mental indoctrination. And the determination to keep the working class in power of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

My problem with the divine right has been covered: Religious freedom. Now if its 'freedom' as in your free to worship want you want, but your also free to be killed that's a problem as supressing people's religion does piss them of and cause civil wars. If it's actual freedom then by the nature of things some religions will not have the Praetor as a saintly figure. This is also a problem.

In fact I'd say Buddhism is fairly incompatible with this system. Apart from their general dislike of dogmas (such as the Praetor is saintlike) they also like each individual to follow their own path of meditation. This is dangerously like free thinking. Finally, and this is the biggie, they shouldn't kill or be associated in any way with killing, no matter how justified and neccessary the killing may be. Given that one of the main pillars of the Icaran goverment is killing dissidents or rebels that's a problem.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

This is true, but Buddhists do manage to live in all kinds of war-torn and violent parts of the world, under governments with unspeakable stains upon their consiences.

The thing about Buddhism is that it's incredibly diverse. The form we see in the west is derived largely from very 'pure' (and do I realise how prickly that word is in this context) forms of Tibetan and Japanese Buddhism straight out of the monastaries, that focus very tightly upon meditation, non-deification of the Buddha and the quest for enlightenment.
(Although naturally the rigorous and demanding monkish disciplines have been softened up a fair bit to accomodate our western lifestyles)

However, Buddhism as it is practised by the vast majority of Asian buddhists is a far more day-to-day belief system. You pray to Buddha. you have a little statue of him on the dashboard of your tuk-tuk to ward off evil and bad drivers. You go to the temple once a week to pray, and on special days or if you want something in particular you go and offer flowers or money or whatever. It has merged and mixed and blurred with various other local religions, so that to me it looks more like Hinduism or Sikhism or some other ism I don't even know the name of.

My point is that it's very versatile- it's as versatile as the people who follow it- and like any religion (technically, I know Buddhism isn't a religion but yadda yadda yadda) it will mold and evolve and hybridise itself to fit into whatever niches it can find in its environment (ie society). Just look at the way Western Christianity has absorbed all the pagan faiths that stood in its way as it swept across Europe, and the various pre-christian cults the Romans had to incorporate into it. The western Christianity of today is actually a diverse mongrel mixture of a dozen or more different religions/ faiths/ cults/ beliefs. Compare it to African Christianity, which often incorporates all kinds of local witch-doctor voodoo stuff, or to Judaism which, even though it is effectively Christianity's 'mother' faith, is barely recognisable as such except in shared scripture.

What this means for Starhawk is that after a few dozen generations, Buddhism (or at least mainstream buddhism) in his world would probably look like some kind of bizarre Icarist/buddhist hybrid that our buddhists would have difficulty recognising, and the Icarans would be more than happy to allow.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

El_Phil when it comes to religous supression, again the problem with your theory is that the vast bulk of the Icarans are followers of "The Path" religion (which btw is a similiar religion to the earliest christianity but has changed over the millenia) so they are not supressed, the bulk of what's left is the Asiatic "holdouts" who are buddhists so the vast majority of the population is not supressed at all.

The handful of other faiths within the Empire are as I said not actively hunted (except cults who are seen as a major threat) as long as they don't try to do anything overly active in the public. It's simply a matter of them not being approved of by either the government or the mainstream Icaran populace. So yeah they are supressed but the average Icaran wouldn't much care because it doesn't effect them which is a bad point for rebellions.

As Dogscoff said their Buddhists are not something those living in our world would recognize fully, but the changes are on a subtle level.
Buddhism is as stated also very diverse because as we saw the Japanese of WWII who were "buddhist" certianly did not stick to the peace, love and enlightenment philosophy.
For that matter Japan has not followed this at any point in history so saying being buddhist instantly means your a pascifist is slightly flawed. Sure the monks are but the average buddhist?

Granted the ESS buddhism came mainly from the Chinese branch but there to we see that they were willing to wage war throughout history, it's just that they were less "active" about it. (Fewer battles but bigger and in later dynasties mainly defensive against Huns/Koreans, Mongols and Japanese/Koreans).

Some buddhist philosophy does actually also include living budda's in mythology and if the Icarists/Buddhists belive the Praetor is one of these it would not be totally unlike the Icarans "Living Saint" philosophy.

In regards to brave new world isn't that the one where they were all "Get stoned it's good for you and sleep with as MANY people as you possible can?" and "Long term relationships are bad."
Because that sorta doesn't fit in with a near Theocratic government http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And as stated Icaran school children actually see "posters" with the exact opposite messages.

Or was that stuff just the movie version with Spock I mean Nemoy?

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)
 

Strategia_In_Ultima writes: "While reading 1984, it put me in a dark mood, but I was very happy to have read it. I can really recommend it."

Well-written, entertaining, and educational. Reading it helped me appreciate the innumberable examples of 1984-ish doublethink, disinformation, propaganda, and language manipulation rampant even in relatively free 21st Century Western Civilization.

But I think I liked it mostly because I'm a sucker for happy endings. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

I seem to recall from an earlier part of Starhawk's saga that the "modern" Icaran Empire "re-educates" criminals instead of executing/imprisoning them. Presumably the same thing could be done with inconvenient religious zealots.

Um, Starhawk, are you SURE you didn't read "1984"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

That would be roughly correct, as far as the ideas go, but ideas are easy enough to alter. You could easily make up a "solitude, work, self-growth" society based on the same mechanisms as Brave New World: only the ideals change, but not how you can... convince all your citizens to follow them. Brave New World does have some religion, or more accurately, religiosity.

More generally, Brave New World is more of a twisted utopy than anything else, where government really knows what is best for the whole people, and implements these schemes. That basic idea sounds a lot closer to your own Icarians than 1984, though details are hardly the same.

This post should be considered when we vote for "Most Obscure Post Ever".

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

LOL your right about that Alneyan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Well Icara I guess is pretty much a cross between "Brave new World" and "1984" from what you folks are saying.

Unlike 1984 the Icaran government is not some overly cruel saddistic power block that enjoys mercilessly hurting it's people, however Icara DOES have some of the similar (re-education and indoctrination) philospohies from what it sounds like.

And unlike "Brave New World" Icara is a society where monogomy is more then simply recommended but practically demanded and where drug abuse or anything that harms your body is seen as almost sinful. (Remember right from "Kindergarden" on up Icaran schools emphasize physical education and maintaining your body's health through exercise)

So I guess Icara is a "Brave new 1984" hehe, seriously though if I do manage to write a book it wouldn't suprise me if as Hunpecked said people compare Icara to 1984 or Brave New World. And I suppose I would be pleased in a sense as my work was being compared to two very famous books.

As long as no one compares Icara to the Federation of Planets or the "Terran Empire" anymore I'll be happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I do have to admit I laughed my butt off when soemone who read some of my story said "So Icara is basically the Star Trek UFP."

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

You really should read 1984. Nothing to do with anything in this thread or your book read it just for itself. The fact it will be helpfull for this book is just a benefit.

This following bit is my impression of that part of the book, others may (will? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) disagree.
The opression in 1984 is not for fun and isn't slightly sadistic (In the classical 'someone enjoys doing it' sense). It is to crush any opposition, at all. You don't just kill traitors or rebels, you make them admit they're wrong and make them love the goverment. Reduce them to nothing but love for the leader and then put them out of their misery. Not a 'I'll say anything under torture' admission, but a genuine feeling/thought.

But that is just one of the many excellent facets of the book. So much of it has entered popular culture, and it's so damn good as a book, that anyone calling themselves an author really should read it.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

The values being enforced may be different, but what's important is the fact that they are enforced. It would be well worth reading brave new world and 1984, and then trying to find similarities in the two distopias described. Despite their superficial differences, you will see that they are very much the same in prinicipal. Then think about your Icarans, and try to decide if you have created a Utopia, a Distopia or something in between.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Good advice I'll read them both (I saw the Brave New World movie but I doubt it was much like the book) although from my understanding I'd call the Icarans a cross between a Utopia and a distopia because they have some major bonuses over any modern government but they also have some obvious (by our opinion of right and wrong) drawbacks to their government and culture.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Well there's bonuses for the people then there's bonuses for the people in power. Quite a large distinction there, unless you count indoctrination from birth as a good thing for the average person. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Because I'd say it's not even close to a Utopia, the nearest is a garunteed job. That aside it's not looking too good for individuals, although good for keeping the bosses in power.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Well El_Phil that's a narrow viewpoint obviously. Beyond garunteed jobs there's medical care far in advance of anything we could imagine that is open for everyone including life extending processes that add centuries to the human life span.

A true sense of community, clean streets, relatively crime free society, equal chances for everyone to excell even those who are not as physically capable as the "normal" populace have a place in society.
Mentally incapable people are looked after in state run facilities that try to discover cures for whatever caused the mental illness and that treat their patients like human beings.

A strong military that has only rarely ever been used against the population of an Icaran province/world.

The list goes on and BTW we are all "indoctrinated since birth" sure not to "Love the state" but to what our culture and society consider acceptable. We are all "bred" to our societies and Icarans are no different they are just raised to beleive in their government and in community over self.

Oh and BTW I would not call a society that views individuals as less important then the whole anything but NORMAL, face it the USA, EU, and just about any other country I could think of would frag you in a heartbeat to save the lives of more people. The Icaran government just comes streight up and says "look if we have to sacrifice two thousand people to save two hundred thousand we will and you don't get to question that."

Like I said people in the west these days are so self centered they can't view a society that would raise them to beleive that though on an individual level they may be special that pales in comparison to the lives of ten others. Face it most westerners these days would rather watch five people die then sacrifice their own life to save those five.

An Icaran would just be raised to respond to the instinct of saving others over their own life, that includes whole cities which may be sacrificed to save the nation.


And what is Utopia anyway? We would call Utopia a place where we get our greed fulfilled and nothing less, Utopia to us is where there is:
No Pain
No illness
No sacrifice
All the money we want
All the women we want (or men if your a woman)
Being able to do whatever we want whenever we want no matter the effect on others.
Everybody loves us
Everybody likes us
Everyone does what we want.

So in that case what is Utopia but the utter lack of self control and the utter indulgance of greed and arrogance?

Do you get what I'm saying here El_Phil? They are not Utopia but they would view a Utopia as what I just described.
The Icarans suffer from few illnesses they are all raised to be a community and beleive that their fellow citizens are their fellow NEIGHBORS no matter how far away they live in the Empire.
They live extremely long lives that are mostly good (hell they have a standard of living that makes the US look 3rd world),
And what's the price? Loyalty to the government, loyalty to your countrymen and being raised to belive that it is only right for YOU to be less important then OTHERS of more numbers.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Frankly no I don't see what your getting at. A utopian society isn't just the physical side of things its spiritual, moral the whole shebang. Indeed the physical side was considered the least important by many proponents of the Utopian ideals.

You may call utopia endless greed and arrogance, but frankly that's a nasty perversion of the ideal. Those who proposed the ideal wanted the whole betterment of society as a whole. I'll grant you that is the aim of the Icaran rulers. BUT included in any utopian ideal was always the freedoms of thought, action and religion. Freedoms Icara does lack or at least limit.

I found this list of common features of dystopias:
* A hierarchical society where divisions between the upper, middle and lower class are definitive and unbending (Caste system)
* A nation-state ruled by an upper class with few democratic ideals - No mention of democracy so far.
* State propaganda programs and educational systems that coerce most citizens into worshipping the state and its government, in an attempt to convince them into thinking that life under the regime is good and just. - Sound familiar?
* Strict conformity among citizens and the general assumption that dissent and individuality are bad.
* A state figurehead that people worship fanatically through a vast personality cult, such as 1984�s Big Brother, We�s The Benefactor, or Equilibrium�s Father. - The Praetor is still saint like isn't he?
*A fear or disgust of the world outside the state - Not a big fan of xenos are they?
* A common view of traditional life, particularly organized religion, as primitive and nonsensical complete domination by a state religion, e.g Death-Worship in the Eastasia of 1984 - 'The Path' ringing any bells?
* The "memory" of institutions overriding or taking precidence over human memory
* A penal system that lacks due process laws and often employs psychological or physical torture
* Constant surveillance by government or other agencies
militarized police forces and private security forces - How else do the shadow daggers know what's going on?
* Corruption, impotence or other usurption of democratic instututions
* Insistence by the forces of the establishment that
it provides the best of all possible worlds that all problems are due to the action of its enemies and their dupes

I'm not saying Icara meets all of those exactly, but you've got to admit some of them are spot on and quite a few are very close. Hence why I say it's a dystopia.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Okay what I was trying to get at was that OUR idea of "Utopia" is not necessarily THEIR idea of Utopia because it's two different cultures with two totally different and mutually exclusive forms of gvernment.

They are not going to see Utopia as the fluffy bunny way we see it they are going to look at our view and say exactly what I wrote. That it's a selfish ideal where people are pretty much going after a Utopia without having to do any work for it, or work after they get their Utopia.

Remember Icarans are a work oriented people and laziness is seen with disgust and to them a "Utopia" where work is barely required is hardly a Utopia at all because to them it would be a life without much purpose. Just sitting and meditating on the flufiness of the world is not their way of viewing things.

And look at what we consider "Utopia" it's pretty much the Star Trek Federation that we all first look too and if you REALLY look at the Federation it's a Communist power block where it's "Do what we say and follow the party line or your booted out." And where Religions of any form are scorned as being obsolete and out of a barbaric past that should be forgotten. And yet we call this a Utopia, because people are "enlightened" (in other words pansified) and because they are pretty much allowed to do whatever they want as long as it conforms to Star Trek morality (which seems to be almost non-existant considering they think nothing of getting a woman pregnant and then leaving)

I mean what we call a Utopia can never truely exist because as a wise man once said "Utopia can only work after everyone is dead." and though kind of harsh sounding it's true because Utopia would require everyone WANTING a fluffy society where Peace, Love and Enlightenment rule and where "we ain't gonna make war no more".

Your right Icara is NOT a Utopia but it is also not a hellish regime that opresses it's people or treats them like the 1984 "Big Brother" would.

Now on to your points of a Distopia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif:


* A hierarchical society where divisions between the upper, middle and lower class are definitive and unbending

(Icara does not have a caste system at all and I honestly don't know where you got that, yes they have a nobility but this is not a caste that can not change in fact new nobles are added for any new province. Nobles are also stripped of rank if they break the law and a new noble is chosen to replace them.)

* A nation-state ruled by an upper class with few democratic ideals - Nope no democracy, they also never HAD democracy as a choice nor would their society see it as viable after millenia of Praetorian society.

* State propaganda programs and educational systems that coerce most citizens into worshipping the state and its government, in an attempt to convince them into thinking that life under the regime is good and just. - Uh sound like any country where they want you to think they are good and just?
And on the flipside Icara's legal system IS JUST as everyone is answerable to the justice system including the government officials. They are also pretty good as they take care of their population better then any modern government.

* Strict conformity among citizens and the general assumption that dissent and individuality are bad. -They never said individuality is bad they are just as individualistic as we are except that they are aware that they may have to sacrifice that for the good of the community around them.
I know this sounds contradictory but think about it a soldier has to give up "individuality" to serve the government, so do police because they have to be willing ot put themselves in the line of fire to protect others. This is basically just the standard war Icarans are raised, if it comes down to YOU or OTHERS you should die instead of OTHERS (Others being plural) as one man is less important then five or ten or more.

So yes they are individuals in their every day life they are just raised with a "them first" instead of a "me first" attitude.

And uh I also hate to break it to you El_Phil just about EVERY country views dissidents poorly or else we wouldn't call them dissidents we'd call them by a nicer name http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

* A state figurehead that people worship fanatically through a vast personality cult, such as 1984�s Big Brother, We�s The Benefactor, or Equilibrium�s Father. - They don't "worship" him as in praying and stuff they aren't catholic yah know. A saint by a "mainstream" Christian viewpoint is someone to be trusted and respected but not worshipped. They also view God as higher then the Praetor and don't see him AS GOD.


*A fear or disgust of the world outside the state - Not a big fan of xenos are they?

Your argument there is slightly flawed as in they are not afraid or disgusted by Xenos simply because they are "the outside world" they are disgusted by them because they are NON-HUMAN and are for the most part not even [b]humanoid[/i] so yeah they are a bunch of specists we figured that out already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif in fact I sort of stated that in their very first encounter with an alien.
Other Human societies are simply seen as something that needs to be incorporated for the good of humanity.

So in a way you could twist it to say they embrace the outside world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

* A common view of traditional life, particularly organized religion, as primitive and nonsensical complete domination by a state religion, e.g Death-Worship in the Eastasia of 1984 - I'm sorry your TOTALLY off here and btw that very statement is Contradictory as "organized religion" is being primitive and non-sensical and yet having a "state religion" notice what I'm saying here?

They are if anything ultra-traditionalists who follow an organized religion and encourage others to, the Pastors are not controlled by the state or state officials by any means.

* The "memory" of institutions overriding or taking precidence over human memory- Could you explain what this means?

* A penal system that lacks due process laws and often employs psychological or physical torture- Not torture though they do cain minor criminals to just keep them from having to go to jail for long periods of time.

* Constant surveillance by government or other agencies
militarized police forces and private security forces - How else do the shadow daggers know what's going on

Yeah pretty much here I have to agree with you the Shadow daggers do watch high priority individuals not EVERYONE though.

* Insistence by the forces of the establishment that
it provides the best of all possible worlds that all problems are due to the action of its enemies and their dupes- Nope this doesn't fit either.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Ugh, no. I'd trade a UFP passport for a one-way ticket to a Culture Orbital or GCU any day of the week.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

I have to say if the Federation from Star Trek is what people would call Utopia, well then I ship me off to the Breen homeworld.

The Federation is nothing more than a socialistic, morally self righteous, elitist organization that goes around the galaxy interfering in other races affairs. They claim that they have a prime directive that prohibits such things, yet they still interfere. They dictate to potential new "members" that if they do not adhere to the Federations rules and regulations, they will not be allowed to join the Federation. They force feed their morals upon other races without any regard for that races history or culture. Again they interfere despite having this holier than thou prime directive. As if they are the greatest culture to ever grace the universe. Essentially it�s the Federation way, or the high way.

They frown upon just about everything from free commerce, ala the Ferengi style, to the ownership of property. Despite their high ideals and righteous moral standards, they secretly trade away planets that have long since been colonized by humans. In one instance the mighty Federation force relocated entire populations of human colonists, American Indians no less, to meet the terms of an unfair treaty. Where were the Federations high and might morals when it came to up holding the rights of those colonists?

There are literally thousands of instances where the Federation has proven itself to be anything but a utopia. In the STNG era we discovered, much to our disgust, that the Federation would rather talk and compromise with aggressive aliens rather than putting a fist into their faces and forcing them to behave. The days of Kirk and his style of command were referred to with some disgust as "Cowboy Diplomacy" by a Jean Luc Picard.

The Federation is ran by a bunch of cowardly men and women who lack the backbone to lead with honor. They dictate "membership" terms to new races and force these races to set aside generation of culture in order to join the mighty Federation. In return they must follow rules of conduct that prohibit them from protecting themselves, securing income, and providing for their future. They must relay upon Starfleet to protect their worlds and the Federation for trade and raw materials. They are forced to endure humiliating moral values that are as alien to them as a hydrofluoric atmosphere is to us.

No the Federation is far far far from being a utopia.

Romulan Star Empire - Minister of Propaganda

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

**smacks head into wall repeatedly**

Starhawk pleas stop generalising about what utopia is. You keep getting it wrong. As has been eloquently stated by AT the Feddies are far from being Utopia and almost no-one thought they were. Hell you could put a better argument for Klingons than the UFP!

I didn't write the list so the terms aren't perfect, but the thrust was and is accurate:

Hierachacal society. Well is anyone but the Praetors family ever going to lead the empire? Can anyone less senior than a noble question their actions? If a nobles son/daughter is competent they are assured of the job aren't they?

Democracy: So they've been so brainwashed they don't even want to influence how their country is run!

State propaganda is still propaganda. And supressing other news sources and view points, either actively (kill 'em) or passively (shunned by society and no radio/TV/xxxx transmissions)

Given that dissent can be just questioning the status quo and wanting change the difference is in how they're treated by the goverment. In the west are disliked but tolerated (they want to stay in goverment) and dissidents in, say Iran are shot, beaten or tortured. Or all three. Icara appears to be in the Iran camp on this one.

Personality Cult not religion! You know like Mao or Stalin had? Quasi-religious cult based around how xxx is beyond question, wonderfull in every way and is the only person to lead them.

Makes perfect sense. Most people think that Traditional life (ie. before the party/preator/dictator) took over and "improved" life for all was primitive and rubbish. The religions of that time were also nonsensical. However the state religion your 'Path' is what everyone should follow. (If the state disdains any who don't follow one religion, it is a state religion. You don't need the goverment enforcing doctrine for it to be a state religion.)

* The "memory" of institutions overriding or taking precidence over human memory. - History is what is written down and what the goverment says it is, not what happened (or you remember). This one may or may not apply, I've seen no evidence either way.

* Insistence by the forces of the establishment that
it provides the best of all possible worlds. - Well when a society has been instituionaly (not technologicaly) stagnant for millenia and enforces the status quo with instant vicious reprisals I'd say they're 'insisting' the establishment can't get better.

The entire education system is based on making sure no-one wnats change and to produce malleable citizens who don't question orders. Think about it you're brought up to put others first and serve the common good. But who decides the common good? Nobles and Praetor of course! And the praetor's orders are final. You can't question the great leader, this systems worked for generations don't question it!

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

What I'm saying is that we ourselves don't know WHAT a true Utopia would be and THE ICARAN view not what I personally think a Utopia would be as I stated already.
And a Utopia after a while would simply be handed down from generation to generation after the first generation's hard work the rest would just get it "handed" to them so to speak. Which is another reason Icarans would see this as at the very least odd.

Okay gotcha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Nope but don't automatically assume that this is "oooh evil" because our own ancestors lived this way for MILLENIA without minding.

*Smashes head into wall repeatedly*

And you just keep proving how arrogant we "Democratics" can be that we automatically think our way is the only way, I will say this AGAIN Icara has never EVER EVER had a chance for democracy and after millenia of order and stability Democracy now seems like chaos:

And El_Phil Democracies are hardly stable as we see even here in the United States where people constantly fight over what is "right" in politics and what do we get in return? Political corruption a President very few trust but none can do anything about, a Govenrment that dictates what we can and can not do.

Does this sound good? No but it's the way all Democracies are bound as history shows Democratic goverments always fall it's just a matter of time before they rise again after their fall that changes. After Athens it took Millenia for a "Democracy" to come back, and Don't point out the Roman Republic because that was also run only by the elite as only the Equestrians (SP?) were allowed to vote for the Senate.

Propoganda is the standard of all governments it's just a matter that OUR propoganda is good and THEIRS is bad. Our beloved democracies (and I say that sincerely) use propoganda at the drop of a hat so again you can not judge an entire civilization by this.

You can question the government and they won't shoot you they just won't like you and your neighbors may beat the holy living hell out of you.
REBELS are shot and CULT LEADERS are shot because they are seen as traitors who can not be redeemed.

That again is the view of someone who has been raised in a democracy to belive that this is evil and wrong and ooooh the horror.

Icarans don't worship the Praetor and you simply changed course from that to basiccally rephrasing "They Worship the Praetor" they see him as a figurehead who is to be trusted and followed yes and for the most part yes his word is law except that he also has the Nobles to run the day to day affairs of state with him so in that way he's not much different from a King of old Europe.

The Three Kings WERE bad and corrupt which is why Icarans readily accepted the Praetorian line in the first place and if you read the intro you'd know that wouldn't you?

Now I love how you keep throwing at the line "Traditional" well I hate to say this YET AGAIN they are NOT AMERICANS their traditions are from a different culture and for the most part their Traditional life has not changed much at all except for where technology/time is involved.

"The Path" was always the Icaran faith so you are making a MAJOR assumption in assuming it is a creation of the state. How do you think the Praetor was seen as "Chosen By God" if the faith was not already there before he took power? In fact "The Path" helped the Praetorian line run Icara because they did NOT have to enforce a religion that was against the nature of Icarans.

And if you want to call it a "State Religion" simply because it is what the bulk of Icara follows then you could easily call Christianity a "State Religion" in the West at it is the primary religion of the west, or you should call Buddhism a "State Religion" in Asia because the bulk of Asians are buddhist etc.

Yes Icara has outlawed all but a few religions but it's also because those religions have never had a good reputation for breeding "stable" individuals in their view. And also because lets face it when the bulk of a Population is homogenous in both race and religion then you are bound to get some intolerance towards other religions.

Nope not really.

And yet you said they were not traditional http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Let's face it your starting to tug at strings here, I have clearly said that the Empire has evolved over the Millenia, just at a slower rate then that of what our societies would.

I also clearly stated earlier that the closer to the "Modern Empire" you'd get in history the less "viscious" the government becomes.

They are TRADITIONALISTS for the most part because it ties them to their heritage, it ties them to their ancestors and to their past. Tradition has dictated the development of their institutions yes but why is this automatically bad?

Look at America we have NO CULTURE we are pretty much a melting pot who's citizens for the most part don't know any of the traditions of their ancestors or their great grand parents even. I mean I've met a lot of people who don't even know WHAT heritage they are from.

To an Icaran THAT would be a bad thing because it would be seen as a disgrace and an insult because you can't be bothered having traditions that tie you to the past of your people. So what we see as "Progress" they see as forgetting the importance of the past.

LOL Yeah here you're right sort of their educational system IS DESIGNED to create citizens who beleive in the greater good over themselves, of the survival of the government (I.e the icaran People not just the politicos) over their own hide.
They are in a dangerous world surrounded by hostile powers, and as they go out into space they meet a bunch of terrifying aliens who are not the friendly little buggers we thought they'd be.

So yeah the Icarans don't want change because the last thing you need when your Empire is forever at risk of invasion is to have internal strife as a hotheaded little punk with a new political idea decides to come along and cry "Vive Le Revolution".

If you haven't noticed most revolutions end badly for both parties invovled.

And like I said El_Phil you yourself show signs of the same intolerance you accuse them of having because you can't even acknowledge that for a culture with a totally UNAMERICAN way of doing things might not be evil and corrupt and exploiting it's citizens.

It's funny how that intolerance toward a new way of doing things can cut both ways ain't it?


The point I have in making Icara is to create a society that has both good and bad qualities like ANY society and that has a different view of how to run things then the "Lets go Democracy!" way of things we always see in Sci-Fi.

Icara is not the "Galactic Empire" where anyone who questions the status quo is shot, they are shunned yes just like anyone in the US who goes "Let's go Communism!" would be.

We've been "brainwashed" to belive Democracy is the greatest form of government ever if you want to look at it the way you are looking at the way Icarans are raised to belive their government is the best way to go.

How often do you hear a President of the US going "Yah know Communism, Socialism they sound okay to me." it doesn't happen so that's State Insistance that "Democracy is the only way and it has been for centuries so shut up and don't question that."

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

SO should I take my underground forces and take over tho world yet??? :~

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Normally, viscosity increases over time. If you want your government to become less viscous, try turning the heat down low and stirring in a little water.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

lol Dogscoff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif okay I forgot to spellcheck there.

My point is they become less VICIOUS as time goes by.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Well after losing an entire huge post this will be less plithy. Arsefez.

In short. I'm not American and I'm no fan of the US system for a lot of reasons. Not that the British system is perfect mind. That Icara is unamerican, so what? If anything that's a good thing in my book.

That's not the reason I consider it dystopian and evil. It's the personality cult of the leader, huge constantly watching security force, the unquestionable Praetor, the constant indocrination and the intolerance of all but the 'correct' way.

Finally history shows people want their opinion listened to, from the senates of Rome and Athens, through Magna Carta and the Italian city state charters to the colonial revolts of the last century. They're just the obvious ones, there are hundreds of others.

To have reached a stage were no citizens wants to influence how their country is run is no easy feat, yet Icara apparently has. At what cost to free will is the question?