Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

I always try and strive for realism in my battles but lately I have been getting this sinking feeling when I go into a battle and I use airmobile or mechanised infantry. What in your opinion is the best way to do this in game? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

In depth responces please.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

Have you read through the "Game Play Notes" section of the manual yet?.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

Yes but I was wondering if anybody used different methods.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

On defense,I try to move them in an ambush position on the enemy approach, where they unload out of sight/range and wait for the atack. On offense I'll use them to mop up or go after artillery or OBs. I haven't had much luck using them when the opposing force is still unbroken and aggressive.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

Fair enough.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

I rarely use infantry in armor battles unless there's a strategic choke point in close terrain. They're soo slow and easy to kill, especially in their expensive APCs. So if you want to know how to use them, take my advice- don't.

Against an enemy with less long-range weapons, like tank guns, your APCs might survive long enough to dismount infantry. On the attack, infantry are easily suppressed if they are in clear terrain and they enemy is in cover, so you'll probably need a strong number advantage or lots of artillery to keep the enemy's head down. You probably know the tactic where you lay down suppresion fire so another one of your elements can close in and assault the enemy- does that work for you?

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Personally, I find airmobile to be of limited use in most games. The problem is that they are so expensive and yet so vulnerable. A single SAM and you can lose an entire helo (already an expensive loss) PLUS whatever troops you are carrying. That, combined with the fact that they can be turned back rather quickly by even machine gun fire, limits their utility -- for the most part.

Despite the above, I will occasionally use airmobile if the situation permits. In a large meeting engagement, for example, airmobile will often provide an excellent way to get to the objectives very quickly, thereby changing the game from meeting engagement to OPFOR must advance on me.

On maps with clear chokepoints, if it is meeting engagement or I am defending, I may put a small high-morale team forward, with an artillery spotter. They can do a great job of slowing and/or temporarily stopping enemy advances along such a route. In the end they die, but in the interim, my forces gain a few extra tempo towards the objectives.

Finally, if the map is such that I am concerned about rushing armor forward (i.e. heavy woods or similar terrain where armor routinely runs into groundtroops risking assault), and there are a limited number of objectives deep in enemy territory on the map, I may buy a bird or two of airmobile to use in the final rounds of the game, to mop up the last objective(s). By then I've usually found or destroyed most SAMs and enemy forces are thin, so I can afford to fly straight in. This way I don't risk rushing a 200+ point tank through trees and having some lame foottroop get lucky on an assault and take it out.

Thats pretty much how I use airmobile.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

A great idea about airmobile use, Pepper. I never thought of using them in the last few turns. Maybe they do have a use after all. But for the most part, if you're playing on any fairly open terrain, the enemy tank reserves will squash your weak airmobiles.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

As part of a combined arms plan. If you are not sure what to do with them, don't buy them. They are absolutly wonderful for ompletely destroying your opponents Boyd cycle. They also soak off (tie down) his reserve.
I don't buy airmoblie. Too Expensive. I do buy helios to lift regular infantry. Then I do a shuttle service.
If you are losing helios then you are not using them right.
Transport helios need to be used in concert with AH's SEAD air and arty. DO NOT land them in a hot LZ. That is hollywood stuff and should be left for hollywood and stupid Colonels that stay at high level and don't get shot at.
Like I said, they are best used to create confusion in your opponent. Get them to the DZ by flying in trail. That means you have a AH flying point with your slicks flying in line behind him. Move the AH a couple of hexes, then move the slick thru the same hexes. If there is something nasty lurking, the AH will be shot at first. They have better EW and Armor ratings so they have a much better chance of living thru the experience. The other half of the AH section should be the tail end charlie Drag). I like to put the AH with the highest experience rating back there. When the point gets shot at, the tail end charlie does a pop-up. That will draw more fire, hopefully away from the point. Rally the point and see if you have the shooter spotted. If you do and you point is not damaged, the tail end charlie fires at the shooter, unless there are a whole bunch of shooters. Be patient. If you have stumbled over a lot of AD, remember there is a soft spot somewhere else. Use your mobility to back out and try again at another place. Your AH's are not there to kill things, they are there to protect the slicks. So if the going gets tough, go someplace else.
If you have scout helios use the reassign key to set up sections of a scout and a AH. Let the scout run point and the AH drag and most of the time you will get your troops to the LZ safely. Depending on how alert your opponent is, you can use the same flight path several times.
Like ALL tactics, there is a counter for this, but I'm not going to tell you what it is. We might play one day.
BTW, this is straight out of the US Army manual for heilo operations. Or it was, I think they are doing a serious rewrite after that Iraqi famer shot down a 25 million $ AH-64 D with his 1850's smoothbore musket.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Armored infantry with those oh so expensive and easy to kill IFV's are best used as a reserve. Use them in the main line and they will get chewed up fast, giving your opponent lots of points. If the terrain is open, they are ok for your second line and the flank. I am referring to the age old formula of 37% in the front line, 33% in the second line, 10% on each flank and in the reserve. This is the basic distribution of forces that have been used since the Romans, who borrowed it from the greeks (I think, no direct evidence, but the Romans borrowed so much else). The units change, and the weapons get more lethal, but that is all. Most players buy mech units for the main line because they are impatient. Buy regular infantry, you have the time to march them into position more often then not.
Stalin said "Quanity has a quality all it's own"
A modern MBT costs about 400 points on the average. A rifle squad, with an anti-tank weapon that can kill the MBT costs about 20 points. Lets say 25. So you can buy 1 MBT or 16/20 rifle squads. The MBT is faster, but it can still only be in one place at a time. My 16 rifle squds will crawl forward 1 hex at a time and Kill the MBT with only a few lost. I can space them wide and cover 33 hexes, or 1 and 1/2 Km's. Or I can space them close and cover 17 hexes. Either way, I'm getting shots at 1 hex with high to hit percentages. So I now have 400 points and you have 75. Works for me.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Interesting idea about using infantry offensively, C of Red. The only problem is that infantry are soo easy to pin down using artillery or machine guns. And if the infantry get too close, then the tank can just run away while the artillery and MGs continue to attrit them.

The airmobile assault that you mentioned is pretty expensive- 500-800 points for a single assault helo and maybe 100-300 for the transports adds up to a 2,000 pt. + assault force, not even counting the infantry you're carrying. In most battles, it wouldn't be worth it. And I think I know the counter you're talking about- buy a whole bunch of MANPADs or something that helicopters have a hard time killing.

About the Iraqi farmer shooting down the Apache, that was just a propoganda move. In reality the plane was shot down by something else. Baghdad Bob just claimed that the farmer shot down the helicopter with his gun.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Usually in battles I use airmobile or attack helicopters (ideally a Hind) to attack enemy artillery positions and the HQ unit. Depending on the map I might substitute the helicopter with an APC or a transport plane.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Myself, I find a few trasport helos useful. If and only if the map allows some useful terrain masked insertion routes. (Night can be terrain masking, depending on enemy access to radar).

I do not buy the airmobile coys, as a rule. A separate helo unit of 2-3 does fine. Pax come from the leg grunt comapany I generally leave in the rear, covering my gun line etc. from enemy desants (or deep armour thrusts that get round the main body).

1) I dont use them in the early game much - maybe to fly about deep in my half, if the enemy has no LR AAA assets, and visibility is high. They can scout out moving vehicles etc looking "slantwise" from my lines.

2) In the early game, if the terrain allows it, they can be very useful to sneak an AOP or scout detachment int the rear/flank. Dismount out of LOS, fly the chopper back, and use the AOP or scouts to makee-looksee in his flank or rear. Use them to call down spotted arty fire in his rear zones, and DONT reveal them by trying anythingg ramboesque, unless they stumble over something worth alerting the opponent over. (his HQ at 100 yds, or 6 uragans parked beside 6 ammo trucks within 250 yds say). Better to call fires on these though, than use rifles and reveal your presence (esp vs a human player).

Against a human player 1 above - can cause him to get a bit defensive about his rear zone, and to hold back a reaction force. (In WW2 a similar trick to make the opponent wary, is to have a few tigers, and deliberately expose them to view early on, to induce "tiger awareness" in an Allied player. Now hide your targets and your human opponent KNOWS you have the beasts, but WHERE are they going to appear - puts him in a nicely defensive frame of mind, one hopes!)

3) In the end game - is where the platoon of helos are now useful, to move the defensive leg rifle coy over into the offensive or mop-up mode, as a taxi service.

4) In campaigns, they are useful as air ambulances to get high experience beat up core crews or squads to the rear.

5) Even if not going forwards, the helo platoon is still useful to reposition ATGM and/or inf-SAM teams, or ammo containers, or to cycle these back to ammo dumps to recharge. Also, mid game - use to reposition your security leg infantry co into covered hide positions to block against possible ememy thrust lines from ambush, or to provide flank security by observation perhaps. (mobile road blocks etc). Also - can be useful to put fresh infantry into an ongoing firefight, here we use the defensive rifle coy as reserves. Land in a masked area near the fight and walk to reinforce via a secure route (LZ too close to the fight could get arty on the chosen position, or be unlucky enough say to find some enemy flankers!). Sometimes - land the leg grunts well to the rear and clear, and use the unloaded APC of the troops currently in the firefight as an airport taxi service for the final leg. Plan it in advance and pull the APC back to greet the helos as they land, of course. Also useful to move AOP teams to better overwatch positions as the battle progresses.

6) Full-on air desant tactics are really only viable into "cold" LZs, or where the enemy AAA is not too sophisticated (a few AAMG and possibly a few inf-SAM of obsolete type). But the LZ WILL need a preaparation with attack/scout helos (even just to verify it is clean), and working the LZ over a few rounds with HE fire before the drop to sanitise it.

7) DONT expose the helos to any significant AAA threat, especially when loaded. Use terrain masking, if the map allows it (fly behind villages and tree lines and contours).

8)(for any battle type) - any AAA assets that do reveal themselves as you bumble round the battlefield, engage with arty assets ASAP. Remembr where they are, for future route panning.

Air desant is not a great deal of use in the face of any main-force enemy, or even a halfway organised one. Crete for example.

It can be useful against a low tech enemy (e.g. Viet Cong, Mujadeen) if in the assault (lower numbers (points) of defenders). But even then - a "crash bang" insertion can be costly if you choose an overwatched LZ or happen to choose an ingress route which has all his AAMG covering it, so you SHOULD scout out the planned approach line and DZ for a few moves with recce/attack helo teams before deciding where the slicks should go. (slicks to stay waiting in the rear and preferably behind masking terrain while you scout with other assets).

There is no place in modern warfare for jumping out of perfectly good aeroplanes on big handkerchiefs. This should only be contemplated in areas with nil or almost nil enemy presence. (In other words, where the drop will be mainly "administrative" in nature). Not unless you like the enemy to have a bit of target practice. Again - see Crete. See D-Day for a successful use of the paper hankie method (Drop where the enemy generally is NOT, bar a few sentries etc and do it at night! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

The big force-multiplier with helo transport is really the repositioning of your rear-line or reserve assets (e.g artillery or mortars say). They are really just fast trucks!.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

I most strongly disagree about the 'meat bombs'. Paras have their place and time. They just must be used in quanity. I NEVER drop less then a battalion and NEVER on the first turn. I prefer to wait until my opponent is thourghly committed on the firing line, then I drop the paras on his rearmost v-flags or on his arty park. 90% of the time When I drop 70 to 80 para squads in his rear on turn 18 of a 25 turn game, I can hear the screams 2 time zones away. The problem is keeping my main forces alive long enough to put the knife in his back.
By waiting until the later stages of the game, the AD is pretty much wore down and or out of ammo. Like anything else in SP, its a combined arms deal. If you don't have air support, you don't buy paras. Plus it helps to have as many small mortars (81's or 83's) as you can get without skewing your force structure. Every time you get a sign of AD, drop some mortars on it. Normally a few dozen air craft will swamp the AD. That means when you load your air transport atthe start of the game, you need to plan out your fight right then and there. You can do that most of the time with a para-drop, since you will have the initative for that turn. The transport planes enter in roster order, unless you want to juggle them around, which isn't a very good idea. So you want to put your better units ( experience and anti-tank units) in the later arriving aircraft. I like to concentrate my drops, although there are circumstance where a dispersed drop is better. That is mostly on a map with shotgun flags and rough terrain.
It's costly, since you will need 9 companies of elite troops, which will set yuou back a ways. Plus the transport and some SEAD to ride shotgun. I figure 4 to 5 K points for a drop. So you need to be playing a 10K point battle to even think about it. I have never lost a battle where I got my paras on the ground. I did tie one once, but that was against a wily old vet and he still hasn't quite forgiven me. The very best part is that from the next game on, your opponent will be looking over his shoulder for those devils in baggy pants.
Plus it's a hoot to watch the replay.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Mustang, the Farmer saw the Helio. He lined up his trusty blunderbus and squeeeezzed the trigger. There was a loud bang and a cloud of black powder smoke. The Helio fell from the sky.
Those are the actual events that happened as agreed to by both the farmer and the Helio crew. Now as to which of the rounds that were put into the Helio caused it to quit flying, that is a matter that can be debated. Differring claims from both sides. But the facts are clear. The Helio stopped flying due to battle damge caused by small arms fire. The LAST small arm to hit the Heilo was a 150+ year old smooth bore musket. Here is another little fact. After that incident, the Army started their re-write of the book on Helio tactics.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Now - APC troops.

Some have opined that these are useless.

Not so - if used properly.

I am not a great fan of the "everything plus the kitchen sink" AIFV. These are really too expensive for the task in question - moving grunts from fighting position to fighting position, and protecting them from MG and rifle and HE fire as they do so. I would rather have the ATGM on another dedicated platform - e.g an accompanying BRDM-sagger platoon.

Infantry are not expendable, but APC must be considered so - they are just tin taxis. If the APC is getting to the cost of a MBT, something is wrong. (Or, you have an army rich enough to afford them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!

If I have such APC in a campaign core - I am willing to lose them, if it saves a rifle section or MBT which has built up hard-won experience. Experienced core APC are nice to have - but not necessary as they are really just there as a taxi service.

I prefer the BTR type of APC. I like one with a small but useful autocannon, if I can get it. Fast is good. Useful cannon depends on time frame. It has to be able to reasonably reliably duff up enemy APC and light recce vehicles. The 14.5mm is useful against most NATO APC, the problem ones being marders, Bradleys, and Warriors when they arrive. FV432, M113 types with only an MG they eat for breakfast. Any armour beyond basic bullet-proofing is only useful if it buys you protection against the main enemy APC-cannon threat. If you really cannot defend against say 30mm cannon, a few points of armour is wasted points. use "hide with pride" tactics in that situation.

Essentially - the APC should not be too expensive (Unless this buys something concrete against the current enemy. Marder with ATGM may have enough defensive armour to be immune from a soviet force who uses only BTR, with the accompanying tanks doing the execution of any enemy MBT that threaten them, with some help from the mounted ATGM. But I would still take the marders sans ATGM, and offload the ATGM task to overwatching dedicated missile carrier, given the choice).

As to APC with thermal sights - nice to have, but if accompanied by MBT and light scout cars/tanks/dedicated AT vehicles which DO have thermals, not really that vital. If you have the option - possibly only equip the lead company team of the attack with the thermal-equipped model, any supporting teams may possibly be better value without it, and the excess points spent on say a bit more artillery, or ammo carriers or a few more inf-SAM etc.

The turreted MG (and the 2-MG punch of the BTR is good, also the long range of the 14.5 can be useful for e.g picking off morars left out in the open) is ideal for infantry support one you have dismounted. If there is no AT weapon threat - keep the APC 1-2 hexes behind the walking dismounts, and use to fire at infantry and MG etc in support.

The HS-30 with its 20mm, is another APC I like (and in its time frame is one of the few APC with a decent anti-APC cannon). Also the early marder without the expensive ATGM, if fighting the soviets - it is a reasonable buy versus 14.5mm pact APC, but the 73mm BMP cannon if met is a problem if it is allowed to connect.

It is the job of the accompanying MBT to defend the APC against threats from enemy MBT or APC/AIFV which are too much for them to handle. APC should never act unaccompanied by thier "Big Brothers"!. The MBT should move first, then the APC. The MBT should execute any enemy MBT ASAP, and then move on to accompanying APC. If the APC have a useful cannon - fire them after the MBT and at the enemy APC. If the enemy APC is an AIFV and it has moved, its missile system will be useless. (one reason I like to offload that task to dedicated ATGM carriers in overwatch! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

If loaded APC are in a situation where they have been caught in a bad position, and you cannot motor out of it etc, then offload the infantry, they may survive the next turn even if the APC do not. APC are expenable assets, remember. You can always use a surviving APC once offloaded to pick up the straggler squad whose ride has been trashed later on. Meantime, assuming he gets his current headache sorted out, he can march towards the battle on "shanks pony". He will still usually be much closer to the action than any leg grunts.

In the defence, APC infantry are useful as they can be repositioned quickly, unlike leg elements. But I would probably tend to keep an APC co (+tank platoon) in reserve, and use leg rifle coys dug in as the main force (with a tank platoon supporting each dug in coy).

The AIFV can be useful in the defence if its missile is worthwhile for the period, and you have a useful LOS. That is because it will be relatively stationary, unlike in the advance. If you have the points, it may be worth considering an AIFV mech unit defensively. (But it may be better buying some dismounted milans and ordinary cheapo APC !)

The defensive is about the only place I would use AIFV as the missile is useful for thinning out the attackers units, provided they are reasonably vulnerable to HEAT, and provided there are reasonably long lines of fire. But these will still be a back-up for the MBT who should be the main killer element. I'd still rather use a useful (minimum effective cannon armed) APC for the APC role, and separate the ATGMs onto a dedicated platform like a BRDM though.

In the advance - the APC (almost) always follow the MBT. (the 2 scout car section accompanying advances ahead of the company of course!). With the Soviet style 3 tank platoon and 1 attached APC platoon, the APC is primarily there as spotter/security (e.g. the enemy try to sneak up assaulting inantry or inf-at) and to sniff out close terrain.


Once the enemy AT threat is eliminated (your MBT have executed all visible MBT), the APC (even an MG armed one) is a mobile MG pillbox. Use it first, ahead of the riflemen to biff up soft targets, assuming you are out of RPG range. If there are enemy squads in RPG range - use the acompanying MBT to supress these before opening up with the APC armament. Then use the infantry small arms, or move them if the enemy is now supressed enough. Keep a tank with all shots remaining as a reserve though - your grunts may spot a significant previously unspotted element at the end of the turn, so keping a tank of the supporting tank platoon loaded up with shots in reserve is wise.

APC should never be exposed to any significant AT threat.

The key thing to a mech infantry approach is to avoid entering open killing grounds (threat exposure) as much as is possible. Use the mobility of the APC and accompanying tanks (never leave them alone, always have "big boys" to protect them!) to use covered approaches towards where you want to go. (dark and smoke can do this job). Each company team (tank heavy or mech heavy) should have a scouting section - even 2 jeeps will do at a pinch - clearing the intended route ahead, but not too far ahead that they are unsupported though. When you anticipate contact, work over the planned route with at least a section of mortars just ahead of the scout element as a delousing plan - and once you bounce him, you now have some arty on-task in the contact zone to quickly adjust onto the actual contact. You may even blow up an enemy vehicle and get a clue from the wreck!.(consider buying ammo supply if you plan to continuously pound the ground as delousing).

Because your tanks have accompanying infantry elements, they can fight in close terrain with more confidence than your tanks-only tread-head opponent. You can use a wood say to laager up and fight him from ambush and sniping positions, and the supporting infantry now make his job of trying to outflank you through the woods a more "interesting" experience, because the tread-head did not bring any infantry to the party. (Also - tread-head types who ignore infantry usually also often ignore arty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Having said all the above, my preferred combat solution (a group tasked with taking an objective cluster of a 3 objective map) is basically the German solution (at least I have been told they do teams this way). Here, instead of cross-attaching platoons to make integrated mixed type company teams, we instead marry up a pure tank coy with a pure mech inf coy, which then operate in close cooperation as a combat group. (presumably the more senior coy commander of the 2 coys is in tactical command). So my combat group of choice looks like:
1 Tank coy
1 APC coy
(where every APC platoon marrys up with its corresponding MBT platoon)
Plus - if not already provided from the tank or inf coy above (integrated support platoon say):
+ 1 or preferably 2 recce sections (prefer something useful like scimitar, ie can reliably kill light armour, than a ferret if using light tanks/armour cars), otherwise a BRDM type platoon with integral scout team dismounts.
+ 2 sections of 2-3 SPM for delousing/close support
+ 1 or 2 sections of AAA assets (gun or missile)
+ 1 battery of 105mm+ arty dedicated to the direct support of the group
(if it is acting as the point group of an attack/assault, then at least a batallion of medium arty dedicated to delousing its intended approach march to the objective)
(optional)
- tank destroyer team (gun or missile, or inf APC carried dismounts). If my MBT can handle anything the enemy has, I usually do not bother with ATGM vehicles. This team (e.g in a campaign core) may well be the only AIFV type mech platoon I use (e.g a BMP platoon where the main force uses BTR), as a flank security element/deep reserve.
- Ammo units (use to resupply the mortars, tank destroyers, and also may be useful for cannon armed APC which have low ammo burst capacity, or tanks where the critical rounds are low (e.g if using T-5X which have only 4-5 HEAT rounds, and the OPFOR has say Centurions..)) Add to taste.

Remember that using combined arms tactics, the sum is greater than the constituent parts. One of the few things in life where 2+2!=4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif!

Cheers
Andy

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Air drops are the cheapest and safest way to get a lot of troops from point A to point B. It gives you a great deal of flexibility because you can drop them almost anywhere (provided enemy AD isn't too dense), and the enemy will have to divert a significant force or watch his rear areas get toasted.

The only time you don't want to use them is when the enemy has too much armor and/or artillery (or SAMs, of course), but other than that the paratroopers will do just fine defensively, tying down enemy.

edit: Didn't see your APC post, Mobhack. But it looks like I agree with you that you should only buy light APCs for the most part.

Interesting thing about the helo, C_of_Red. What's your source? I heard it was just some propoganda move, and I don't see how a musket could cause enough damage to down an Apache. Where did it hit?

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Well, dropping para's (in any numbers) on or close to VH's in the last stages of the game is generally considered to be a 'gamey' tactic. It makes use of the purely abstract system of a fixed (and limited) number of turns. As your own post implies, the enemy ground forces would usually be strong enough to chew up the airbornes if they had had the time. Which in RL they most likely would have. Last stage paradropping is mostly just a trick to avoid the deadly counterattacks that are sure to follow.
Although it is not often explicitly stated when setting up PBEM games, dropping para's near the end (or even in any of the second half of a game) is considered 'not done'.

Narwan

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

By who? This is the first I have ever heard of that. Greybeard wasn't thrilled when I dropped on him, but he didn't say anything about gamey. I think he would have if he thought it was. He went to some length to explainto me some of the other things he thought were gamy. Or is gamey anything that gives your opponent the advantage? Why exactly is it gamey? How many real world examples would you need to retract your statement, if not change your opinion? Is turn 10 ok, but turn 11 bad? Do you always expect your enemy to co-operate with you? DO you schedule his air strikes and arty fires for him? What is the difference? I'll bet you hate pre-game arty, which was SOP in WW2 for the Allies AND the Germans, if they had the ammo. Some of the Soviet pre-game bombardments went on for days. In DS in '91, the pregame air stikes went on for weeks. If I could do that would you consider it 'gamey'?
I'm am straining to be polite here. But I will say I have never heard such tommyrot.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Mustang, which hole? The Helio had hundreds of holes in it. IIRC, the turbine had enough blades shot off that it was shutdown to prevent self destruction. At the time Doctrine for AH's was to form flying wedges and cross the ground at a few hundred feet. Naturally, when you fly over a few thousand infantry armed with automatic weapons, the golden BB factor goes way up.
No telling just which one of the thousands of rounds fired actually did the deed. In WW2, if several planes jumped one plane and all got in bursts, the guy that was firing when the target flamed or blew up got the kill. Or it was split. Of several pilots got the credit. So there is plenty of room for arguement on both sides. I think the AH-64 was on the way down when the farmer fired. There is no way it can be deternined if the farmer actually hit the helio. But since he was the last weapon firing at it before it crash landed, he gets the kill. The Army threw away their tactical manual for attack helios after that. I think the re-write is still cranking along.
Keep in mind that the skin of a helio is a thin as possible. The 'armor' is behind the skin, not part of the skin like a tank. That is so it can be pulled and replaced. The same idea as the bullet resistant vests. As the plates are improved, you can just replace them and keep the vest. As the armor gets better or damaged, it can be pulled and replaced without tying up the airframe. So a round will go thru the outer skin, hit something and bounce, going thru the skin again sometimes. Not many rounds stay in the helio, although the techs have to look for them.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Opinions differ on it. Some like to keep it more realistic, others don't mind using game features to exploit certain tactics. Same for how far in the game drops are allowed, opinions differ.
It is gamey (in my opinion) for exactly the reason you could have read in my post you replied to. It is using the games cut-off point to force a victory. I'm curious, how many real world examples can you give where the enemy tanks stopped firing at the para's 'cause they didn't have a game turn left?

Since the rest of your comments have little to do with the topic I'll refrain from responding to those. I have no problem staying polite.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

It is common to ignore last minute drops in victory conditions of wargames.

For example - the Wargames Research Group 1950-2000 tabletop rules in the "deciding the victor" section, has this senetence:

Which is clearly there to stop a potentially "gamey" tactic.

So - IF both players agree to allowing paras should thay choose do do so in a PBEM, a simple agreement to avoid landings after a certain move (75% of the contracted game length?) should suffice to kill any use of them as a "last minute" spoiler.


Cheers
Andy

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

The real world doesn't have turns, or V-flags, which makes your question silly. Please Note that no game can approximate the real world, so if that is your standard, then everything is gamey. One reason I don't play the WW2 games any more was the whole thing was to gamy for my taste. A 'typical' battle in the ETO would involve 8,000 points of allies advancing against a german delay of maybe 1,000 points. How often do you play one of those? On the Eastern front a standard Soviet attack would start with 10 to 20 tubes per hex firing for 60 turns or so before the 10K points of Soviets assault 1K points of germans. Done one of those lately?
On one hand you are saying it's gamey and non-realistic, on the other you wish to know what your opponents tactical plans are before the game starts. Isn't that a tiny bit gamey? By your own standards.
The most dangerous weapon on the battlefield costs zero points and is available in every nation's OOB. It is suprise. There is absolutly nothing that prevents you from droping paras also, if it bothers you that much, think how it will affect your opponent. No I see this as an attempt to gain an advantage thru negoiations. You are lawyering instead of fighting. The real world doesn't negoiate force limits on combat operations.
You could do the smart thing and keep a reserve. I pull my scouts back after about the half way point of a game and add them to my reserve, just to be able to deal with suprises such as paras. General Franks dropped the 101st ( or the 82nd, I forget which) north of Tikrit in 2003 to act as a blocking force and give the Iraqi army something else to think about. I'm sure Saddam would have loved to call Franks on the phone and accused him of cheating by attempting to 'game the system'.
The bast way to avoid the game ending dash for the flags is to negoiate pregame the victory conditions and just turn the flags off.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

It wouldn't be a totally gamey thing. The turn limit represents the fact that both sides are going to be exhausted after a while. After an hour of combat, ammunition and troops are going to be used up to the point that it's just not possible to fight much longer. This is particularly true with infantry, less so with mechanized forces. The fatigue factor sets in after a while.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Yeah right C, and dropping para's at the last moment so they can't be fought isn't 'lawyering' but real 'fighting'?
You really think you're the first one to think of this tactic? I noticed it's possibilities very early in my gaming career and after consideration decided NOT to use it. Ever. Because it is gamey. And I don't use what I find gamey tactics. By the way, there a couple of very gamey ways which make the paradrops a lot more effective and can negate just about any AA. You might wanna look for those too.

All rules players agree upon with each other work for both so there is no gaining advantage through negotiation. And if players don't agree on limits there's a very easy solution, don't play. There are plenty of other candidates out there.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

You forgot fear, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms.

I'll shut up now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

I myself consider Mobhacks tactics very effective and above all flexible. They work both against AI and Human players, and even when a human decides not to let you win this time, the flexibility of your combined arms force still gives you a fighting chance.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

I don't know if this is a best way but I guess works with my playing style.
I speed up PzGrenadiers and Marauders to strategic points before enemy gets to it and regroup infantry units so they have nice view. Depends what kind of terrain is but I keep infantry covered in trees or buildings and APCs at backline so ATGMs can't get those. Other cheaper APCs also would do fine, but I like that I have least one ace in my sleeve if enemy MBT shows up. Infantry ATGM is vulnerable to arty and enemy inf. so if they gets wasted out, I still have that one ace to use against MBTs.
Usually play with Germany at early 90s and I have problems getting rid of enemy MBTs, 2A4s are darn expensive so I don't have afford much else and 1A5s are crap against UK or US tanks, which against I play most of time. So ATGM APCs come handy then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

The top attack ATGM work well against the more expensive tanks, even if they have ARENA or VIRSS (because those run out of shots quickly). What I don't like is that a lot of these ATGM PCs cost almost as much as an MBT. BMP-1s and -2s cost only about 100 points and are fine because they can stand up to HMG fire and have heavier armament, but I never buy them because I consider it better to just buy heavier infantry instead of a heavier APC. You should stop buying Marders and just buy TOW-2B, RBS-56 or Javelin infantry teams if you can.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

One thing I've noticed about ATGMs is that the AI will target them first, especially as they come out of the helo or APC transport. I'm trying a mix of RPG/RRs in place of the ATGMs in the close engagements, due to the inabilty of my Dragons to get more than one or two kills before being destroyed. Maybe the shorter range weapons will be more survivable.
Will

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

It does seem to me that ATGM teams have a higher profile and are more prone to getting shot at. But if you want a survivable tank killer, buy a normal infantry team. RPG and like kinds of weapons teams are soo small that they're often killed by one or two hits.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

It is all a matter of how you use these units. The smaller head count of most AT teams makes them easier to kill, but also harder to spot. So ambush is the word, but I admit that wasz easy to guess. AT-heavy infantry sections have their advantages, but they tend to raise the overall cost of the formations to unpractical levels, and lack the flexibility of self-contained AT teams.

One big drawback of ATGM teams is generally their low ammo loadout. That's perfectly understandable for top-heavy missiles like a TOW or a HJ-8, but in game terms, the consequence is that you either hold their fire or have them closely followed by ammo supply units.

In recent-years settings I tend to use long-range TI-able ATGM teams, alongside high-vision FO teams, as long-range spotters at critical choke points or on good sighting spots. That adds the advantage of having some antiarmour punch to get rid of that critical dangerous vehicle (tank hunter, SP artillery, SPAA...) as soon as it becomes urgent.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

Just a bit of side note, it wasn't a 150-year old musket but a bolt action hunting rifle manufactured in Zbrojovka Brno, Czechoslovakia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers
 

I'd consider the last turn paradrops gamey tactics because this is using not tactics or equipment, but game engine to cause your enemy a situation he cannot win. It's equivalent to using fleet of trucks to drain op-fire.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

This is a bump from quite a while ago, but as there have been new players since then, I thought others might want to see this.

As I'm playing with a force were every infantry unit ethier has an APC, Hummer or Helo to transport it, I apprecieated Mobhack's advice on how to effectively use them. I would also like to think that I've learned a little bit from the few battles my force has had.

I discovered early on in MBT that while choppers are cool, can cover huge distances, call down artillary and can be armed with some kick trash weaponry, they are expensive and easy to lose. In two PBEM games, I lost choppers early and unexpectedly even when I thought they were in a safe location, or moving through a safe location. They also require resupply often and take a little time to load and move (what with haveing to land and all). With all that said, I do appreciate what they can do and when points, and (most importantly) terrian allow me to buy and use them, I generally get them. I use my Attack choppers for ambush and longrange shots on targets that no one else can get to while transport choppers work like longrange APCs, faerring troops and provideing the occational cover fire. They also work well for evac of important units, but only when there is a break in firing. It doesn't make sense to try to rescue an expensive ATGM team if there is a change you might loose your 300 point chopper too. I rarly ever take my choppers to high altitude, perferring to skulk around the tree line to keep them out of sight.

I keep my APCs close to my infantry squads, (too close acording to Andy), preferring to move them both together with the APCs in the same square. This does put them in range of RPGs more, which is very bad, but it does give me the chance to bugger out farther when steel rain starts to fall. The US M113A3 APCs aren't bad little units, but I must confess their soviet/russian counterparts are superior to my mind. The next camp I do with APCs will probably by Russian. I really like the Hummers with 40mm AGLs too. They make for great scout vehicles and their armorment can get through light armor. Granted they only have five HEAT shells, but it's better than nothing. As my current force is two platoons of MECH infantry with only two light airborne tanks to support it, I often find myself with my APCs leading. This acually suits my purposes rather well as I tend to play a lot more defensive than offensive. I'll find the enemy and then try to make him come to me. My reactionism isn't the best strategy, I know, as I got my butt handed to me by a very aggressive player, but it can work in most situations. I'm still branching out on tactics and Mobhawk's advice will come in handy.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

On the original question air mobile have there uses but only if the situation allows or warrants it due to there high cost.
Good masking terrain drop off as far forward as possible, you now have 2 choices continue on foot or act as scouting parties so main force can move in relative safety, losses its effectivness unless main force is fairy mobile to. They can then fall back mount back up & become a reserve to go in once AA is at an acceptable level.
Several hills to drop them off behind would be an example perhaps not on the best viewing spots as they could be pre plotted for arty.
The other use is more high risk & will incur losses so its a case of will the loses gain me time & prevent other losses. Going for chokepoints might be worth it, things like a river crossing control of the other bank or an idea of whats defending it can be worth the casulties. Timing is the key thing they will not survive on there own they are a distraction to let the main force cross in relative safety. Again several options trying for direct control of the riverbank could be very high risk but landing further back means his reserves are chasing them instead of moving to cover the crossing.
There main use though is as a fast response team once the enemy is already engaged cutting of routes for reinforcement & or route allowing for quick destruction of the enemy so you can hopefully get out of there before the arty turns up, encirclement in a nutshell.
But its always a high risk op hence there needs to be a reason to commit them, just like Paras there will be losses.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

The problem with paratroopers is, apart from that if their plane go, they stand a good chance of going down with it, they are at best a nuisance. Depending on the battle of course, they can be a threat to specific parts of the enemy, but even then, if the enemy has some experience, he only has to move them away from the area and them bomb the **** out of them. Since there are no special VPs or whatever, and you only use them to attack other units, their biggest problem is their very low speed.

For air mobile troops (aka using helos to transport troops), I have met only one player who was good with it and even then, he needed a ton of good luck for it to work even the first time he did it against me. If against a player that knows that you might do it, they are easy to neutralise. Unless you use your helos to transport the troops close to the VPs flags and that's it. Sort of, very fast apcs. If the terrain is favourable, this can work, even I have done it a couple of times, but it has one huge disadvantage to using APCs. They can't provide fire support or cover for your infantry if you need them, nor a quick way out of the fight.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

Very gamey but did this once as situation allowed.
Company of tanks & APCs about 20 vehicles making a run in the open to next cover which I was in a position to intercept just. Bit hit & miss on if my armour could destroy his tanks from the front so my helos swung round behind him drawing fire & turning around giving me targets which tanks engaged. Several Smoke dischargers went off so then drew fire with vehicles where possible then sent the helos the last bit landing directly behind a tank. Picked the ones that were covered by smoke & fired RPGs at point blank. Last few landed behind vehicles without cover but did not fire or took out troops.
What does he do now shoot at my tanks & recieve a hail of RPG fire to his rear or the reverse.
Lost a few airmobile units including a couple of helos while landed due to splash damage from own fire & the troops were smarting a bit but force was totaly wiped out. If he had unloaded a few more infantry or set more tanks not to opfire vs air it would have failed as they would have taken out my landing troops.
Forgot to mention they can be very handy in urban enviroments to though you have to be careful to follow the roads for cover. Drop passengers at delay postions or cut off exits. Helos can then risk attacking units you would otherwise have to move adjacent to. Can clear city blocks pretty fast this way then leave a couple of squads covering the road incase you missed one, once pretty sure helo nips back & picks them up or gives extra firepower if needed.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

On using APCs the main asset is mobility & giving the tanks good eyes by having infantry keep up with them who see far better, ignore infantrys ability to see at your own peril.
As I think Andy said tanks lead but try & get to a place of cover to launch an attack, treeline or whatever. Then the infantry move up first for several reasons.
Cheap if die because somethings on the other side & much harder to see, idealy they are not
They can look for targets & are in a position to spot any units opfiring they missed, makes finding ATGMs etc a lot easier.
They can also check out LOS if the terrain is difficult so your tanks move the absolute minimum knowing they have a shot.
They provide a close defence screen
Only now do you decide if its worth the tanks breaking cover.
Now the decision is stay & finnish the job or move & let the arty fall, having a taxi means you can avoid quite a bit of it & relocate to keep the other player off balance.
Concentrate on taking out his vehicles you can now use your speed to avoid his foot units till ready to engage them with your mobile pillboxs still intact if wish.
If contact is expected there should always be infantry on the ground to provide eyes helping prevent ambush. As your tanks are generaly moving at "combat speed" you can rotate your infantry droping one lot off while the others catch up, they do bounding overwatch to.

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

As far as the game goes,
Correct with a twist! Some soviet/russian transport helos can provide decent support to the troops (compared to their western counterparts). So if you're approaching a "hot" landing zone the player may consider the option to proceed with the landing rather then getting the hell(icopter) outa there! But in most cases transport helos must be treated as "fragile" units (more so when they're loaded).

Re: Best way to use airmobile and panzergrenadiers?
 

One pair of bugs I just noticed as part of some code work I am doing:

- In the current code, heliflopters landing in a mine hex do not test to trip mines
- In the current code, passengers debussing in a mined hex do not test for mines in the hex either.

So in the current code, the best way to clear mines is to lift some engineers via heliflopter and unload them directly in the mined hex.

It is also a good way to search for mines. Heliflopters can detect mines even if flying at ridiculous speeds compared to ground units and the end-turn dropped-off engineers can freely (no chance of a mine strike) have a look around at the mine detection phase at the start of their next turn (if nobody op-fired at them on debussing of course).

So - airmobile engineers are rather good minesweepers ATM.

This will all change! :evil:

The new code tests for heliflopters landing in a mine hex (can be damaged or immobilised as well as being killed just like any APC). Also the pax debussing (voluntarily or not) from any vehicle in a mine hex are tested for mine strikes too. Code for mine detection from helos will also change so they have to be going very slowly and at low altitude in order to detect minefields.

Andy