Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Hey !
This topic has three purposes:
1) To have fun
2) to predict some facts about Dominions 3
3) To provoke developers into repplying.

I will start. Basing on some info from various posts, including Wishlist and Faq threads http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...art=1&vc=1
It is confirmed that each theme is a separate nation, actually. And the nations are divided into 3 eras (early, mid, late for lack of better name). It is safe to assume that themes/factions from two different eras will never meet each other in unmodded game.

Assumption1: It will now be possible to take, say, Diabolical Faith (Marignon) and Restless Worshippers. Themes now considered special will probably be able to be augmented with extra dominion types, water cult, desert sun, etc.

Assumption2: Let's do some guesswork and see which era does each theme belong to.

Early Mid Late
Ermor: Broken Empire > Soul Gate/Ashen empire ?
Pythium - marsh people before Ermor came> regular Pythium > ?
Regular Pangaea > "Iron" Pangaea > Carrion Woods ?
C'tis Desert Tombs > normal C'tis > ?
Golden Era > Arcoscephale > ?
Niefelheim > Jotunheim > Utgard ?
?? > Abysia > Blood of Humans
??? > Marignon/Fires > Conquerors/Diabolical
? > Ulm > Black Faith/Black Forest
Spring&Autumn/Barbarian Kings > Tien Chi > ?
Last of the Tuatha > Man > ?
Poor Machaka > Pitiful Machaka > Corrupted Machaka (see modern Africa for reference on last one)
Raptors > Caelum > ?



Assumption3: Some themes may be removed. Which and why ?
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Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

My 5 cents...

Pythium with C'Tis (sauromancers helping the Theurgs) > Serpent cult / Pythium. Dunno in which order. Perhaps second era is about 'sauromancers are gone, but there are still some serpent temples around', and the third one is a 'pure' Pythium. At least I wouldn't like tho think that Theurg's litanias aren't offered in great Cathedrals anymore. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Desert tombs > C'Tis > Miasma, with Tombs not as a 'return of the ancient Kings' theme, but as an 'Ancient nation obsessed with Life after Death' thingy. More Egypt please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Golden Era - Alexandria - Arcoscephale.
We have seen Arco as an old (tired) Empire and we've seen that land in its time of legends. Now its time to play a Hellinistic Empire at its prime.
Diabolical Faith / Marignon / Conquerors.
When the first waves of the Undead overwhelmed the outer defenses, great fear arose. While the most devout priests were sacrificing their live at the front lines, others were... sacrificing others lives to get help from an even more sinister source. Heresy took some time to weed off, but eventually the Inquisition was founded and succeeded in both dealing with both keeping the Death at bay and weeding out the blasphemy.
First of the Tuatha > Man > Last of the Tuatha. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Post 388426 in the Wishlist thread has some more information:
Yomi -> Shinuyama -> Jomon

Vanheim is probably
Helheim - Vanheim - Midgård

My quess that there are some alternative timelines. As an example, Ulm can be either Black Forest or Black Steel, and those exist in the same era (I think). Marignon, Ulm and Pythium didn't exist before the Cataclysm (undead Ermor themes). Marignon turned to priesthood to keep the undead at bay, Ulm abandoned magic and Pythium tries to hold the memory of the old ways.

I except Middle Era to be quite similar to base themes. I think Early Era is more about units and less about humans and more about raw power than magic (with the Vanir, the Tuatha, the Niefel etc around). There could be exceptions (Spring&Autumn, Golden Era in a way), but I think really powerful magic will be mainly Late Era. With at least one undead theme of Ermor, Black Forest, whatever Late version of Mictlan is, possibly Miasma, Utgård... Also, I think Humans will become more common as the time goes by, as seen in Blood of Humans and Utgård. However, the human nations themselves will also change, to interesting directions... Maybe more corrupted humans along the lines of Black Forest and Diabolical Faith?

I don't know much about Machaka or Africa, but it and Mictlan could become very interesting later on...

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

I think early Mictlan will be the Mictlan of the "pure" era, no blood sacrifices.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

If anything, that would be the middle Era. "Mictlan is an ancient kingdom. Since the dawn of the kingdom, blood has been spilled in the temples of the capital. For a brief period of time, blood sacrifices were banned by a king called Lawgiver, but now..." from the description.


Has anyone wondered why Dominions players are pretty contempt with what they have? While recently there have been more threads about DomIII, the topic hasn't been given much thought. Also, I think this is the first thread ever started so that people could quess what DomIII will be like. This is also very spesific, unlike the Wishlist, and asks for speculation, unlike most threads about DomIII.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

> 1) To have fun

I have.

> 2) to predict some facts about Dominions 3

I have.

> 3) To provoke developers into repplying.

I have.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You are on the right track, with some mistakes of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Keep on guessing. I like it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Some themes are merged.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

How about...

Last of the Tuatha > Man > The Tuatha Strikes Back!!!

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Nay, it's not quite that : Last of the Tuathas, Man, Barbarian Kings, in that order. You know, *those* greenish Barbarians that swarm across the pond.

Speaking of Barbarian Kings, I would put it right at the end, rather than before the main theme: it seems to fit their history and history better.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

You got it all wrong. Pythium are the Byzantines. They split from Ermor while Ermor collapsed under its own undead weight. Then chose to go off and live in a swamp, apparently. Go figure. If Serpent Cult is still around in Dom 3, I imagine it comes after base Pythium.
If Ermor's first age is before the 'splosion(Malediction? Cataclysm? That nasty thing that happened), first age Pythium would have to be part of the empire, if only in name. 'course, pre-nastyness Ermor also predates Marignon and Ulm, so the timeline would still need some work. I imagine the earliest available Ermor will still be the Broken Empire.

I thought Pythium split from Ermor precisely because of the sauromancers, and all those signs and portents they entailed?

That does solve the problem of Miasma and Desert Tombs being somewhat exclusive, but it raises the question of just where the undead half of Desert Tombs C'tis went between eras.

Sounds good, though there might not be that much of a difference between mid- and late-era Arcoscephale in terms of actual units and commanders.

Also good, but raises the question of why CotS would be synchronous with Ashen Empire or Soul Gate. There's also something to be said for Marignon resorting to diablerie only after exhausting their alternatives. I'd imagine they found it almost as abhorrent as the cult of death, back when they could afford to be picky.

But... base Man hasn't got any Tuatha. It's already after LotT.

Carrion Woods and New Era are mutually exclusive. One will have to be reworked to fit them into the same timeline.

Return of the Raptors necessarily follows base Caelum. Pre-banishment Caelum was presumably nothing like RotR, as it had most of what base Caelum has, and the harab seraphs. Now THAT'S overpowered.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

> Now THAT'S overpowered.

One might think so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Hmm, Kristoffer mentioned that some themes have been merged, and also that early, middle and late versions of Caelum are quite close to each other... And much earlier, in one of the dev diaries, "Caelum now has it's three themes almost finished. Now I like the raptor theme, not just the idea."

So, does this mean that Caelum has wider range of magic (some Raptors) in all of its themes? Or have the Raptors become closer to the other Caelumians?

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

You could have 'Age of the Tuatha' before Last of the Tuatha. Tuatha units would be recruitable everywhere - but no longbowmen, bards or monks.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

BTW, I think that it was mentioned in a dev diary that the late era is an "unit era" so I guess that many of the nations have stronger units, steelier plate armors and less potent mages.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Yes, I recall that too, so if late era means the advent of mechanical powers and thus heavy armored units, etc. Which one is the high magic era? Early era, were powers are still primordially raw and mould the face of the earth?

I wonder whether the available magic spells will change with the era one plays in, i.e. mechanical men are only available in late era, while the demon summonings from the early era got forgotten slowly... That would be interesting!

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

The point is... um. I don't have Dominions2. I own only demo.
Ocassionally I go to my friend who's got full version, and we pretend we can finish one game in just one evening. Then we start another game, because by the time we see each other again we tend to forget what was the game about. And where all the scouts are (*B0rsuk looks at Kristoffer/JK in a threatening manner*).
So I mostly play demo. You can still have some fun with it. Eventually news of Dominions3 reached me. It made me uneasy about buying full Dominions2, because it would become obsolete - more less.

However, there's one BIG obstacle for me buying Dominions3, and I'm quite worried about it. Dom2 is being sold (to my knowledge) by shipment only, and it is very, very hard to find a way of transfering money abroad. Banks in Poland don't support it, generally speaking. I know because I recently did a research (I was going to buy full new version of DROD). My internet bank doesn't allow transfer to other countries, so I would have to
1. Create an account elsewhere (it costs)
2. Allow them to charge me (about) 50zl just for transfering money abroad
3. Pay for Dominions, which would be something like 40$ = 120zl.
This means at least 190zl - assuming I can set up an account for free (unlikely). To compare, my half-time job gets me circa 650zl monthly, and I didn't mention paying for studies (2400zl/6months), food, clothing, etc. I would gladly pay the equivalent of 40$ for the game, but I'd be mercilessly ripped, and there's lots of beaurocracy in my way. I hate beaurocracy. My friend was lucky, he was in the USA last year.
If you didn't get it at this point, B0rsuk is very frustrated.

Kristoffer: Thanks, you've been very helpful ! Your insights are very inspiring. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I wonder if ability to take "special" theme and, say, Restless Worshippers would really change anything. I just learned hard way that not taking Order/Productivity is effectively a suicide. And there are some themes with Sloth/Turmoil...ugh.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

I think we've been pointedly ignoring the real topic of this thread for long enough. Not like all those other nations were ever more than a thin smokescreen, anyway. Let me just get us back on track:

R'lyeh. Discuss.

Last I heard, there were aboleths involved.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Yes, intresting is the word...and it could have some real effect on play strategies...

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Borsuk brings up a good point in a tangential manner. I know this thread is about the themes upcoming in dom3. But I *hope and pray* that there have been some UI advancements! Being able to find scouts would be a treat. As would finding equipped magic items on commanders. The list goes on.

Yeah, really Kristoffer. Stop playing the Sphinx.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

There are UI changes. All commanders' items are shown above each commander in the main menu (very small, but discernable).

I like sphinxes. Also I do not wish to end this thread by telling you what dom3 is like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

YAY! All praise the mighty developers! I'm already enjoying Dom 3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

That's really neat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But what about scouts?

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

You can already find scouts with the "N" key.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

And also, with the F1 key. Still, it would be nice to see a small Cloak icon on the main map screen above all provinces where sneaking units are present.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Ha ha. Yeah we all know about the hotkeys and menus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But there really does need to be a visual indicator for scout locations. Its a pain to cycle through all the scouts which I know are already in place in order to find the ones that still need to move.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Or a way to mark units to be left out of the 'n'-key loop for this turn (like in Warlords), e.g. an alternate hide/defend command or simply an alt-n key or so which means 'n' plus do not get back to the current unit/group unless is exit&reenter this turn somehow.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Apart from technical issues like user interface improvements or new server options, or to-be-expected stuff like new unit types & new spells, or the three flavour-variants of the game in the form of the eras, what will be the most significant change to gameplay itself?

• Perhaps a renaissance of the terrain changing dominion like in Dom1, somehow superimposed on the new graphical maps?
• Maybe the introduction of terrain features and obstacles to the tactical map?
• The splitting of tactical combat in phases of 24 rounds, each representing a single day (hence round = 15min) and the possibilty of battles stretching into several days, with part fatigue recovery in between days and the reformation of non-routed troops for consecutive days via a special tactical setup (initial placement, secondary placement) and the restriction of some battlefield spells like storm, army of lead, etc. to last only a limited number of days as well of the delayed arrival of troops on the second day or third day depending on the number of provinces and speed the units moved? (i.e. Arco attack a province of Caelum. On the first day, Arco battles the PD and the wingless who moved in from an adjacent province, while the high seraphs flying in from the distant captial wont appear on the battlefield until the third day has dawned...

Just some thoughts, so what else would we not expect for Dom3? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Speaking of the Man-Tuatha.
Chronologically 'Last of the Tuatha' theme comes *after* the regular Man, AFAIK. You can safely call it 'Return of the Tuatha'. So what I had in mind, is the 'Golden age of the Tuatha' theme, that is, NO humans and lots of magic, then humans only and still a decent magic, then 'last of the Tuatha' - great mix of units, and somewhat worse magic (because these Tuatha, the only ones with a random pick, are some damn expensive)

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

New nations: So far, only one new nation is specified, althrough squirrels claim we'll get several new nations total.

So, we are getting at least Indian nation.

Furthermore, to my post suggesting Arabic and Slavic-like nations (wishlist thread) Kristoffer replied (more less)
- there will be no slavic nation, because he didn't research the area well enough. It could come in a mod. (doh)
- to "arabic" suggestion, he repplied with silence. This makes it perfect speculation that we are going to get arabic -like nation, too.
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Shameless self-promotion: Motivated by Kristoffer's repply, B0rsuk has begun researching slavic culture a while ago. Stuff from before christianity. Funny fact: Polish people were christianised (by force) starting with 996 (after Christ). Poland is often regarded as one of bastions of christianity.
In XVIII century, Church wanted to examine the situation. They sent people to several remote villages in the woods. Result: villagers never heard of Jesus and Maria !
This is because nobles and peasantry actually lived in separate worlds. Feudal system survived much longer in Poland than in rest of Europe. Even today, if you adress an adult without "Pan/Pani" prefix, you're perceived as being overly familiar. Remains of feudal system, no less.

Blah blah blah... This means B0rsuk is going to mod a slavic-inspired nation to Dominions3. Not to Dominions2, because B0rsuk owns only a demo. B0rsuk believes he'll be able to buy Dominions3.
For people with clue<=0: records on pagan Slavs are in bad shape. Church tried to do it's best to erase all trace. But here's short summary of what I found:

-tribal structure similar to democracy or even anarchy. MOst importand decisions were made by elders. Words describing rulers come from other languages. Priests were respected, but didn't have excessive power.
-many worshipped gods, most important of which was probably Perun, god of fire, sun, thunder, and warriors. There are other fire gods, too. For this reason sunday is a holy day. It's still a holy day because Church had tendency to overwrite pagan holy days. Sources say all slavs worshipped sun and fire. (fire magic)
Affinity for nature, it was also very important for ancient Slavs. Wise women possessed good knowledge of herbs and healing (...) (nature magic)
Deep belief in fate, curses, charms, "evil eye", fate...One of major gods - Weles/Wolos dealt with oaths, mysticism, spells... Don't get on a bad side of a witch, or she'll curse you. (a bit of Astral magic)
- worship of warlike gods - they weren't exactly most peaceful of nations.
- national heroes will include Baba Yaga for sure, possibly Likho, too.
- lots, lots of spirits and demons - ones associated with homestad, wilderness...

PM me if you'd like to help or can provide some info about pagan Slavs.

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

Regarding Ulm, I do not see any need for a separate branching timeline.

Base Ulm is obviously the first one. I have always seen the Iron Faith theme as a short-lived corrupt transition stage between standard Ulm and Black Forest.

Even the descriptions lend some support for this. In base Ulm, magic is solely in the hands of the master smiths and the nations trusts its brawn and military might to stand off its enemies.

In the Iron Faith theme, the control of magic has passed from the master smiths to the priest orders who are fanatic zealots with little grasp of how magic works and whether it is safe. They have little magical training and compensate with religious dogma and persecution to rival the Marignon inquisition.

Black Forest is the logical outcome of this setup. With the Iron Faith priesthood infiltrated from within and corrupted, civil war flares out when there is an attempt to return to the more traditional ways of the standard era Ulm. This allows the agents of the corrupting power (Ermor or whoever else) to do their malign work unnoticed and their scheme culminates in the destruction of the Keep of Ulm, the death of the god of Ulm and teh corruption of the land when they unleash the Malediction.

It makes for a relatively seamless story that has no alternate timelines.

What I'd like to know is what the devs think of this little interpretation and how close it is to what they envisioned.

Edi

Re: Dominions 3: Speculation Wars
 

B0rsuk's idea sounds pretty intresting, but what about units?

I had a project to make a Kalevala based nation for Dom II but I lost my intrest after I quite heavily reworked it. It had warrior-poet-mages with Nature-Air-Fire magic, wise-men with 1 random magic and light-medium infantry...

Also, arabic nation is quite possible as Dom III seems to follow Dom II's path of expanding the nations out of Europe and I'm sure that the area is quite rich in the magical mysterious of old times. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Edi's theory also feels quite correct...