Vanheim - help wanted.
 

I just started up a new game and this time I want to play something completely different.
Something I haven't played before.
So ..........
This is the first time I'm going to play Vanheim (SP)
It's also the first time I will be using Blood Magic.
Which means ...... I really could use some pointers.

Orania map.
All nations in the game (except Ermor)
Win Condition : 10VP (out of a total of 20VP's)

Pretender : Frost Father F3 A3 W3 E1 B3 - research 24
Dominion : 6 - Water Cult
Scales : Order3 Cold2 Growth1 Misfortune2 Magic1
Building : Fortress
Points left : 0


My reasoning :
- I want to keep my Frost Father at home. Let him reasearch and do Blood Summons ( Ice Devils and Fire Devils sound promising from the manual)
- With some equipment he can give a Fire, Water, Air and Blood Bless to the holy troops.
- My first idea is to start researching Blood up to lvl3, to get some Devils and Frost Fiends, then start Construction up to the Powerfull Items to get the necessary Equipment for my mage and Devils ( can these already be used as SC's ? ) Then continue with Blood Magic.
Should I research something else as well ? What and why ?

Maybe I overdid the Misfortune 2 a bit, but with order 3, maybe it'll hold up ? Yes ?

I took Cold2 to get another 40pts, figuring in summer it'll heat up to Cold1 anyway , putting me in ideal conditions.

I would really appreciate some feedback from Vanheim and Blood specialists.
Thanks.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Apart from the risk of losing a lab or temple very early, misfortune-2 should be survivable.

Devils are only troops, not commanders. If you want summonable SCs early, research to Blood-5 for Ice Devils. They're excellent combatants as is, and turn into full-on SCs with just a hellsword (though tricking them out with more toys never hurts). Your Cold scale very much suits them too.

While Devils and Fiends make great troops (not so sure about Frost Fiends though - they're mediocre missile troops IIRC), at one per summoning they're very expensive in terms of mage time until you can summon them in numbers later in the game (or make Soul Contracts).

You might want D3 instead of A3 on your Pretender. Van has plenty of air mages that you can recruit, while D3B3 gives you acces (with the odd item) to great spells like Curse of Blood (lvl 7 - summons a Vampire Lord) and Blood Rite (lvl 7 - summons a 10 or so vampires).

I don't think your Bless plan works. I'm pretty sure that Bless benefits depend on the original magic paths of the Pretender. That I would say is the main downside of your design; Van has some lovely Sacred troops that just cry out for a strong Blessing. Still, you can't have everything.

Mark

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

if you want blood go mictain imo (or abysia) and yes bless is only affected by your starting paths unfortunatly (l8 sp game my pretender had 10 everthing) and those big blood summons rock as scs.

you could also try my personal fav and give your pretender a high forge bonus (dwarveen hammer, forge lord hammer, the site, forge of ancients ect and spam soul contracts. (ulmish smith with forge lord hammer and forge of ancients empowered to blood 1 should be able to make contracts at around 20 or less slaves a pop (not to mention bloodthorns at around 3-4 slaves)

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

As others have said, the biggest problem with your design is that Bless effects cannot be obtained by empowerment or items, so you have to have level 4 paths on your pretender from the start. You definitely want F4W4B4 - I would choose S4 over A4, because you can recruit powerful air and earth mages (vanadrotts and smiths), although the D4 blessing is ok too and D4B4 does open up some nice spells.

I would pay for these extra paths by getting rid of your growth scale. With Order 3 you will have no money problems so a death scale would be fine.

I'm playing Vanheim in my current game, with a setup a little like yours:

Great Sage pretender
F4W4E1A1S4N4D4B4 - for summoning, forging, site searching
Watch tower (I never build castles)
Order3Prod0Cold2Death3Misf2Magic1

- it's been great so far, though I have lost three provinces to barbarian/knight attacks, and neither hero has arrived.

If you want your vans and valkyries to really kick ***, you need F9W9 blessing instead of any of the above. I don't know how you pay for this though - I suspect you have to sacrifice order3.

I research construction to get winged shoes for my scouts and SDRs for my blood hunters, and then straight to Blood5 for Ice Devils. I was very lucky to find garnet sorceresses in an indy province - they are B2 so much better blood hunters than vanjarls.

Good luck,

CC

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

If you want to bloodhunt isn't it advisable to take a slight growth scale ?
To compensate for the losses and/or to let your provinces grow above 8000 pop where your Blood Hunts apparently stop reducing pop ?

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

it may be advisable but i sure never do ;p

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Arch is a veritable Prince of Death (scales), and his Vanheim is the leading power in Truper's Revenge, so his advice shouldn't be taken lightly. On the other hand, I've yet to see any evidence that he's doing any serious Blood hunting.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Same here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Blood Hunting always reduces population, but with 8000+ pop it will take too long for it to be noticed in the game. Of course, patrolling will bring it down much too quickly, so you'll have to reduce taxes. It seems most people prefer three hunters and zero taxes. The really big difference comes around 5000 people. Below that, it is really hard to find slaves.

Of course, in long games Growth is invaluable, and Death+Misfortune can result in grim events. I usually don't sacrifice that much for a multitude of low blessings. I counted 6 level 4s. I would only have taken Water and Blood, and possibly Earth for mages, leaving the other paths to minimum levels required for boosters. As an example, a Nature 2 pretender can achieve Nature 5 through boosters: N2 -> Thistle Mace, N3S1 -> Moonvine Bracelet, N4 -> Treelord's Staff (+2 levels, but replaces Thistle Mace). And I would leave out Air and Earth if I weren't going for bless, as the national mages cover those two well.

Vanir and Valkyries have awesome defence, but aren't as good on the damage dealing end, so each of Water, Blood and Fire are good blessings. Fire doesn't actually deal more damage until Fire 9, but the flaming weapons make a huge difference. On the other hand, Blood 9 is nigh useless (a chance of cursing the one who killed the unit), but it helps a lot on lower levels. And Water 9 makes your blessed units untouchable by almost all enemy warriors, and gives both them and your mages quickness. As it stacks with the one available from e.g. Boots of Quickness, it is also very powerful.


Also, don't forget to script your Huskarl forces to Fire instead of Attack closest. Those Javelins do make a difference. Unfortunately the better Hirdmen don't carry Javelins. I'd love to be able to use Javelin forces boosted with Strength of Giants and, much later, Rush of Strength.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

just a question, would bless quickness+ the spell+ jade armour+ boots of quickness let me cast 5 spells a turn? (4 quickness+1 normal)

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

The spell would not stack with any items, but would stack with the 50% quickness bless. Heroic quickness would also stack.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Yeah Water and Blood seems like the way you'd want to go. Traditionally, F9W9 is the uber bless for the Vans. Technically speaking if you can only manage to get one major bless for the Vans, F9 is best since it results in the greatest damage potential. But W9B4 would be usable if you planned on relying on blessed units since it would also give you quick access to Ice Devils.

Also note that blood hunting requires an implicit sacrifice of gold income. Which can be pretty tricky if you are relying on the Vans as your troop backbone since they are pretty pricey (even tho they get the sacred upkeep bonus). And one other thing about the Vans in general: thier achilles heel is thier vulernability to missle fire. Not that they will roll over and die like militia, but for such an expensive unit, that it so easily targetted with orders, its something to keep in mind.

I'd also echo a comment made earlier that the low devil spells (Frost fiends, bone devils, devils, etc) are very mage intensive. So if only your pretender is equipped to cast them, then you really wont be able to turn out any kind of realistic sized forces. To do that you'd need a staff of mages like only Mictlan and Abysia can really provide in the early game. My suggestion to you is this: if you have normal/easy research just go straight for Ice Devils, give them lifedrain and send them out. If you have hard/vhard research, go up to B5 on your pretender and shoot immediately for Soul Contracts (Const) only later devling into Blood research. Soul Contracts effectively allow you to parallelize the summoning of Devils given only a single blood mage since you can hand them out to Scouts and whatnot. And of course dont forget the Dwarven Hammers if you are playing the theme that gets those 3E mages.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

so how many spells per turn would all the items+bless give?

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Jade armour, boots of quickness and the spell all do the same thing and only one will have an effect. So, the spell plus bless would give you 2 spells per turn, and 3 every other turn.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

nice ,maybe i can finds a good use for this

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Boots of Quickness and Jade Armor give the same benefit as the spell. Heroic Quickness, W9 blessing, and possibly the Champion's Trident (Death match winner's price) have different effect, so they stack with each other AND with the spell/Boots of Quickness/Jade Armor. However, I'm not sure of the Trident; it might have been the same as the spell.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

It is the same as the spell and other items.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Thàt needs a little explanation , I'm afraid (coming from someone who hasn't played Blood before http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The way I read it, a mage can make 1 (ONE) contract to get a devil every "season". Does that mean "every turn" ?
Can that same mage sign more than 1 contract ?
What does this sentence mean : "Soul Contracts effectively allow you to parallelize the summoning of Devils given only a single blood mage since you can hand them out to Scouts and whatnot." It sounds like you can make somebody else (a scout in this case) sign the contract that your Mage sacrificed the blood slaves for.

Thanks for all the help so far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

That's right. The Soul Contract is an item, so when you put it on a scout, that's when "you can make somebody else (a scout in this case) sign the contract that your Mage sacrificed the blood slaves for". You need dwarven hammers to make soul contracts pay for themselves faster. Or just shoot for B5 and Horde From Hell.

CC

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

soul contract gives you 1 devil per turn and you should only have 1 per mage/commander. and yes a mage can sign more than one as when he makes it you can put it on anyone you like

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Note that a game season lasts for three turns (Early Summer, Summer, Late Summer), but all instances of "every season" actually mean "every turn".

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Did somebody allready say that the Contracts should be given to cheap stealthy commanders?


Or at least that seems to be a popular strategy.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

thing is if said sneaky commander enters enemy teritory and cant command devils one devil will attack that province very turn

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

The sneakiness is not for the sneak itself, but for the protection it gives. Contracts Horror Mark the wielder, but e.g. Scouts that just Hide cannot be targeted by Horrors. This removes an important balancing factor from the equation.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

i see, all has been revieled .if you can get 5+ contracts try sneaking intoenemy teritory, having to keep a force there hurts his army/treasury + i did it with succubus so he got assasinated aswell

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

I didn't mean that. Sneaking Scouts can be caught. However, if a Scout hides in your castle (having the command to Hide), the occassional horror attacks that result from being horror marked don't work properly. None of the Scouts die. Sending Lesser (or Greater) Horrors to Contract provinces would work, too, except that the Scouts are hiding and thus won't be in the battle, and the horrors aren't able to attack them. And they can't be seen, so probably won't be targeted by mass destruction spells.

Contracts are expensive investments, but they are quite easy to protect. The Horror Markedness, which should make you lose a Contract every now and then as well as giving your enemies a weapon against you, just doesn't work with sneaky units.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Earth Attack and Mind Hunt also don't work against units busy hiding. Leprosy, Fires from Afar, Murdering Winter and Flames from the Skies should work fine, though, but that will only be a threat for them if:

A) They are in the same province as a big army of yours.
B) The enemy is using Astral Window to count how many units you have exactly and notices an increase in a province where there are Devils.

Even in these situations, your scouts still have a pretty good chance of making it through, and keeping them somewhere quiet should greatly increase their life expectancy. Alternatively, just put them somewhere under the sea, where they will be immune to everything except Leprosy (I think).

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Er ... but devils aren't amphibious, so doesn't that kind of defeat the object? Don't the devils just die as soon as they arrive in the underwater province??

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

unless you have it ona water mage such as a mictain rain priest

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

I thought they were, since Amphibious critters are so common these days.

The devil ought to survive for one turn though (even on their own), so it could be brought back on the shore safely, so long as you have two amphibious commanders to ferry the devils around.

Paranoia can't hurt!

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Are you sure they will survive the one turn? I tested with recruiting aquatic units with #secondshape on land, and they all died before I saw them (i.e. on the turn I got them).

BTW, that didn't work, so we can't change independents/magic site units into Oceania units.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

I'm sure I deserve a good beating. I got mixed up with Poke in the Eye, where Aquatic units left stranded on the shore get one turn of leeway, and vice versa. It doesn't work that way for units you actually recruit.

Thetis' Blessing does work, but nothing else seems to: the bloody devils don't appear to be generated along with their commander, even if said commander already has devils (at least my Deep Seer couldn't get that to work).

On a related note, is it actually possible to get an horror attack because of Soul Contracts? The aforementioned command (and a scout) have been carrying a Contract for at least one hundred turns, and they are still alive and kicking with Research orders. First death, after 150 turns of Contract-carrying, so I guess it does work - slowly.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

just dont take forbidden light if you dont like horror attacks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Well, I haven't actually used Contracts much myself, so I don't know how often those attacks happen usually. I quess it is somewhat affected by Magic scale, but it seems it still is negligible. Pity, it was such a good argument. ;D

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Hehhehe, no problem. I think everythings been pretty much explained so I'll just recap. Soul Contract is just an item like any other and is not automatically assigned to the creating mage (as the description may imply) so it will just appear in your magic item list. Once you put that Contract into the hands of an (un)willing commander, 1 devil will be automatically summoned every turn. In this way a single strong blood mage (your pretender in this case) can supply a legion of cheap bloodless commanders with Contracts resulting in an ever-increasing rate of Devil summoning.

And as was previously stated: Scouts are the preferred holder of Contracts because they are so hard for your enemies to find/kill while Hiding. Horror attacks will definitely still occur on them but in my experience not nearly fast enough to make up for the benefit of having a horde of devil summoners.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

I've played (started up) about four games now with Vanheim (up to turn 15 or so) and I must say their Blood Magic ability has got me confused.

I really don't see the "synergy" with their Air Magic ability.
After reading through all the Blood Spells in the manual, I noticed very little usefull Battlefield Spells.
On top of that, almost ALL Blood spells have incredible fatigue-numbers.
Lvl-1 blood spells nearly all give 100 fatigue and are very limited in what they can do (single figure or 1 area at best)
Since your mages are only B1 (B2 at best but very expensive) I don't see how Blood Magic can be very effective for them.
Should I just ignore Blood Magic at the start of the game and start using it no sooner than mid to late game.
It seems very unproductive to put research points in it in the early game.

It seems to me that giving the E3? Dwarf more spell casting options is a much better early game strategy. Simply send a priest along to help Bless the sacred troops, get some air shield and then shoot some lightning bolts at the enemy.

Really looking for some helpful suggestions here, more specifically on your research strategy (which paths, up to which level, to get which spells ... etc)

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

yeah don´t bother with blood until later.

good early game research levels are evocation 4 for bladewind/lightning bolt/thunder strike, and conjuration 3 for call of the winds/summon earth power.
That´s enough to easily win early game skirmishes and call of the winds lets you siege castles for a very cheap gem investment.

Later go for wrathful skies and cloudtrapeze.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

Vanheim isn't exactly a blood nation. The Vans remember how to sate nature with blood, but it isn't one of Vanheim's primary abilities. In other words, Vans are awfully expensive if you're going to use them as blood 1 mages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

On the other hand, the occasional sacrifice to help spread dominion can be justified under some circumstances, and blood is the easiest path to "ramp up". In midgame, you can begin making an investment in blood, forge a few dousing rods, forge a few boosters, and you're on your way. Blood is hard to use on the battlefield, but Storm Demons are useful, and seem rather thematic as well. Enough blood can also alow you to diversify your magic. For instance, a Fallen Angel is a good fire mage, as well as a good blood mage, and can make a nice thug in a pinch.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

I understand you can make a blood sacrifice to increase your dominion.
Is this dominion increase guaranteed or is it a gamble (percentage) just like praying ?

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

i think every sacrificed slave cause a temple check

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

You can use blood a bit more effectively if you take the Midgard theme, IMO. You get one blood-pick Galderman for every four, and they're fairly cheap and very flexible.

Re: Vanheim - help wanted.
 

I haven't checked that theme, yet.
Will do that.
Thanks for the info.