Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them All
 

There's been several posts on the addition of orcs, elves, night elves, et cetera into Dominions III. Hence, I decided to write this little essay to contribute my two cents on our buddies from Tolkien's realm.

Name ten games, board games and/or video games, with the Orcs, Dwarves, Elves, and Halflings. Good work! Now for the real challenge: You shall name five games with C’tis, Abysia, and Vanheim, the Dominions series excluded.

I trust everyone sees my point?

Our Swedish comrades in Illwinter Productions has made two games that are almost completely free of the ”Orc versus human” cliché that Lord of the Rings, Warcraft, Dungeons&Dragons, and, it seems, just about every other fantasy franchise out there makes use of. That is one of the main reasons why I love Dominions: The massive development team dared to depart from the familiar and venture into innovation - hence I get to explore a new world, rather than delve in a setting I’ve been trough in a thousand shapes and forms before.

I love the Dominions series, which, although it’s low-budget and without too much fame to speak of, nonetheless has a message board that is very much alive and an incredibly loyal fan base that keeps exploring the vast universe and all of its spells, units, nations, and possibilities. There’s a large number of war stories big and small, of players sharing tricks and tips and strategies. The suggestions thread is a vast monster of ideas and critisism, bigger than the threads for many games with more of a fan base. Sure, adding Tolkien races and elements would increase sales. I’m sure that if Dominions III was to be advertised on a fantasy forum, one screen shot of a clash of Orc and Elves alone would get more attention than twenty screen shots of showcasing the huge selection of features and creative and less-than-famous nations. But I, personally, don’t want a Tolkien game. I want a Dominions game, with Dominions’ world and characters and races.

Put short, the Orc-versus-human setting has been over-used to the extreme. As for me, I’ll go farther than saying that I don’t want a Elf or Orc nation: I want as few Tolkien units as possible. No Elves or Night Elves, no Orc nation, no Uruk-Hai, no Hobbits, and no Dwarves. Give me the mysterious Men of Abysia, Vanheim, C’tis, or Machaka any day.

My two cents.

[/b]–Øyvind[/b]
, Norway [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Campfire.gif[/img] <font color="brown"> </font>

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them All
 

Yes, you're perfectly right : this game packs an awesome fresh mythology and background in addition to bewilderingly (sp?) excellent gameplay ! And I'm absolutely not overstating anything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
What can I say more ? ... Huuh, that eventually I'm also fond of the Orc/Elves cliché and won't mind playing a Middle-Earth mod ! &lt;duck mode on&gt; !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

The differing fantasy setting of Dominions is definedly a part of it's charm.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them All
 

You mean Lizardmen, Lava People and Elves?

I get what you are saying, but none of these ideas are unique to Dominions, and I am pretty sure you can find them in many pen and paper RPGs, if not computer versions.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

With respect, I know they aren't, and that Dominions draws heavily on mythology (Illwinter didn't come up with giants and dragons, to put it that way). What I'm saying when I call them "fresh" is that they're not overused like "certain other" races.

And Vanheim isn't Elven, it's a Norse-inspired kingdom (and Vikings are so original:p).

Øyvind

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

The Norse had Elves, too (and I recall reading that the Norse idea of Elf inspired Tolkien.)

According to Wikipedia "Vanir" may have referred to Norse Elves as well as a race of Gods.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

And Dominions itself says that Vanir are a race of Elf-like beings, or something to that effect.

Still, it's nice to see something a little more original, though it draws very heavily on our own mythologies.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

I always thought that the Norse Mythos' elves were quite different from Tolkien's ones.
The only elves (Alf?) that I can imagine with Vanheim are Dwarven smithes and Svartalf (Svart Alf?)
Van seems to be some other mythic race.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Thank you, wikipedia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You can read the whole story here

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

The distinction between alfir, vanir, dwarves, dragons, aesir, giants and trolls is not clearly drawn. Aesir marry giants, dwarves are dragons, vanir are gods, giants are gods, giants are trolls, gods kill trolls, alfir live with vanir, dwarves are alfir and the dead are living.

All that is known is that humans are humans and the gods will die.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Ooook, now i have a headache. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Can you see Tolkein's elves making blood sacrifices, summoning devils, and calling lightning from the sky? The Dominions Vanir are so much more interesting, and the bonus is they're closer to the original myth. I'm having fun writing stories about the "elves" that dominate humanity and demand children for rituals, while coveting their numbers and fecundity.

I still can't figure out Abysia; I've lazily avoided them since I can't really conceptualize their flavor. Perhaps people want those fantasy standbys since they automatically create unit diversity with minimal imaginative effort; all the work has already been done. But with more ancient, diverse mythology you can always read up on a nation from hundreds of sources, not just stuff from J.R.R. and R.A. Salvatore.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

So far Dominions is the only game with "lava people" I have played...

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

I think they were in Fantasy General(?), and are sort of a Dungeons and Dragons staple, no?

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Dom2 lacks orcs, elves, and hobbits? Hmm, last I checked the Tuatha sure resembled elves (isn't "Sidhe" one of Tolkien's elf races?), and the Hoburgsmen are just another name for hobbits (Tolkien) / halflings (D&amp;D) / hurthlings (ADOM)... the only thing really lacking is orcs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
I still think that Clockwork Horrors should produce mecha-Horrors, though, not mecha-Hoburgsmen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

I ain't never seen no 'nother game with no Chinamen in it, is all. Plenty of flavor-of-the-month pseudo-Japanese titles, but absolutely none that do justice to a culture I consider at least as interesting as that of their sun-worshipping, bear-suckling neighbors.

I value originality in my games. Failing that, good use of genuinely interesting civilizations and mythologies is a welcome alternative. Dominions seems to have some measure of both, which puts it head and shoulders above nearly every other computer game out there at the moment.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

"Sidhe" is the term for the race of people who inhabitated the Otherworld after beinng chased by this one by the mythic ancestors of the modern Irish. They became the fey or fairie folk in time. The term literally means a sort of perfectly rounded hill that had a doorway in it. When the moon was right, you went in the doorway and, when you came out the other side of the hill, you were in the Otherworld.

Tolkien was inspired by both Nordic and Celtic mythologies. He fused a lot of what he liked from both, added some other elements, and gave it all a finish of his own.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Not JRR Tolkien elves. Hah:)!

Here I definetly beg to differ. Halflings and hobbits are two widely different things. I think. Never read JRR's books, just watched the movies:o.

Good riddance, I say. Although the Jotun giant brutes can act pretty Orc-ish at times:).

Hoburgsman v4.75
Intel Inside:p

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Well place emphasis on "I have played". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Though I haven't heard of DD lava people. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

And of course, the other way to parse Abysia is to make them even less "original," whatever that means: a race of demon warriors and their human followers.

Nope, that's never been done before. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

And looking at the name (Abyss =~ hell), I'd say that Abysians are somewhere between humans and demons, or actually humanbreds and demonbreds. I just hope Abysia will get Blood-only Cross Breeding in DomIII... That spell's flavour is just so fitting for the whole breeding concept.


How many of you have played Illwinter's first game, Conquest of Elysium, which did have elves and dwarves, dark elves and draconians, human nations inspired by Middle-Age Europe, something Asian (), Roman imperium, and also classical mages: druid controlling animals, shaman controlling spirits, enchanter controlling items and statues, demonologist constantly sacrificing gold to have a chance of binding infernal forces, and necromancer losing his sanity when using his power, but having the chance to obtain immortality if he can clear his mind. Many things from that game are still visible in Dominions, and the changes are just as visible.

The better of the spirits Shaman controlled resemble later Horrors. Blood hunt is no longer automatic, but one still has to lower taxes to push into blood, and two nations are still clearly inspired by Rome. And while Ermorian necromancers don't sacrifice their sanity to call back the dead, the hordes are even larger, and the price isn't gone, it just is different. Even the shapeless things sometimes formed when dozens of corpses were available came back, in the form of the Eater of the Dead.

I wonder if DomIII will bring back other things from that old game. Not orcs or elves, but other well-known clichés... I presume most of you have noticed the mercenary group with Inquisitor leading huge number of Marignon pikemen. Well, imagine an independent army twice that big, with inquisitors and witch hunters in the lead, one of them seemingly prophet, Knights of the Chalice holding the read, all this under the name of Inquisition, attacking unexpectedly? Can you see it? What about the Four Riders? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Oh, there certainly are clichés I wouldn't mind seeing. I trust Illwinter can handle most any cliché well enough for it to fit right in to their world. As a good example, Vaetti could be said to be just smaller orcs. In Conquest of Elysium, they were even named Goblins. Still, I wouldn't mind a Vaetti nation, because Vaetti are more than just goblins. Similarly, I wouldn't mind seeing orcs under the name, costume and even culture Illwinter would dress them in. However, I'm not expecting a Vaetti nation, because unless they think it would work, Illwinter won't add it. I didn't except Moose riders, but I'm excepting Jotun Moose Knights more than War Bears.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Instead you will get Troll Moose Knights. Hmm, wonder if they aren't in dom2 already. I have a recollection of them defending one province in the shepherd scenario.

I think I miss CoE. Should perhaps play a couple of quick games to get some new ideas. I miss the illusionist that never was implemented. Collecting gems as the elementalist but in need of a magical mirror or all illusions and phantasmes would die. Teleport and alter ego. I had lots of ideas for him. Pity we started with dominions instead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

jotun default has goblins, they're pretty close to orcs. in some fantasy environments, they are one and the same.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Troll Moose Knights are indeed in Dom2 already, there is a whole troll only poptype that only appears on a map when scripted. Yoiu can recruit trolls, war trolls, troll moose knights and troll kings from that one.

Kristoffer, what would you guys say to putting Conquest of Elysium as an extra on the Dom3 CD? I don't think you're getting any revenue out of that one as things stand, and its seriously old, but it would certainly give you good publicity if nothing else. If you feel like it, of course.

As for the generic orcs, elves etc, carbon copied from D&amp;D and AD&amp;D, no thank you. I like the Dominions setup the way it is right now, and adding the generics that appear everywhere else would be a detracting flavor from the game.

Something that might be ineteresting would be a nation of crossbreeds, with perhaps two or three types of (more or less worthless) autospawn units and recruitable stuff similar to some of the things that the current corssbreeding spell does. I'm envisioning something along the lines of the Scarred from Holly Lisle's Secret Texts trilogy, if you've happened to read that one. Basically, excessive overuse of a particularly nsty kind of blood magic caused a world wide catastrophe and the backlash of magical energy caused whole nations to mutate into essentially different species or at least subspecies of similar strains, some of which could interbreed and some of which could not. Normally the backlash would have just killed all the victims, but the gods intervened and just caused them to change. A very interesting world, that one, and could give some really good ideas.

Edi

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

I really don't like those moose units.

I've never been that thrilled by C'tis, either. They seem slightly out of place in world dominated by humans and humanoids.

I'd still like to see a Middle Eastern nation with fire and air magic, dervishes, fakirs, hashishim, janisseries and so on.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Ironically, I was thinking along this line the other night as I finished book 5 of the Conan series. I was thinking how "fresh" it is to be reading "fantasy" books without elves, dwarves, orcs, etc and also how much the world of Conan reminds me of Dominions. Seriously!

It has diverse races and cultures and swords and sorcery and demons and devils and gods and pretenders and high priests and undead warlocks and barbarians and ghouls and the list goes on and on.

Point is, I'm loving it and would much prefer if Dom3 kept away from Tolkien-esque races in favor of more mythological ones.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

I hear ya. C'tis would seem more interesting to me if it was a human Egyptian-modelled nation.

Abysia seems funky to me, too, and I'm not too sure about the giants, either. I wish the devs had stuck with the human motif for all nations.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Heretics! Burn them at the stake!

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

It wasn't a cliché when Tolkien came up with it, was it? His original story in Lord of the Rings was just as original, if not more so, than the mythos of Dominions.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Amen, brother! C'tis are my favorite nation, beyond a shadow of a doubt. And I like how they tie into Ermor's story.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

You should have seen my face that time a weatherman mentioned a low-athmospheric pressure approaching from west, over the glacier of Jotunheim... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif I live in Finland, and the fact that the myths inspiring both Vanheim and Jotunheim have been born very close has always intrigued me. I've gathered tips and bits of information, and enjoyed it a lot. I think Jotunheim has much deeper roots in mythology than, say, Ulm in history.

I agree in that C'tis could be more clearly Egypt-inspired, I still wouldn't change them into humans. The fact that they thrive in warm, not hot, conditions but are severely handicapped in cold is interesting. The Life-Death cycle isn't really visible in Dominions simply because there isn't much healing. Maybe Dominions III will bring us another reason for the C'tissians standing for the nation of unchanging perfection. Have you ever noticed C'tis AI casting Burden of Time seemingly more often than other AIs? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Oh man, I loved the Inquistion and the Four Riders in CoE. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Or the Marignonian inquisition http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Well, OK, maybe everybody expects them nowadays... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

I was under the impression that Tolkien's elves came from a Finnish background and his love of The Kalevala. You can certainly see it's influence on The Silmarillion, which in turn set the foundation for his classic trilogy. Though I'm sure he drew from many places and wouldn't be a bit suprised if Norse myths entered into it, too. If you get a chance to read his letters (as well as The Kalevala and Silmarillion), they are truly facinating. Admitedly "dry" reads, but very rich stories.

As for the debate regarding the inclusion of "Tolkien-esque" races, I say why not? If they are presented as one of the nation options and not the central theme of the game, I would think they simply become one more choice available and present the chance to appeal to an even wider audience.

I agree that it would be a travesty to turn Dom3 into a purely Tolkien setting, but why not have a single army that appeals to those that enjoy such characters and could then become more familiar with some of the other mythos involved.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

From what I know, the Kalevala (&amp; Tolkien's learning Finnish in order to read it) was certainly the inspiration for the language of the elves, and the stories in it served as inspiration for Tolkien's stories (just as Beowulf and various other sources did).

But I do not know if there are actually elves in the Kalevala. Their absence from it would preclude it as source of inspiration for the idea of elves as such.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

I don't think Tolkien took Elves from Finnish mythology. I'm not very knowledgeable about the subject myself (:o), but I think Finnish myths mainly tell of shapeshifting trolls that and tiny gnomes/elves as local spirits that will reward good deeds (and food left for them) with good luck.

However, there is one story in Silmarillion that is clearly inspired by Kalevala. The story of Turin has similarities with the story of Kullervo, the hapless. Song of Hiawatha, by American poet Longfellow, is written in English but using the style and rhythmh of Kalevala. It might represent the style better than the translated Kalevala.

EDIT: I'd rather have Middle-Earth total conversion instead of few out-of-place nations. And I think a tutorial would help much more than familiar-seeming nations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Yeah, let somebody mod it if they really want it!

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Points taken. Especially the tutorial reference. Though I find the out-of-place reference interesting. Though the current nations have their mythological similarities, they come from a variety of mythos. So why not one more? I do agree that we've been recently re-inundated with Tolkien and it seems cliche, but is that possibly because it is a young mythos, historically speaking, and one that is very familiar and currently popular?

I guess the question comes down to - Do you feel Tolkien's Middle Earth qualifies as a mythos - and one on par with the others represented? Obviously it is a beautiful narrative and has created a complete history for itself and the cultures within it. But is there something lacking? I guess my stance in the debate reveals my personal thought here. But I'm curious what others think.

If I offer the previously stated thought that its current popularity (along with some truly obsesive fans) is at least partially to blame for its supposed trite-ness, and that when Tolkien created it, it was not cliche, but fresh... Given that, does Tolkien's middle earth qualify as a mythos on a level with those already in the game?

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

shoot if we want tolkiens world in here, why not have Zelazneys Amber worked in somehow. How about harry potter's wizard culture?

to much?

GEEZ!

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Um, why is Tolkien any worse to put in a game than, say, Lovecraft??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Speaking of the Kalevala, I'd recommend it to anybody who hasn't read it. (For whatever my recommendation is worth, that is . . . ) It isn't as well known in the US as some other works, but is very, very good.

Any fans of MST3k may remember an episode where they showed The Day The Earth Froze. That was a psychodelically bad version of the Kalevala (well, one bit of it). I'm not sure if you can really get a feel of the real thing from it, but it is still an interesting bit of trivia. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Yeh - the Kalevala, with Vainemoyen (sp?) and the other Finnish heroes is certainly on a par with the Silmarrilion, GRRM's pre-tellings, and other mythic histories and top shelf fantastic fiction. (I'm also tempted to add, mmm, all of Zimmer's work (Marion Zimmer Bradley's brother, who died far too young), and most of Simon Green and Glen Cook's; also early Gemmell and Zelazny (who did some of the _most_ amazing stuff - best in short stories, but amazing in Lord of Light), and George R R Martin - very popular now for his Game of Thrones, Storm of Swords, etc, but very good in the old days too (Dying of the Light, etc).

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Sampo!

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

As far as Finnish elves, gnomes etc are concerned, I know quite a bit about them (did a presentation of them in 9th grade, i.e. 15 years ago, but I can still remember nearly all of it).

There are roughly 400 differently named types of elves, gnomes, spirits and other such beings in Finnish mythology all told. When you account for all the regional differences in naming, you still have over a dozen categories of being.

The most basic type of spirit is the spirit of fire. If a fire is kindled in any location, it becomes the residence of a fire spirit. The fire spirit will resemble the person who made the fire, so it is very much like a ghost imprint of that person.

House elves are folkloristically no more than an evolution of the basic fire spirit for permanent settlements.

There were separate spirits similar to the house elf for barns, stables, saunas and any other significant type of farm building you care to name. All of these spirits were to be treated with respect and courtesy. If you didn't, they'd get majorly pissed off and all sorts of misfortune would follow. Houses and saunas burning down, cows would stop giving milk, mold would set in the grain and every otehr kind of calamity you can think of. Respectful treatment and kindness would result in the reverse of this.

There were naturally all sorts of spirits of the forests, lakes, rivers (what few of those we have), springs etc.

Most house, sauna, barn, stable etc elves are often depicted much like the gnome unit appears in Dom2, tiny, gnarled old men with long beards. The earlier fire spirits could look like anyone.

Combining folkloristic info with the Kalevala would probably give a pretty good groundwork for a Dom2 nation, but the problem would probably be in getting any material. The stuff I used for that presentation so long ago came from a book on studies of Finnish folklore that was written sometime in the 1950s and I had to make a special petition for it because the whole library network of Helsinki only had one or two copies of it. Naturally in Finnish.

Edi

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Thanks for the info Edi. Any chance you remember the name of that book? =)

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

*slaps hands together*

Excelent, our cultural imperialism seems to be working very well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

I feel that the wizard-poet-warriors would make a good addition to Dominions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Wizard-poet-warriors are welcome additions anywhere, except possibly for certain weddings. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Go WPWs! Edi, you should make your presentation into a Wikipedia article... I'm sure it would be appreciated.

Re: Orcs, Elves, and the One Cliché to Rule Them A
 

Thank you, Edi, that was very interesting.