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What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
I don't know how most of the entrenched community (especially those of you from Dom I) feels about this topic, but I'd like to offer my opinion as a still fairly new player to Dominions. I don't really play Dominions very much. I played the demo, and I paid retail for the game, but after a few games, I just can't bring myself to play it again. The reason? I think summoning magic is too necessary for winning the multiplayer games. And, if it is used in Single player the same way it needs to be used in Multi Player, you can utterly dominate your opponents. Dominions II has a nice range of Empires, a nice range of units, a huge range of spells; thus, a varied range of available tactics. The problem is, none of the truly winning tactics seem to rely upon all of the nuances that can arise when you mix the Empire specifc traits and units with all the other factors. They do seem to rely on summoning magic, however. Now, what Empire you choose will affect when, how and which summoning spells you use. It also affects the early game strategy. Supposedly, some Empires use magic more than others. Truthfully, I think they all rely upon it exactly in the same way. Some Empires have more and varied magical options open to them, but I can't think of a single empire that can rely on any of its non-magic special abilities to win a game.
Now, maybe all this is intentional. It could be that Dominions simply isn't the right game for me. However, with all of the 'content' that Dom II has, I find it very hard to believe that it was intended to be the "summoned armies game". One other area this comes up in Dominions is in some of the "must have" magic items that exist in the game. I read a very informative article that a WotC Magic: The Gathering designer wrote on good strategy gaming design. One of his points was that a "broken" piece was a piece in a game that the majority of players look at and say "why should I NOT include that piece in my strategy?" That's sort of how I feel about a few things in Dominions, either a few spells or a few magic items, maybe depending on which Empire you choose. Anyway, this isn't meant to be a threat or negative criticism. It's just my opinion on the few areas I think Dominions could do better in for Part III. And, if they aren't addressed, I can't say I would be willing to buy it. Which would be too bad, because Dominions has so much going for it. =$= Big J Money =$= |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
You're right.
This is a very accurate analysis and critcism of Dom2. It might help somewhat to try a game with
Unless you use some mods. E.g. you may mod the scales and the production settings so you get more growth, more supplies and more gold - all this will strengthen the conventional units somewhat. And if I ever find the time before Dom3 arrives (or maybe even afterwards), I'll finish my mod which roughly doubles the gems costs of summons and will make most of them require upkeep. This is a huge task, so I can't promise I'll ever finish it, sadly. A. edit: added sites setting |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
Even with the bias toward magic, Dominions still has far more content and depth in it than any other game in its genre.
But yes, I too think it could be even better if national troops played a role throughout the game (configurable PD? more spells enhancing national troops and troop production? better gains from XP?). At the moment, to lessen the power of magic, you need to make research harder, reduce magic sites (on large maps), and ban or limit clams, fetishes, and blood stones. |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
Using small maps (10-12 per participating player) is all it takes make the game to progress quicker, where there isnt simply enough time to accumulate the gems necessary for lots of summonings... How long do your games take? Are they over after 40-60 turns?
Another thing is the playstyle: If all player wait and built-up, national troops are a burden by their upkeep alone. As soon as there is one aggressive player around, the game changes, as gems are burned by mages on the battlefield rather than hoarded and turned into summonings... But you are still right somehow: resources, upkeep, food, slow movement are much too much trouble for troops which get burned away by the next mage, if there are so many upkeep free non-eating critters around, which actually survive a blast and deal damage all by themselves. National troops can use a little boost (see mods) and battlespells should have casting times longer than a single turn. There are boosting spells, but most are area-1 or battlefield wide and I agree that there should be more 10-area boosts and more of the barksin variety, which also have some drawbacks... |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
Yeah your points are good BigMoney. I'm also saddened by how little national troops get used as well. Dom2 definitely has a bias towards summoned creatures for combat. The only way you could really get away with it is with an uber-bless on a small map as Arralen pointed out. But of course thats just a niche case.
That said, I still think that Dom2 is the best MP game out there. National troops aside, it still has the most depth of anything I've seen. Plus it really has the format and pacing for long term multiplayer games down *pat*. As for how to solve the problem of national troops... dunno. Maybe you could have it where mortal/national troops gain exp way faster? Or perhaps there could be national spells which effect only national units? Kind of like a bless but on regulars? That would make national units increase in power as you put in more research. Might also be interesting to have new buildable structures. They would add on a nation-specific site that would allow you to recruit really really powerful national elite troops on par with summons. Could make the sites cost like 2000gold and like 30gems of whatever that nation normally uses? Some kind of mechanic like that where you can put an investment in that is not based on Research and magic/gems. Oh - I forgot to mention the battlefield killer spells (wrathful skies, etc). Gonna have to do something about them if you want to have more emphasis on troops. Right now battle magic goes: single target, ball target, slightly larger ball, and *entire battlefield*. Might be nice to have some more granuality there and less extremeity at the end http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
I think every troop summoned or not should have an upkeep value attached to it (closest to being free should be your national troops, than neutrals, highest should be magic summons). Bane lords shouldn't serve me for nothing while commander joe costs me money every turn.(imho)
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Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
As I Said - doubling the gem cost and giving them a gold cost (upkeep = cost/15) will do the trick. I started working on the mod, but it's a hughe task and I doubt I'll ever get it finished without help.
Btw., doubling the summoning costs will make thugs from hired commanders more viable, and forged low-level items more valuable. Atm, who's going to forge a spear for 5 nature gems if he can get 10 or more vine men for the same amount of gems? |
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Limiting the time of service of a summon, thus turning higher summons into mercernaries paid with gems instead of gold? Hmm, not sure if I would like that... Otherwise, undead/demon pretenders receiving discounts on summoning might then present a bridge between both systems. Let's hope that DomIII improves that situation, without loosing its endgame-flavour as a war of gods and magic where mortal pawns are consumed by the dozen...this is important too, isn't it? |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
You don't have to wait for Dom3 - modding Dom2 gives enough possibilities to rectify the shortcomings IMHO.
So any volunteers to help me ? |
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Non-mindless commanders, maybe units too, should have some kind of an upkeep cost though. There isn't any reason to use national units over summoned ones. It would be nice to have a reason to do what I've been doing all along. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif In Master of Magic, only national units could become experienced. This might work in Dominions as well. Creatures like Devils should have to fight for their first star as much as the Velites fight for their third or fourth, as the trident-wielders have already fought for centuries in the depths of Hell from where they were summoned. |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
Well, flavour is important, but game mechanics are more so. There should be some restriction, and it is not too hard to come with explanations, e.g.:
Again, the restrictions for national troops are plenty, thematic and useful, but summons are a bit out of the way. I am not saying though that ALL summons should require upkeep - wolves already need food, mechanical men need resources to heal, etc. - but a bit of variety cant hurt the game, can it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif --- I agree on the experience issues, as I wrote in an earlier tread months ago, experience for national troops should be enhanced. Luckily, mindless troops do not get experience already... |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
i was thinking of something like that, maybe summons cost gems to maintain, and will either
A:slowly drain your lab supply B:Drain commanders held supply if no lab is present or C:slowly decay/lose health overtime this would be a realatively small amount (a percentage of summon cost perhaps) and although would trouble small amounts of summons would easily start to cripple players with large amounts of said creatures unless they clam in which case they will have a big advantage wether this rule exists or not (and clamming hopefully will be harder in dom3) |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
I do not oppose clamming, since it isnt an issue if your games are finished by turn 50-70. The current balance mod is way to restrictive in that respect imho, e.g. as Machaka I had real trouble to forge a few fever fetishes to keep my "flaming arrow" archers hords going without the managing hordes of scouts shipping gems...
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Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
just as a little off topic note how would a flaming windguide combo work? just wondering . and yes although not a problem on small games they generally dont tend to get summon heavy so........
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Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
That combo works quite well. Tho I think only Arco can reasonably implement it.
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I think that base income should be increased, not effectiveness of scales. Of course, if base amount of gold/resources was higher, scales would get you more, too. But I don't like the concept of scales being a requirement for decent conventional army. |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
I think that lowering the price of national fighting units (not mages) can make armies of normal troops more of an option.
After all, there are some pretty powerful national troops almost for all the nations. For example a mod that halves the cost of all recruitable fighting units. (almost equivalent to doubling the cost of all summons, except that mages are doubly more expensive which further hardens the requirements for summons) |
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And I don't see where I suggest you would have to pay additionally in scales if you want to build a conventional army. After all, you have use decent scales to do that with the basic settings already ... On the other hand, it's not so much about making positiv scales better, but make negative scales more costly. Atm, lots of people go for negative growth and negative productivity to feed the points into high magic / double bless strategies. IMHO, death scale should really hurt. And as there are only random events to kill pop but no to give free pop, having real high growth-%tage with positive scale wouldn't hurt either. concerning troop cost With troops costing only 10 gold, there's only so much you can do about the pricing ... qm already made lots of troops 20% cheaper in his complete balance mod, and I like the changes. But there's not much room if you want to differentiate between milita, light, heavy infantry and special elite troops ... . |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
National troops should be upgradeable. At the moment they derive rather less benefit from magic research than mages, summons and SCs.
Suggestion: Castable perma-upgrades: These are a set of spells which confer a permanent bonus on mundane humans or similar. Fire resistance, demon blood, lycanthropy, undeath, etc. The key feature? Only one upgrade per unit - they don't stack. Even so, it gives you a lot of options to play with when it comes to national troops. |
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I don't understand how more strain on commanders when in end games normal commanders are rarely used at all. |
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And I still like the idea of a buildable site which allows access to even more elite national troops. Like say only your Prophet is allowed to build a single site which has some profound cost... Maybe you need to have so many points of total dominion before you can build it. Or it costs an absolute fortune in gold or time? But when this unique nation-specific site was built, you could then produce your nation's uber-elite units. |
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I don't think allowing more or more free troops or restricting magical troops is the answer.
I think the answer lies in expanding the content behind national (and independent?) troops. How about something like custom troops? When you want to create a custom soldier, You get taken to a window where you start with a basic naked infantryman, cavalryman, or etc (no pictures http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif). Then, you choose what sort of training you want, like militia, regular, elite, super-elite, and each higher option costs more gold. Then you're taken to a window with your national weapons, like a glaive, pike, spear + tower shield, composite bow, and falchion + tower shield for Tien'Chi, and you pick a weapon, which costs either and/or resources. Then, you're taken to another window where you pick your armor, like leather or scale, and you pick cuirass, hauberk, or full, with better armor costing more gold and/or resources. Different nations will get different national weapons and armor, or troop types, and etc. Atlanteans would have something like "Atlantian" and "Shambler" instead of "infantry" and "cavalry" This way, you can make "normal" Dom2 scale soldiers, or, for a lot more cash, you can make soldiers competitive with summoned enemies. Another way to make national troops better would be to simply make better troops recruitable. Some factions have pretty pathetic selections of troops, often with redundant roles. When you've gotten down to it, few nations have more than two troop types. Maybe just my two cents. |
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Besides, everyone who favors the "beef up national troops" approach seems to be overlooking the thematic dissonance that sort of fix would entail. National troops, with the exception of Niefel Jarls and whatnot, should not be able to defeat mid- and high-level summons in a fair fight. I suppose it might be balanced for a squad of heavy infantry to bring down a mad, undying god from the underworld, or a gargantuan flying statue with foot-long claws, or a brood of giant snakes whose skin can melt iron, but it would also be downright ridiculous. Either you're a hero, capable of picking your teeth with trees and chasing the sun into hiding with a scowl, or you're a mortal. In the latter case, you've got 12 HP, tops, and no amount of skill or determination is going to change that. On the bright side, there are plenty of alternate means of making national troops viable without granting them power beyond mortal ken. For instance, A) Create a niche for them. Going toe-to-toe with a wight or devil should never be a good idea, but a few tweaks to unit gold and resource costs might see them come into their own as patrollers, raiders, skirmishers, whatever. B) Don't strengthen national troops, but price them much more efficiently(and/or raise the cost of summons, give them gem upkeep, et cetera). In smaller battles, where supply is not an issue, national troops would have a quantity>quality edge over most summons. In larger battles, they'd still make a strong backbone for an army of summoned shock troops, flankers, and so on. For an even larger battle, they'd still be so competitively-priced and expendable that they'd play a useful support role, if only as a meatshield or as missile support. Awfully similar to option A, save that the idea here is for national units to actually have the advantage on an open battlefield, rather than simply in a few specialized roles. Note that this may require that something be done about spells that effect the entire battlefield. An army that can be effortlessly routed and half-annihilated in one casting of Wrathful Skies or two or three of Bone Grinding is no army at all. C) Tweak research and the magical economy so that summons only begin to dominate later in the game. National troops would still serve no real function in the endgame, but they'd play more instrumental a role in the early stages of the war, when the infrastructure for the later stages is established. Sort of a gradual slide towards obsolescence, rather than a near-instantaneous plummet within the first two or three research levels. |
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I'm on the side saying that national troops shouldn't be competetive with summons (with the obvious exceptions), except for the cheapest crappiest summons, with which they are already competetive. If someone else has spent years of dedicated research to be able to summon serious nasties, why should I be able to match such an army from turn 1 just by clicking "Recruit"? Vice-versa, why would anyone research summons when they can do just as well hiring dudes, and divert their precious research, gems, etc. towards magic items to make their hired guys even more powerful, or combat spells to kill off the enemy's summoned guys even more effectively... No, summoned troops should be more powerful than those you hire. Hired troops are for growing in the early game, and depending on what you research and how you play, they can still be useful mid-game. One of the neat things about Dominions is that the power level grows so astronomically as time progresses and yet things still stay reasonably balanced. Proposals that would allow for the power of hired troops to increase as the game progressed are interesting, as long as that increase in power requires effort to be spent developing it, but making them much more powerful right off the bat would throw the balance way off, I think.
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Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
I like how the Conceptual Balance mod handles things. It's the result of a lot of playtesting. National troop costs have been lowered and no brainer, devastating spell combos (Staff of Storms/Wrathful Skies) have been made more difficult to achieve. Unit enhancing spells have been made less expensive, allowing buffed national units to be more effective later in the game. Items, in particular, have been modded to try and eliminate the "there is always a best choice" problem. The Super Combatant remains very powerful but is no longer all powerful and different unit/summons/item mixes are more viable. There is room for both summons and national troops.
At least that's the idea, and I think it's working pretty well. |
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I think the problem lies in the fact that summons get stronger as the game progresses, while regular national troops do not.
If it was possible to divert magical research to technological research to improve your troops, it might contribute towards making national troops viable later in the game. Maybe you can add a "techonology" tab to research, where you can choose to spend RP on technological advances, so in that tab, instead of "Enchantment" and "Conjuration" you would have "Infantry Weapons" and "Cavalry Shields", and instead of spells you would have upgrades, such as "Sharpening Stone" which increases damage for all weapons by 1 or "Combat Training" which gives all newly produced units an expirience star etc... |
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Many of the suggestions here would shoot micromanagement through the roof. While it would be nice to be able to enchance units magically, quickly choosing the most experienced, least wounded units of most useful types from hundred or so soldiers would take time. Another research tree would also be a nuisance, and I imagine most nations already know of the "Sharpening Stones", and that the more non-militia have already undergone "Combat Training" (just compare a Militia to a generic Light infantry).
I still think I'd like to see a way to have national units play a big(ger) role in DomIII, but Jeff, Ygorl and Vicious Love make good points about the absurdness of mere humans standing against unnatural, supernatural, or even b]big[/b] enemies. |
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i think being able to research upgrades for items is a good idea and after reading a litttle of what everything does i doubt it would add much micromanegement
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If better armors can be researched, and mages will research those, doesn't that screw Ulm with its "better steel but less magic" policy? And why play Ulm if the only thing you get is a head-start on others on the arms war, when you can't get as far in the magic war?
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I think I have an idea how to make nationals scalable without increasing micromanagement.
-------------- National troops would get predefined bonuses for each additional fortification you control. Makes sense, as you need them to produce national anyway. Flavor-wise it would be something along the line "The garrison of Blahuageuawraarhsaark made some improvements to heavy crossbow design and we can now use it nation-wide" or " new forging techniques, or news of national hero/propaganda (inspiration;see soviet Russia for reference), source of better ore... To stop Watch Tower abuse, it would be NumberOfForts*FortAdminValue (no I have no idea of Dominions variables). -------------------- Edit For those of you who think that "you can just start producing nationals for free - therefore they should suck" - nationals require forts (say 300-450 gold, 3-5 turns to build, and a commander) - Process of building a fort can be interrupted. - forts need adjacent provinces to work properly - resources, unlike gems, don't carry over to next month (seems like, doesn't it ?) - there's a hard limit on how much you can recruit in one turn. On the other hand, you can burn LOTS of gems in a single turns. - you can get gems from another player, not true with resources. Technically you can get away without magic sites for some time. - you can keep all summoners in one spot, forts force you to expand. - many national units require temples (usually 200 and a priest to build it) or labs (200 and a mage). Combined with 450 fort, this means 850 gold, multiple turns of building and commanders. - I'd say population killing spells are quite effective. Growth scale is slow. Your ability to buy conventional troops is affected by cold, heat, unrest, productivity, order.. |
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I dont like the course of this discussion: National troops should not be more powerful, neither should summons be less powerful. Summons should be powerful and become slowly more and more abundant as the game progresses.
However, allmost everything in the game is capped by either a hard limit or by some sort of upkeep (gold,supplies,...). So why should the majority of the summons be exempt from this upkeep principle? |
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national troops shouldn´t be more powerful, but buffed national troops should be more powerful.
Right now you can cast every troopbuffing spell on any number of (human) national troops and they´d still be unable to take out a decent SC/thug. And unmodded troops are far too expensive for their power compared to mages. For example once conj 3 and evo 4 are researched, every e2 mage can kill dozens of lightly armored troops with bladewind. And he doesn´t even have to be near the front lines. |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
One thing I've always found odd. If national troops play such a small role in the overall game, why do they have such a good and well used UI for recruitment? Whereas the UI for summoning is poor at best.
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Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
Hmm. Is it possible to mod upkeep down to 0 for national troops? Then, the only real difference between national and summoned troops would be that some summons don't eat food.
(And also, that one has to invest in forts for troops, vice mages for summonses. Given that a fort can only recruit in one spot, where a mage can move to summon elsewhere, a slight advantage to mages over forts. A bigger imbalance, imo, is that mages summoning can be concentrated in the safety of a fort, in a single province. Think : To go to an extreme, Clash of the Titans has what - 40 provinces? That means at most 40 forts to recruit, limitted by resources and gold. But with a single province, 50 or more mages can summon. Big advantage mages, _especially_ as resources doesn't carry over turn to turn.) Here's a thought : something like 1/2 all resources from a fort only carry over to successive turns. IE : If someone has 1 province with a fort, but isn't buying troops, 1/2 the resources piles up from turn to turn, only for that fort. This balances things a little bit with the mages, and also has an OOC justification : the troops are hired with gold, but the smiths can be forging weapons and armor for months or years before the troops are recruited. Another thing that might help balance things : allow a fort to recruit troops the first turn after it's besieged. Gameplay-wise, this helps balance things against instant-army attacks ( Tree Lord popping in with 200 troops ) and is also justifiable in roleplaying / thematic terms : when a walled city is besieged by invaders (especially those of a different religion, ie all besiegements in Dom2), a certain amount of the locals inside are going to volunteer to serve their city/nation/god. Again - this merely helps to balance another of the huge, major, issues favoring summons over national troops. Right now, if your province is invaded, 0 troops can be recruited, no matter how many commanders you have there. But if you had 20 researchers, that's 20 summoning spells that might be cast. Huge advantage, mages. ( Mind you : I happen to think that summons should be better than your average national troops. But right now, 0 upkeep, ability to gain while besieged, etc, give summonings too many overwhelming non-combat advantages.) I've taken advantage of this a number of times : playing nations like Man, Pangaea, Arco, you wind up with boatloads of researchers with nature magic. With a mere conjuration 1, construction 2, every bard / dryad can be shifted to summoning very cost efficient quantities of vine men every turn. With enough nature income, I've held for ages. There is nothing comparable for national troops. If cities (forts) could recruit while besieged, I think it would be more balanced. There'd still be starvation for troops inside the city; there'd still be a limit on how many troops could be marshalled, compared to the invader recruiting everywhere. But it would give a little balance, a little more of a chance to the defenders, in a situation where, well, all the women (or men) capable of wielding a weapon would be joining the military to protect their men and children from looting, rape, pillage, plunder, etc. |
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As far as weapon tech research screwing Ulm and a few others : what if it didn't improve the weapons and armor? If there were researchable things that .... could increase morale, or give better troops formations in battle, 6 scriptable mage spells vice 5, give a 20% increase in attack speed to troops, a little extra armor, a little extra chance to avoid an arrow, those seem like they might #1, fit more with Dominions - the average game ends within 40-100 turns, less than 10 years. Huge increases in weapons and armor don't tend to come in that span of time. Mmm, arguably magic might not progress as rapidly either - but tactics change rapidly enough to change the face of war. The hedgehog, the flanking maneuver, blitzkrieg, etc : tactics can transform the face of war. All of these would be worth researching : but nations whose strength is in their troops to begin with would get greater benefits than would nations whose strength was mages. Ulm, Abysia, Jotuns, with solid troops, benefit more from incremental improvements to the troops than others do. But everyone would still want the improvements, especially if researching "tech" was separate from researching magic. Maybe every fort generates weapons research; every military (non-mage, non-stealth) commander does as well. Maybe it's tied to Productivity (said scale needing some boosts, especially in the base game), or luck, or the inverse of the magic scale. Just some thoughts - but they do require changes in the base game, not just mods. |
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I agree that summons should have an upkeep associated with their pathcosts as well as some national troops having upkeep possibly in gems but goldcosts as well.
The game can be better balanced with more options for upkeep, however this does not change the imbalance in combat vs cost vs magetime vs mobility. Any of those can be addressed many ways. Though, like I said, I agree. |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
Hi everyone, it's my very first post on this forum.
I play Dominions for the last 2 months. I think that its one of the best strategy game ever. I'm only concerned by what I'm reading here: It seems that national non-mage and non-priest troops become useless in late game, were summonning rules. I think it's obvious that even trained Velites can't beat an Uber Arch Devil summoned directly from hell, but I also think that players shouldn't have to rely on summonning to win. To preserve diversity in term of strategy, I think many strategies have to be viable (by strategy, I dont mean just choosing a different path of magic to summon another NNE summon). A solution can be like this: in some other games, national Super-Elite troops (Devils, Dragons, etc...) can't be recruited at the beginning, you have to build expensives structures while having a strong economy. I agree that this game is based heaily on magic (and I approve it), but I don't think that high level summoning should be the only viable option for very long games. |
Re: What it will take for me to purchase Dom III
What if experience was made more powerful (ten levels, say) and also restricted to national troops and other recruitables?
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Yeah, winning strategy seems to be too dependent on getting a SC (Air Queen, Ice Devil, etc.) or mass summoning certain things like Vine Ogres.
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If you're talking single-player, perhaps. The computer AI isn't very good at handling different SCs. Human opponents, though, can usually come up with something to oppose whatever you throw at them. A single SC, in particular, is begging to be Charmed or Herald Lanced or Smashered or Moon Bladed or Maggotsed or Banefired or Mind Duelled or taken down by means of whatever weakness it almost certainly has. I really like the progression from wimpy things to awe-inspiring effects as the game moves, and I also like how that progression can be so different depending on your strategy.
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If you want to increase the relative power of national troops without making magic significantly more powerful then you should mod the amount of population needed for each unit of gold income. Increase the base income by 250-300% and the relative cost of troops compared to mages drops way down as the mages can only be built one per turn while your troops will show up everywhere.
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The real solution, however, is to play multiple games on small maps, instead of a single game on a massive map. |
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