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OT: Stop IE
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Re: OT: Stop IE
Man people have a insane hatred for microsoft, and don't tell me thats not it because it is.
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Re: OT: Stop IE
So disliking the worst browser on the market means I have an insane hatred for MS? That's some interesting logic.
Did you visit the site? |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Sorry, but I have to say this....
copy from the site, and my comments begin with // There are countless bugs in Internet Explorer, but here are the main reasons to choose a free alternative. //most of the bugs refeared to are features, read what I write below, and IE is free, I have no use for a alternative Prone to viruses and worms //Well you would be if you had over 80% share of the market? Renders pages incorrectly. Web designers then need to spend extra time working so that pages work in Internet Explorer. This puts costs up, and slows the web down. // I am a web programmer, I design for IE from the start, I have NEVER had a problem with rendering Doesn't let people resize certain text sizes. This means those with poor sight cannot read small text on many sites. // This occurs when web developers use certain font commands instead of default, the text font commands only resize the default sizes. Far slower program than other web browsers // NEVER had a problem with speed Far larger program than other web browsers // I have a load of computers and servers here, my largest server being 750GB, and the smallest desktop being 80GB, 10MB extra is so large and a good reason for changing isnt it? Isn't as user-centric as other web browsers. It lacks many handy features such as tabbed browsing and integrated search // I agree about tabbed browsing, I enjoy that for reading up many forum posts at once, but you can do that, although limited with the msn addon, and it will be included in the new IE Doesn't support PNG images properly //because every website uses png? if it was that good, and everyone wanted it, it would support it, frankly there has not been a website I have visited that didnt work. I AM HAPPY! now for extra bits, this is a horrible thing to say but, why do you think terroists attacked the twin towers instead of some house in a isolated village? people will always try and target the largest ammount of people with as small effort, why on earth if I am a virus writer, would I write something to attack a 10% share, when I can take out a 80% share... mozilla recently has had a load of bugs, I do not just say my opinions, I try the competition, I am always getting the flash thing at the bottom saying update available, why on earth do you think that is? they are adding a quick feature that everyone will enjoy? no, its a quiet, quick bugfix. anything with a big userbase will always be a target, and if people use others, I can bet my life on tons of bugs being there. now as for IE worms and stuff, it is shipped in a unsecure mode so people can go to any site they want, a load of people visit hack sites, crack sites, porn sites, bad sites in general, where viruses and trojans hang. I can say to you again, I have got my security settings to high, it only allows me to go to sites I want, and basically it is much more secure, I have never been to porn sites or crack sites, and I can tell you I have not had ONE SINGLE error with IE. Yes, there are other options out, but it does not mean that they are any better. I could say so so much more on this topic, but I will let it lie, but I will write more if I have to! back to friendly talk about when SEV will come out? |
Re: OT: Stop IE
// I am a web programmer, I design for IE from the start, I have NEVER had a problem with rendering
You should not "design for IE," you should design for w3c standards and avoid all IE rendering bugs whenever possible. Standards exist for a reason. Unfortunately this means that the entire standard can't be used, but it should still be used, not the IE bug set. // This occurs when web developers use certain font commands instead of default, the text font commands only resize the default sizes. Which is a good ekample of a problem with IE: inconsistent behavior. // NEVER had a problem with speed If you read the rest of the site, the summary becomes more clear. See: http://www.stopie.com/speed/ //because every website uses png? if it was that good, and everyone wanted it, it would support it, frankly there has not been a website I have visited that didnt work. I AM HAPPY! There is absolutely no excuse for IE to still not render PNG format properly after half a decade. It is an extremely popular format. people will always try and target the largest ammount of people with as small effort, why on earth if I am a virus writer, would I write something to attack a 10% share, when I can take out a 80% share... mozilla recently has had a load of bugs... Mozilla fixes their bugs. MS lets 90% of the bugs and holes go unchecked. This is the difference. now as for IE worms and stuff, it is shipped in a unsecure mode so people can go to any site they want, a load of people visit hack sites, crack sites, porn sites, bad sites in general, where viruses and trojans hang. This is a poor hack. The well-documented holes in the browser that are exploited every ms of every day should have been fixed 4 years ago. I should not have to use "deny everything" settings to be free from dozens of critical, unfixed security holes. Further, I should not have to dowgrade my OS to emoticon to get future security fixes. The browser being integrated into the OS (since the days of 98) is one of the most atrocious blunders ever made by MS. Running user level programs (such as rendering web pages) in kernel mode is just absurd. It is one of the most basic security blunders I can think of. Most of the exploits in IE would never have been so bad if MS had not done this to get a few percent improved performance. Yes, there are other options out, but it does not mean that they are any better. The fact that IE is so utterly terrible is what makes the alternatives better. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Ohh that's the kind of talk that attracts Thermodyne. Probably with some comment about how we all must change now, and you're a fool if you don't. Just a prediction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
As for me, I've found an IE addon that does tabbed browsing and better searching. Never had a problem with IE, not speed nor security so why change? If I went to dodgy sites then maybe I'd be slightly safer, but probably not. Frankly if the site doesn't support IE it's the sites problem, not the browser. If you don't support the 85%+ market leader your stuborn or stupid. I don't like Bill or MS, but you must deal with life as it is, and at the moment IE is king regardless of its faults. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Sites for IE works for all the other browsers, so why not design it for IE first? Works in all the other browsers, looks the same, more convient for those people who still use IE.
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Re: OT: Stop IE
NullAshton said:
Sites for IE works for all the other browsers, so why not design it for IE first? Works in all the other browsers, looks the same, more convient for those people who still use IE. This could not be further fom the truth. Sites have to be hacked away from w3c standards to work with IE bugs. Sites should be designed for w3c standards, not the IE bug set! Those standards exist for a reason. Most browsers do not make allowance for IE bugs, but instead implement the w3c standards. If you don't support the 85%+ market leader your stuborn or stupid. Sites should be designed for w3c standards, not the IE bug set. Good site design follows w3c, then is forced to deviate to allow for poor-quality browsers (aka IE) to still work. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
do I really care about designing for w3c standards, NO! I will develop for what is popular, and as long as that is internet explorer, I have no reason to change.
over half the sites out there are probably not w3c fully compatible, but look, the internet is not shuting down, failing, or anything. IT WORKS! get used to it! this website is great! if it has any png images, I would never know, I am not seeing any problems, if png was THAT popular for websites, I am sure everyone would start using it, and then microsoft would make it compatible, although I went to a website with png images, and found NO problem. I use IE almost all the time, I have never seen a problem with images, I see you did not quote el_phil saying: Frankly if the site doesn't support IE it's the sites problem, not the browser. If you don't support the 85%+ market leader your stuborn or stupid. I have to agree with this. If mozilla or other browsers get over 30% share, then I will start using standards, but as far as I think, my sites work in IE, my sites work in mozilla, but why should I make extra care to make sure they work in mozilla when the user base is a fraction of IE This is frankly a rediculous argument that always comes up, I have no problem with IE, and why should I change something that works fine, and I have no problems with, just because you are saying IE does not comply with standards that I do not need to use as my site works with IE, and other useless points. I am sure there are more sites on the internet that are compatible with IE and more importantly WORK in IE than sites that are w3c standards, so I from this moment am going to start a new standard, IE compatible! and my sites are compatible with it, long live forever IE compatible, die w3c! |
Re: OT: Stop IE
I switched to Firefox 6 months ago. I've had a few problems loading some websites in Firefox, but nothing to make me regret the switch.
Just doing my bit to undermine the Microborg... |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Internet Explorer - Slow or Fast?
Despite being bloated, standards uncompliant, buggy and dangerous, Microsoft's Internet explorer is fast. It is fast however due to the simple fact that it is integrated into windows and because it has a stone-age, limited rendering engine. // I have NEVER had speed problems So, even though being technically fast, // OH, SO THEY WENT BACK ON THEIR FIRST POINT??? it does not render the page well. You may not be able to read the text correctly, or have some other problem due to its rendering. So in reality - it can be slow. //BS! I am a internet junky! I go on so many news sites daily, forums, and a whole load more, I HAVE NEVER had a rendering problem, and I have a 8mb/s connection, my connection is never slow, the truth with pictures and others coming is deep in mozilla code, it has a minimum of 8 connections to a webserver, which in actuall facts, when a webserver is having 1000 clients connecting to a image heavy site, this is the equivilant of 8000 connections, slowing down a webserver, so it can be quicker, where as IE has a default of I think 2, this can be changed in the registry. This setting is more generous to webservers, and if changed, the speed can be improved Tabbed browsing - Seems quicker Tabbed browsing allows the user to open and view many pages at once, across many different websites. You can open a link 'in a new tab', and while it is loading, you can continue reading the page you are on. //I agree, tabbed browsing is great, but it makes no diffrence to shift clicking and opening a new window, then alt tabing back. This definitely (for dial-up users anyway) makes the internet seem faster. Tabbed browsing is a feature that IE does not support. // It does with addons. If you are using dial up in 2005, you really only have yourself to blame! However, the alternatives do. Standards resistance = slower internet Because Internet Explorer doesn't support CSS properly (faster download, because a page's design must only be loaded once, then just content), programmers and web designers must use 'hacks', or old or invalid code (takes longer to load). This means IE is slowing the entire Internet down significantly! //I have not got a lot of experiance with css, but I would of thought that the css file would need to be downloaded each time you go to a diffrent page, so hows this diffrent, css is mainly a way for web developers to easily update mass sites in one go, with fonts and stuff, it makes no diffrence to the user if the site is css or not, I could be wrong here, but I do not really 100% understand the new css, I use the old css, and it works fine! Web developers must go to extra lengths to make PNG alpha transparency, drop-down menus, and many other nice features work in Internet Explorer. //ahh, BS, I use JPG, works great! Internet Explorer: Increased costs for all Because web designers need to charge higher prices to ensure that pages work in Internet Explorer, their clients must pay extra. These costs are then passed down to you, the consumer. //nope, just use visual studio.net 2003 for asp.net or frontpage for normal html and asp, it works great, and always compatible with IE, view my last part in my last post. Speed up the Web? Get rid of Internet Explorer Get an alternative to Internet Explorer. You'll be saving money for people, and speeding up the web for yourself and others. // sounds like someone just hates microsoft. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
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hasnt anyone figured out, there always has been, and always will be companies like microsoft, what happened if I, today, and everyone switched to mozilla? as free as it is, banners, or google sponsered top, they would then own 100% of the market, and be just a target for hackers as IE is today and then will people be saying switch to IE? People who go on, and try and convert others are frankly no better than people on streets with megaphones saying convert your religeon, yours does xxx and ours does yyy. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
over half the sites out there are probably not w3c fully compatible, but look, the internet is not shuting down, failing, or anything. IT WORKS! get used to it!
Ok, let me give you this power adaptor for your PC. I am MS, so I ignore standards. Unfortunately, your house was built with standards in mind, so the adaptor shorts out and burns down your house. Now do we see why standards are important? ...if png was THAT popular for websites, I am sure everyone would start using it, and then microsoft would make it compatible... PNG is a popular format, and is rising all the time. It will never be ubiquitous, and never should be. For images with low numbers of colors, GIF is better because it creates smaller files with no quality loss. The problem is alpha transparency (blended level transparent pixels for smooth integration with the background instead of the on/off of traditional transparency). This is an awesome feature of PNG that web designers can not use because IE still can not render it after half a decade. Once again, the crappiness of IE stifles innovation. This is a huge problem... There are many excellent features of the w3c standard sets for CSS, HTML, XHTML, etc. that we can not use because IE is poorly implemented. I see you did not quote el_phil saying: Frankly if the site doesn't support IE it's the sites problem, not the browser. If you don't support the 85%+ market leader your stuborn or stupid. Actually, I did. Please refer back a few posts. do I really care about designing for w3c standards, NO! I will develop for what is popular, and as long as that is internet explorer, I have no reason to change. This is frankly a rediculous argument that always comes up, I have no problem with IE, and why should I change something that works fine, and I have no problems with, just because you are saying IE does not comply with standards that I do not need to use as my site works with IE, and other useless points... *cringe* There is little point in addressing the rest of this (especially since you missed the point entirely and I would just be repeating myself). Please do the world a favor and stop designing buggy web sites. Thank you. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
I HAVE NEVER had a rendering problem...
Because site designers are forced to use terrible hacks to work with IE bugs. That's the whole point... HTML code should work identically in all browsers WITHOUT special hacks. Thus, the w3c standards. ...mozilla code... a minimum of 8 connections to a webserver More like 2... //I agree, tabbed browsing is great, but it makes no diffrence to shift clicking and opening a new window, then alt tabing back. This is true. However, it is very messey to have 8 or 9 windows open. Tabs are an excellent organizational tool. ...If you are using dial up in 2005, you really only have yourself to blame! How elitist of you. //I have not got a lot of experiance with css, but I would of thought that the css file would need to be downloaded each time you go to a diffrent page Not at all. The browser cache stores 1 copy of the CSS file that does not need to be downloaded over and over again. It makes a huge difference in bandwidth and loading times. Web developers must go to extra lengths to make PNG alpha transparency, drop-down menus, and many other nice features work in Internet Explorer. //ahh, BS, I use JPG, works great! Wow... just wow. Yay for stifling innovation! //nope, just use visual studio.net 2003 for asp.net or frontpage for normal html and asp, it works great, and always compatible with IE, view my last part in my last post. Front Page is one of the worst web page design tools out there. It creates bloated, buggy code. It most assuredly does not produce "normal HTML." Speed up the Web? Get rid of Internet Explorer Get an alternative to Internet Explorer. You'll be saving money for people, and speeding up the web for yourself and others. // sounds like someone just hates microsoft. Umm... no, it doesn't. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
ok, now then...
if microsoft designed a power adapter and burnt down my house, I would be annoyed, but when it comes down to it, I do not design my websites with standards in mind, I design for what works in IE, and it also works in mozilla, so why should I care if it is a standard or not when it works? Why should I comply to a standard when it already works in multiple browsers? something like a power adapater, fine! it can go wrong if you do something wrong and do not comply to standards, but as I said, internet is not shuting down because people do not comply to standards as most people use IE and there is no problem, which is why I simply said, why not make a new standard called IE compatible? already there is more websites who have this standard than w3c, and then make mozilla and other browsers IE compliant!? I do not see why I should stop designing my websites with IE in mind, IE is a huge % of the internet, and frankly, my sites work in mozilla and other browsers, my site is not w3c standard. I created it in visual studio, I copied to my webservers, it works in both IE and mozilla, but is not w3c standard. I feel we are moving away from the main point here, and it is becoming more a flame war, the main thing I can say is, my non w3c standard site works in both IE and it works in mozilla, which means that mozilla supports not w3c sites, so in reality, how is this diffrent from IE? |
Re: OT: Stop IE
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Fact is that I recommend Firefox for personal use, although its popularity has caused it to become a target for exploits too. I was one of the early converts to Firefox. And I really don’t care what browser people use. IE holds the majority of the personal market and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. IE rules the business world, and will remained unchallenged as long as developers rely on activeX controls to make things work. IE 6.0.2900.2180 can be made quite secure on an XPsp2 system, but it is a constant chore to keep it locked down on a system used for random web browsing. Personally, I’m beginning to look for another obscure browser, one that will not have the install base to attract exploits. Just to set the record straight, the core IE code that keeps being hacked is not even MS’s work. They licensed/bought the majority of it from outside sources. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
All browsers have advantages and disadvantages.
For example, I've being using Firefox for the last year or so and I've experienced more problems with it than I did using IE before - particularily when it crashes and deletes all my bookmarks. I still prefer to use because most it's security features are on by default, so it means less fiddling for me. I don't follow computer things too closely anymore, but I do find it ironic that many of the programmers who are putting together free software in their spare time are in a way destroying their own future job prospects if their programs take off and replace commercial programs. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
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So as a serious question, if all this CSS and XML could be fully implemented on websites what would I notice? Not behind the scenes or less bodges for the writers, but what you see upfront, because I genuinely don't know. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
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And I'm to blame for this...how? |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Compatibility with all browser and OS environments is the entire purpose of the w3c standards. IE is not a valid standard bearer.
I feel we are moving away from the main point here, and it is becoming more a flame war, the main thing I can say is, my non w3c standard site works in both IE and it works in mozilla, which means that mozilla supports not w3c sites, so in reality, how is this diffrent from IE? IE supports part of w3c. You can design fully w3c-compliant web sites that work in both IE and the rest of the world. IE also has a lot of junk code that it supports that must be avoided. Do you at least run sites through http://validator.w3.org/ to avoid major errors? |
Re: OT: Stop IE
And while we are on the subject of web standards. The linked site is in violation of several laws regarding access by people with disabilities, and as such Mr. Obrien could be needing to make use of that insurance that he probably doesn't have. If someone knows him, they would be doing him a favor by letting him know that many of his link tags don’t work.
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Re: OT: Stop IE
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Re: OT: Stop IE
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht....stopie.com%2F says it is valid. All of the links save 3 have titles, all of the images have alt tags.
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Re: OT: Stop IE
Wilhil, Fyron, you people are basically on the same side. You both know that IE has several 'design features' that should be avoided, because of compatibility issues with other browsers. You both also agree that it's smarter to design websites to work on all browsers, and not exclude one browser because of those same 'design features'. Might I ask, then, what it is you are arguing about? Both of you people achieve the same result in the end, a website that will work equally for everyone. Does it really matter what route you use to achieve such ends?
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Re: OT: Stop IE
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As I said, mozilla supports non w3c standards for the reason, so they can run non compatible sites, for the same reason microsoft runs them. I just honestly can not see a argument here for saying IE is bad and you should switch, I like IE, I have not hard one problem, and I simply have no reason to switch, yet I do not go around forums saying SWITCH TO IE... and go on about things. personally I like it, and to date, I have not hard one problem. If you have security issues, put it in high security mode. I have not had one problem. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
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As per posts #388024 and #388031, this has pretty much already occured. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
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the argument was mainly about web browsers, not websites... but I do get your point, but still I just am a little annoyed because as I said, I do not mind people advising programs, saying, why not try mozilla, you can do this, maybe if I was using IE 3, and then they said try mozilla, it is much better, but frankly, mozilla vs IE is nothing more than someone pushing their points of view on another, which is no better than propaganda in my books. The owner of stopie.com is just another microsoft hating person. I am not to keen of some areas of microsoft, but they have good products, why should I stop using them? |
Re: OT: Stop IE
I see 7 in the code. The US law allows for none, and is currently being much abused by the legal establishment. It really doesn’t make any difference to me, I just found it ironic that a site that was speaking so much to the state of internet standards would be in less than complete compliance with one of the few that have actually be legislated.
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Re: OT: Stop IE
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Re: OT: Stop IE
There is really a US law about website access for disabled people? Is it just zoomable, scalable text or something more?
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Re: OT: Stop IE
Yep, web content has to be equally accessible to individuals with disabilities. Including blind individuals. It provides the mechanism for these “individuals” to collect civil damages, which is where the legal establishment stepped in. The intent was to improve access; the result has been the skimming of much cash.
Every site has to be completely viewable by adaptive software such as JAWS. It can be a real pain when writing code by hand. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
I've been using Firefox for a year or two now, and I'm very happy with it. I haven't had any problems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
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Re: OT: Stop IE
I have been using Firefox for a while now. I can't live without tabs. It's really nice and easy to add-on. The skins are fun to play with also. Pop-ups are rare and I didn't even have to install any add-ons for that! I've had no technical problems from it at all which is rare for my hodge-podge PC. I don't hate IE, I just love Firefox. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
[EDIT] I just ran my website through the validator. It was full of errors! I had no idea! It's true about Frontpage. Unfortunatly I am horrible at manual HTML coding. Is there a better program for creating websites that won't have so many errors? I want to make sure my site is bug-free. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
I am now a convert to teh cause of Firefox. This program is awesome!
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Re: OT: Stop IE
Bah, all this talk of IE v. Firefox et. al., it is complete nonsense. There is only one true way to browse the internet, read mail or news, use the shell, or in general, do anything at all. And that way, friends, is EMACS.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Bah.
Get the non-firefox Mozilla instead. It works better. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Evil, evil Will!
Kevin Arisa: There is Macromedia Dreamweaver... There are programs out there designed to clean up messey code. See Tidy: http://www.w3.org/People/Raggett/tidy/ |
Re: OT: Stop IE
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Re: OT: Stop IE
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I've heard of plenty of people having trouble with Fireweasel crashing, losing profile data such as bookmarks etc., and various other problems. I have never experienced these problems, never once lost any bookmarks, very rarely experienced a crash. I'm using Mozilla. Even when I was using the pre-release 0.x versions of Firefox--I started at 0.5 and worked up to 0.8--I did not experience anything more major than some crashes (lockup), which I later attributed to an incompatability between Gecko (the rendering engine for all Mozilla browsers) and my video card at the time. Firefox 0.5, btw, was much faster than Mozilla, so there was a reason for its existence. Firefox is now no faster than its more mature brother lizard. But if you want speed, try the 1.8 beta of Mozilla--it screams. Try K-Meleon. It screams louder. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
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Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act requires that all "electronic and information technology" (EIT) developed, procured, maintained, or used by federal agencies must be equally accessible to persons with disabilities as it is to those who are not disabled. The statute and the implementing standards help to create an accessible workplace for federal employees with disabilities. When EIT conforms with the requirements of section 508, people who are blind or visually impaired are able to access and use government information and services as independently and effectively as those who are sighted. Through the use of technology, filling out an electronic form, keeping a copy of the form, or accessing information describing a federal program is as accessible for persons with disabilities as it is for those without disabilities. People who are blind or visually impaired can locate, identify and operate the controls, and functions of any information technology used to provide government information, whether it is on the web, or in a kiosk. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Tell me about it....
I started Designing Websites when I was 13, I'm 19 now and now that I use firefox I've found that the w3c standards are a great thing. However, unlearning 6 years of bad habits and coding is a hell of a lot more difficult than I thought! |
Re: OT: Stop IE
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Re: OT: Stop IE
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http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/FAQ.htm Quote:
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Re: OT: Stop IE
However, having a website that works for disabled people is a good thing.
How do you make sure the webpage is compatable? |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Poke your eyes out and see if the site still works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Or, do it the boring way, and just make sure that it works with braille reading devices. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
All images must hawe alt tags containing a viable description/name of the image. All links wust have title tags describing the purpose of the link. Avoiding images that are links might help, but way be redundant with title tags. Of course, image links are bad for search engine indexing, so are best avoided anyways. That is probably it. Oh, and don't use the demon-spawn imagemap!
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Re: OT: Stop IE
So what do you do about those security* images? You know the 'Enter the letters/numbers' in the image below' dialogue boxes. You just can't use them I suppose.
* I was told they were to stop general spaming/bot abuse. And to kill price comparison software working properly of course. Seems plausible. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Text to voice readers are clearly spam bots.
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Re: OT: Stop IE
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I know very little html. |
Re: OT: Stop IE
Try supporting them, and the users. Then add some hearing challenged people so that you can support them over a TTY.
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