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-   Weird Worlds: Return to Infinite Space (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=125)
-   -   Why I won't be buying the game - detailed report (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=26886)

Tanelorn November 29th, 2005 08:24 PM

Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed report
 
Hi guys. Before you start thinking that I am about to make a flame post, I promise you that I'm not. I am going to share my reasons for dissapointment after trying the demo, and give some constructive criticism, however. I hope that as you read my post, you don't get the feeling that I'm dissing the game. I think Wierd Worlds and its predecessor are quality games and worthy of praise. Yet, I also feel that there are alot of gamers out there who need a bit more for this game to be satisfying and engaging.

I have a pretty strong background in game development. I have worked as lead programmer on training sims for the USMC and Coast Guard using modified versions of off-the-shelf games for the last 3 years. And like many modern day gamers, i've spent alot of time modding or tweaking games to make them more enjoyable / playable. I was actually one of several armchair developers who were paid by Electronic Arts to mod Battlefield 1942 into Desert Combat, for example.

As should be obvious, my experience with WW:RtIS is limited to the demo, and I keep that in mind. But the issues I have with the game are more about the game system itself, and far less with the actual content. The content is moddable, thanks to Digital Eel's great decision to make the game modder friendly. However i think that most of what I found lacking in the game is not something that can be modified by the user. So let me skip any further introduction and get down to the details.


- Shallowness of content
The major problem I have with WW is the immense shallowness of the material. I know shallow can sound very negative, but I'm speaking more about how we don't get into much depth over any of the new and interesting things / events we encounter. Most everything we encounter is skimmed over and not covered in any depth. An adventure isn't an adventure if you merely glance at something you haven't seen before and then move on. The fun of adventure is discovery and study. Imagine if shows like Star Trek were only about visiting strange new worlds just long enough to say hi, take a couple pictures, and leave. There's a huge desire that isn't being satisfied when we get such little detail. Now, I'm not talking about adding extra paragraphs onto all the text descriptions. I'm talking about making the galaxy we are exploring more dynamic and fleshed out. Below I will describe in more detail what I'm getting at.

- Astronomical curiosity not satisfied
For example, we fly to a new star system. We are given a little paragraph of what the star is, and another of the planet that is there. But we aren't allowed to appreciate what this system has to offer beyond being shown a picture and a little paragraph. What about other planets in the system? What about examining the planets in detail, their terrain, their surfaces, their moons? What about actually exploring the planets themselves in search of artifacts? There are a few games I have played where a large part of the fun is this kind of exploration. Spaceflight and Elite 2: Frontier come to mind, and those are as old as the hills. If this game fleshed out star systems to include multiple planets that could be interacted with, my sense of adventure would be much more satisfied. I want to SEE the binary stars, the volcanic planets, the giant humming beehives covering the surface. This will satisfy my desire for true exploration.

- Great combat mode, little detail
I really like the space combat in this game. It looks great and feels great (although I hate it when my ship keeps turning away from where I want it to look in close combat). But I was suprised at the lack of detail in the weapons / shields, etc. I would like to see numerical values for damage, shield strength, range, etc. Maybe this could be an option you could select, so that gamers who don't like to be flooded by details won't be bothered by it. In addition, I think a health and shield bar should appear below your ships so you can easily see how they are doing without having to mouse over them.

- Connections
Ever see that great BBC series Connections where you start with an item, then trace all the technologies, people, and places that were required for that item to come into being? Well, with all these really neat items we find throughout the galaxy, almost none of them have any connection to anything else anywhere. I find robo pirana fish on barren planets, snails and amoebas on volcano planets, etc. How about there be a deeper connection between the star systems, the planets, the objects, and their histories, so we feel like this is the only planet where we could find this unique kind of artifact. Or, Ooh, this system has a water planet, so maybe we will find an underwater creature here. It's like saying that Indiana Jones didn't have to go to the Aztec temple to find the golden tiki statue, that thing had a random chance of being anywhere in the world!

Allright, there are plenty more smaller things that come to mind while I play, but these were the main issues I had with the game that made me not want to keep playing it. The game felt alot like I was playing a single player board game like The game of Life, where you hop along the board and get random cards from the deck. For me, that's not rewarding enough. Perhaps I am just not within the target audience for this game. But when you think about it, you have lost a sale *because* the game does not appeal to the audience I am a part of.

How about the rest of you? Do you wish the game had more depth and was more satisfying to 'explorer' types, or is it fine as is? ""

ZylonBane November 29th, 2005 10:43 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
No mystery here. Sounds like you want the game to be BattleCruiser 3000AD instead of a quick 10-minutes-of-fun game as it was designed to be.

Fingers November 29th, 2005 10:48 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
"The game felt alot like I was playing a single player board game like The game of Life, where you hop along the board and get random cards from the deck."

Thank you, this is exactly what we were going for and succeeded in doing. Weird Worlds is a coffee-break game for those who want to play something during a coffee break but cannot stomach another game of solitaire, mahjong or minesweeper. It's a short story, not a novel.

The game YOU are perhaps looking for is called Star Control 2 (there's a free remake called "Ur-Quan Masters" that I hear is good and runs on modern systems). It has the dozens-of-hours, hundreds-of-planets exploration gameplay that you want. I don't think it'd be possible to improve on SC2 for that particular kind of gameplay, and wouldn't dare to try...

jab2565 November 30th, 2005 01:26 AM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Lol, I own Star control2 and I love it. That was the reason for me beat testing weird worlds. I own the original star control 2 as well, for the 3d0. You may want to escape velocity nova, it gives you a universe to explore, but there really isn't a guiding story to it.

Tanelorn November 30th, 2005 12:03 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Ok, understood.

By the way, I am a huge fan of the Master of Orion series. I still play MOO2 on my laptop. Can you imagine how cool MOO2 would be if it were upgraded to Wierd World's graphics level and space battles were animated to WW's quality?

Ever consider developing a game like MOO2 using WW as a start? I'd chip in on the labor in a heartbeat if I knew someone was considering that...

Phoenix-D November 30th, 2005 02:27 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
WW would be a poor start to a MOO game for everything -except- graphics, really..

Fingers November 30th, 2005 05:44 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Master of Orion is one of my favorite games of all time... I wasted countless hours playing it back in the day. And Rich (Ripcord O'Reilly on the forums) is a huge SC2 fan. When we originally started thinking about "Infinite Space" it's no surprise that it was going to be the biggest and most complex space 4X game ever made.

We had all those features like hundred+ star galaxies with multiple planets per star, multiple interconnected tech trees, ten races with ten ship types each ranging from fighters to two-mile-long super dreadnoughts and so on. Our planets even had several layers of different minerals you'd get access to with more advanced mining technology (core-sucking, anyone?), all kinds of stuff we all love to dream about. There's a couple of really interesting screenshots out on the net somewhere http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Now, why didn't we finish this game? Several reasons. Mainly, games like MOO3 and imperium galactica 2(?) were coming out and there's no way two or three people could compete with those guys and their megabucks. Secondly the game was becoming so complex that it'd be impossible (at least for me) to write a competent AI, so it turned into a multiplayer-only title and there just aren't enough people playing these games to get together ten of them, especially given that a game might last several weeks.

So basically, it would have taken several years to complete the project and there was no way to tell if anybody would even notice it by the time it was finished, so we abandoned it. A couple of years later SAIS was born out of the work we did on "IS" using a lot of the art assets and background info etc. This time we actually did some planning and designed the game based on what we could realistically do, so it was finished before we got too tired of working on it.

It's interesting to note though, that almost all of the races, weapons and ship systems from the "big game" live on in Weird Worlds, in one way or another. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Arralen November 30th, 2005 06:05 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
... some names, and 3 words:

Moo2, Moo3
Imperium Galactica 2, Imperium Galactica 3
Stars!, Stars Supernova

Space Empires 3, Space Empires 4, DominionsPPP, Dominions 2


Finish that game !

Tanelorn November 30th, 2005 06:49 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Quote:

Fingers said:
Now, why didn't we finish this game? Several reasons. Mainly, games like MOO3 and imperium galactica 2(?) were coming out and there's no way two or three people could compete with those guys and their megabucks.

Well, as we all know, both those games flopped big time, and I don't think there's another MOO killer in the works anywhere. I would consider going back and re-assessing your original project. There's quite a large crowd of people who like that kind of game and wish there was a game that took everything they loved about them and put it into one bag.

In my opinion, the market is ripe for a 3rd party Master of Orion clone with 2005 technology.

jab2565 November 30th, 2005 06:54 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
I would love to play another game like SC2, the only difference would be a random universe generator that would shift where all the planets and races were.

Fingers November 30th, 2005 08:17 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Quote:

Tanelorn said:

Well, as we all know, both those games flopped big time, and I don't think there's another MOO killer in the works anywhere. I would consider going back and re-assessing your original project. There's quite a large crowd of people who like that kind of game and wish there was a game that took everything they loved about them and put it into one bag.

In my opinion, the market is ripe for a 3rd party Master of Orion clone with 2005 technology.

Well, we know that now but didn't then... In any case if MOO3 flopped after all that money and effort it makes the whole thing even riskier, and it doesn't help that any advances in technology translate directly into extra development time. Weird Worlds took us over a year and a half to complete (as opposed to six months for SAIS) and that's probably too long already.

Phoenix-D November 30th, 2005 08:24 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Quote:

Tanelorn said:
Well, as we all know, both those games flopped big time, and I don't think there's another MOO killer in the works anywhere. I would consider going back and re-assessing your original project. There's quite a large crowd of people who like that kind of game and wish there was a game that took everything they loved about them and put it into one bag.


Space Empires V. There's also a couple other 4x games in the works, like Sword of the Stars.

Arralen December 1st, 2005 05:27 AM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Obviously, no-one understood. Ok, silly me.

Stars!, Stars Supernova
Backed by Interplay. Died in beta due to differences between devs and Interplay. No further development, as the devs don't get their rights back: Fans offered to invest >$100.000 t get the game finished, but no chance.

Moo2,Moo3
Atari killed it by forcing a beta release.

Imperium Galactica 2, Imperium Galactica 3
IIRC it was turned into some horrible space shooter with different name, because shooters make more money then complicated 3x games. Bet this was not the devs choice.


Space Empires 3, Space Empires 4, DominionsPPP, Dominions 2
where all made by a single dev, or two.

I don't know if Aaron hired some artist or programmers for SE5 - or if there where other causes to go for big brand shelf space.


Actually, when I fist fired up WW I thought: This game, these guys have potential for a big space 3(4?)X title.

Shadowcat December 1st, 2005 07:25 AM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Quote:

Imperium Galactica 2, Imperium Galactica 3
IIRC it was turned into some horrible space shooter with different name, because shooters make more money then complicated 3x games. Bet this was not the devs choice.

This is tangental to your point, but you actually have this one completely backwards.

Nexus: The Jupiter Incident is the titled you are thinking of, and it was indeed to be "Imperium Galactica 3" at one stage in its development. However the IG3 name and associated gameplay changes were more or less foisted onto the developers by the then-publisher and IG property owner CDV. The game did not start out with any connection (or real gameplay similarity) to the Imperium Galatica series, and once they were dissociated from the IG name the developers reverted to the style of gameplay they had intended to make all along.

Tanelorn December 1st, 2005 01:09 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Quote:

Fingers said:
Well, we know that now but didn't then... In any case if MOO3 flopped after all that money and effort it makes the whole thing even riskier, and it doesn't help that any advances in technology translate directly into extra development time. Weird Worlds took us over a year and a half to complete (as opposed to six months for SAIS) and that's probably too long already.

From what I know based on reviews and online friends, MOO3 didn't flop because it was an impossible task, it flopped because of bad game design and publisher deadline pressure. I think that saying "if MOO3 flopped after all that money and effort it makes the whole thing even riskier" is a very dangerous approach to the reasons why games fail to succeed.

I think if there was better leadership in MOO3's design and development, and they weren't under such a time crunch, many of us here might still be playing it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I'm not trying to say: SAIS and WW are bad games and your original idea was the way to go. SAIS and especially WW are great in many ways. But I also dearly wish that an improved MOO2 was out there or under development, and that it would incorporate all the features that many of us SC2 and MOO2 fans have been wanting to see in a modern MOO clone.

I really do think that a MOO clone with some strong game dev intelligence behind it would be sucessful and fill in a gap that has been widening for years now. The more recent attempts: MOO3 and Imperium Galactica just didn't have what it takes.

Don't you have a deep desire to see your ideas for your MOO clone come to life, after all that work and planning?

James Sterrett December 1st, 2005 09:31 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Don't forget Galactic Civilizations and the upcoming Galactic Civilizations 2, in your quest for a MoO-beater.

Speaking as a big fan of MoO 1, MoO 2, and SEIV, GalCiv is in the exalted position of a game I don't dare start playing, because if I do, I can't stop. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

Fingers December 2nd, 2005 05:42 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Quote:

Tanelorn said:
Don't you have a deep desire to see your ideas for your MOO clone come to life, after all that work and planning?

In a way, yes and no. I like these games and it'd be cool to have one with all of our ideas in it. But what makes SAIS and by extension Weird Worlds special is that they're not clones of anything that someone else made.

The only way I can play Weird Worlds is by creating Weird Worlds... But if I want to play a 4X space strategy game there are already many to pick from, some of them very good. So I don't *have to* make a new one. It's not just a competitive market thing even though I often use that as an excuse, but also a feeling that there should be a good reason for the new game to exist. You need that just to stay motivated.

Tanelorn December 6th, 2005 12:21 AM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
How about a small side project that is mostly about space combat using the WW combat system but with more detail? Maybe a bit like Sid Mier's Pirates! game but in space...

Zogu December 7th, 2005 12:49 AM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
I wouldn't compare MoO-like games with WW. I mean... I play WW when I have 30 minutes to spare and I want to space out. I play MoO-like games when I want lose my social life, my girlfriend and my job.

Zogu December 7th, 2005 12:54 AM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
ps: MoO3 was deadly boring.

ps(2): I agree with some of the criticism. Everybody would love WW to include (rip off?) some of the best features in SC2's combat system. This game had more variety in the ship designs and features. And more features in combat such as: higher speed, more inertia, gravity (planet), asteroids... this added some depth to the combats.

ps(3): Exploring planetary surfaces was very cool in StarFlight II and in StarControl II.

splintercell56 December 18th, 2005 08:16 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Gal Civ and Gal Civ 2 are comparable to MOO. Both are great games, however the latter one is still in beta.

Galactic Civilizations Webpage: www.galciv.com

Galactic Civilizations 2 Webpage: www.galciv2.com

Fingers December 20th, 2005 07:01 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
I also recommend Starships Unlimited: http://www.apezone.com/

Unfortunately I find the latest version less fun than the original (which is reviewed here: http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=2370 ). The graphics are nicer but you no longer find interesting stuff on every planet. This was probably done to reduce randomness and make the game last longer, so if you agree with those goals you might like it anyway. I personally still play the old game because it's different each time you play and you can finish a game in one sitting.

Zogu December 20th, 2005 09:11 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Wow, this game looks great and actually PLAYABLE. (Unlike MOO3 and Homeworld 2).

Shadowcat December 21st, 2005 06:52 AM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Durn. I'm sure that I saw a boxed Starships Unlimited for very little just a few months back in a shop that I didn't expect to find software in. I didn't know what it was, so I ignored it. I'm pretty sure it was gone the last time I was in there.

James Sterrett December 21st, 2005 08:32 PM

Re: Why I won\'t be buying the game - detailed repo
 
Apezone's Battleship Chess is also a lot of fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


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