Pythium Strategies
 

Ive recently taken an interest in them but im really new to them so any tips (including god creation) are welcome

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

Well, Body Ethereal and Luck are wonderful spells that make any units much better at fighting. Some of Pythium's Legionaries are very good fighters even on their own... Principes are good, something cheaper might be more cost effective. It isn't worth actually mixing the units in my experience. Any way, Pythium has cheap 1S mages. So researching Alteration 3 (Body Ethereal) really gives your armies a big boost. This ALSO works to give a big boost to your big bad (e.g. Wyrm, Manticore) pretender; and as long as it gets to the actual fight and attracts enough attention, even a lone mage isn't in danger (although he could be killed by archers in the first turn, so place the Pretender and the Etherealizer in the very back of the battlefield).

Of course, as Alteration 2 and 3 hold many other protection buffs (Mirror Image, Mistform in Air, Earth spells for protection, Quickness in Water), a tough pretender with one or several of those could work very well.

Pythium has mages with all of water, astral and air. They also have cheap Communicants. The communicants and ALL their mages are sacred. Communicants share the casters' fatique among themselves, if the casters cast Communion Master (Pythium start spell). If EVERY Communicant has reinvigoration thanks to Earth 4 or more on the pretender... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif It pays off very well. Relief would be another good spell for Pythium, but you DON'T want Nature 4 and Berserker blessing for all those mages. Nature 3 would be nice, if you can afford it. However, you should be ready to lose Communicants in all long-lasting battles.
Communicants ALSO increase the mages' paths. 2 communicants are enough to raise e.g. common Theurg to S3, W2, A2 (or +1 to everything, I might have remembered Theurgs' magic wrongly). This only works in fights, but can give you much better Evocations, especially Air ones. Also, remember that Thaumaturgy has Mind Burn, Paralyze and then... Enslave Mind. All pretty nice spells, and Mind Burn is very useable even early on as it completely ignores armor and always hits.

As you want to build lots of Castles to recruit lots of Communicants, you want a cheap castle. If you want to have armies, Wizard's Tower is the choice. It is very expensive, though, so I wouldn't try this in multiplayer...
However, here are some possibilities:

Wyrm,
Water 2 and Earth 4,
1) to get Quickness, Iron Skin, and Reinvigoration 2 for all your mages and your Communicants; also access to Breath of Winter in Enchantment

Wizard's Castle, to pump out lots of troops, lots of Theurg Acolytes for Etherealizing the troops, and to build communicants once you have more mages and can really use the extra spells the mages can cast thanks to them.

Scales:
Order 1, Growth -1, Magic 1
More money, faster research. Simple, maybe overly so, but it gets you both a tough combatant to play with and bonii to your mages.

Early goals: Alteration 3 for Body Ethereal, Wyrm's boosters. Then Enchantment 1, to further boost the Wyrm. Then probably Thaumaturgy for mind attack spells, then maybe Construction, and more Evocation... The Wyrm already has Regeneration, so he probably won't gather too many battle afflictions.

Some other interesting builds to strive for could include Water and/or Earth blessings, and ways to utilize them. Unfortunately Pythium doesn't get many viable pretenders (Cyclops, Daughter of the Land, Blue Dragon). They aren't bad, but only Cyclops is a good bless pretender. Water 9 isn't bad for Pythium either: all the mages get 50% Quickness, and you can research Evocation for weak Lightning Bolts and Star Rays (or something), or already quite nice Thunder Strikes, and... Falling Frost! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I'm sure you know of that one. Simple E4 or E6 Cyclops can be very useful for Pythium, especially as even one Earth-pick Arch Theurg can make some very useful items with Earth Boots your Cyclops can forge him (Crystal Coin, Faithful, etc).
Stellar Cascades could overfatique opponents' ground troops if enough mages were casting it, Orb Lightning is good but has a poor range. It might be worth it to go first for Alteration 3/Thaumaturgy 2 for Quickness/Mind Burn on all your Theurgs, and the above-mentioned Ethereal Legions for the ground troops.

With Pythium, always try to take some Magic, and Order if you can afford it. Luck -1 usually isn't too bad, although even it can hurt pretty badly if you e.g. lose your temple early. You can afford a scale or two of Sloth if you plan to advance EARLY using your pretender, but Falling Frost is NOT early enough. A pick of Death probably doesn't hurt your supplies too much.

Lastly, try doing without a super-pretender. It is a big chance in style judging from the one pretender of yours I know, but an Oracle with some magic that benefits your nation and most points in good fort, scales and dominion can fare very well. As an example, S3E4 Oracle can have Wizard's Tower, Dominion 6 and 6 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif positive scales. Wizard's Castle probably isn't worth picking over a cheaper Castle, which would get you another scale, or a 60-point Fortress which would give you the scale and two more levels in Astral. Don't underestimate Order 2, Production 2, Magic 3 nation! This works with most other nations as well, but you might want to change the 4 in Earth to something else. This works especially well with anything that can take negative scales. Ulm, for example, can afford to be a economical powerhouse with good scales and slightly more expensive, but mobile rainbow mage pretender. 4 is probably too much in any path then, as Ulm has no sacred units or commanders, unless you want a spesific Global (like Forge of the Ancients).

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

Wow... impressive.

And happy birthday.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

that super pretender was to compensate for a lack of magic (thats my excuse) but i do quite like having high something (6ish) for a global, i was running a rime marriner with w6 s6 a6 and it did ok and i even got some ok scales.
using your advice i made: oracle with E4S4 wizards tower, 2 order 2 production, 2 magic 1 heat and 1 or 2 growth i'll see how it goes

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

that super pretender was to compensate for a lack of magic (thats my excuse) but i do quite like having high something (6ish) for a global, i was running a rime marriner with w6 s6 a6 and it did ok and i even got some ok scales.
using your advice i made: oracle with E4S4, castle, 2 order 2 production, 2 magic 1 heat and 1 or 2 growth i'll see how it goes (is body etheral not range 1?)

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

Search the forum for an old thread called the "communion confessional"

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

Just a question: Does anyone else use Hydras? In the latest Conceptual Rebalance they have a Fear +0(the big ones only, but that can have its own bonus with 10+ in one pack)... I've tried it (in test matches) with mixed success. Put the Tamer all the way at the back on (Hold)*5, Retreat and the Hydras all the way up front on attack archers. After Construction 4 the Tamer gets a Thunder Bow with new orders: (fire)*5, fire closest. Probably a bad idea vs the other nations (since they'll be ready with poison-resistant troops in case they see it coming) but against Heavy Cav it's amazing: the horses charge, maybe even take down the Hydras... but have to go through the cloud to do it... and when the Legion comes through a few turns later... no heavy cavalry. The trick is to not have the Hydras and the Legion in the same province. The key problem with this maneuver: By the time you can afford it, the other nations are within range and it stops being all that effective.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

They have always had this, the only thing the mod changes is their price.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

any1 every tried thrm in serpent cult with a dual lvl 9 bless? its fun but serpent cult mages rnt

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

Thats what I did not like. In an unmodded game their price was too high considering their lack of survivability, even with serpant cult and good blessing. Last I heard, they still weren't worth it (compared to other troops) even with the conceptual rebalance mod.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

try a F9 N9 bless. they get extra regen and all their attacks are flaming. i got 10 of them with no support and they slaughtered lvl 9 indies including heavy cavalry and crossbows/100 barbarians (although 1 casualty in the first case 2 in the second) once they go berserk+their regen they are hard to stop. or if you find them too vunerable go with S9/E9/high air if your afraid of crossbows ect. i find the astral works well for the luck (and the magic resistance helps) so i hope to have fun in my next multiplayer game since i am starting with sword that gives allies luck so i dont have to take serpent cult. ive never had a survivability problem with them (1 or 2 casualtys yes but still) and if anything they are good for expanding if nothing else (they slaugter anything with low health) and hoburgs are Really fun for them (5 turns of poison kills em)

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

uhhh... shovah, isnt the astral 9 bless twist fate not luck? If it is i don't really see how twist fate is going to help you, except maybe against heavy cav. (ignore the lance if you're lucky) a W9/E? blessing would help them to survive perhaps a bit better (defence from water and protection from earth) not to mention that with all pythium mages being sacred the water 9 bless is allways helpful.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

and water 9 means your hyra makes a LOT of attacks. Hoburgs vs Hydras... Intersting.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

Shovah

what pretender/scales could you use for a f9 n9 bless i always run out of points

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

go for a crone or something and just take heat 1 or 2 and maybe some misfortune. but remember they are only sacred in serpent cult which i tend to avoid so..... (try w9 and high air blessed battle vestals as good bodyguards for mages)


and water 9 raises them from low to mediocre defence... and dont forget those attacks all target 1 square. if you want to go for pure offense try water 9 fire 9 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif (loads of armour piecing attacks) and even with twist fate chances are it will let you survive an initial charge hopefully and allow you to poison/attack/rout opposition. and if combined with air it dosnt get wasted on missles

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

double post

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

I still havn't been able to play hydras so they are as cost effective as other pythium themes (or other nations). They are fun, though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

If you want to get the most out of sacred hydra's, you might want to try the 9e9n bless strategy. Each greater hydra can can clear decent armies on their own, great regen, fear, poison, berserk, good armour, and don't fatigue out.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

you get the most out of any hydras by honoring them in the breach.

personally, I'd mod them to give them a Standard...

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

berserk works better than standard for holding the line AND i found an sc to stand up to them: bane lord with accursed shield/the summit and barrier (shield makes a little more survivable but he cant kill) wraith crown/amon hotep (i suggest the crown if vrs unblessed hydras simply for etheral) monolith armour. any boots. ring of regen and pendant of luck. overall he has:42 health, 40 or so protection and around 15-17 defence, etheral, lucky, and 9 regen. this setup if almost impossible to kill without good magic beccause of the 40 protection and 9 regen per turn

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

I dunno; if you're up against C'tis, Ermor, Machaka, Vanheim, Jotunheim, Pangaea, or any nation with a single sorcery random, "good magic" means nothing more than a handful of D1 mages with decent precision. Assuming they can get within 25 range and survive for a round or two.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

lol the standard was a joke... refers to the exciting pythian troop combos... Basically, there is no way to make hydras cost effective...10 hydras to take out tough indies, that's like 3000 gp ;p

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

standards can actually work with some magical aid and in cb mod non-seprent cult hydras are only 175 gold each. and the best part is they can even stand up to alot of later game troops (and work great with tarrasques and such

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

I have experience,but only with early/small games. . . 4 communicants/2 casters is a good combo, because the casters get +2 levels and, generally, fatigue means nearly nothing to them.

Would giving the communicants e.g. Wands of Wild Fire just wipe them out?

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

that sounds like a good idea (does casting from items give low fatigue?

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

communicants die like flies, if there is ever a battle that isn't completely lopsided, and so you'ld just be setting yourself up to lose the wands.

besides which, communicants often don't seem to want to cast spells, even before they fatique to a 100

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

aww :C i liked that idea, how bout a bow of war on each?

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

When Master casts a spell that targets just him (range: Caster), it affects the communicants as well. Try Phoenix Pyre...

I haven't tried this out in a long time. It might have changed or worked differently. However, there were some crazy things one could do with Jotun Jarls carrying Slave Matrices... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Never tested that, though. Lots of work for few tricks isn't worth it IMO. Jotunheim doesn't exactly shine as a Communion nation...

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

In my very limited experience, slave matrices don't work when placed on non-mages. Plus, you're going to have morale issues with a commander-heavy setup like that.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

both those points are correct. It is certainly possible to use the "slave buff" effect to create mini-SCs, but it is usually a lot of work, and often a fragile setup.

communicants w/ a few buffs and phoenix pyre is a good plan though - still a lot of work to get going - and don't forget that your own mages have to run away...

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

really weird i was just thinking of that phoenix pyre a while ago (today) one MAJOR advantage (if it would work) would be if the master got picked out by duel or such he could spread the fatigue of revival among his comunicants (but im not 100% sure)

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

Yeah, but the advantages are tremendous: you can have multiple masters cast all their buffs within 1-2 rounds, you can safely distribute the fatigue, you can put together combos which would be impossible for any individual unit save a rainbow Pretender(and would be impossible to script for any one mage, anyway), and, best of all, you can have a handful of astral-1 mages cast Astral Shield, Resist Magic, Personal Luck and Astral Weapon without making any of your SCs susceptible to Magic Duel. And since access to matrices means access to hammers, the setup is usually strikingly cost-effective, even if you lose the occasional matrix, slave, or master.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

and dont forget the fact that the grand thaumaturgs random can buff aswell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif and as for your comment about that rainbow why not use him as one of the main buffers? astral shield+fire shield+body etheral+twist fate+mist form+air shield http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif survivable anyone?

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

I always meant to test that out. I'd concluded that the only simultaneously efficient and "safe" use for the Forbidden Light was to stick it in that archdemon with the astral/fire combo, give him a bunch of reinvigoration and defense items, attach a retinue of blind communicants and bodyguards to him, and send him off to mind duel, blind, and incinerate to his heart's content. I still don't know whether or not this would actually work. And I imagine the communicants would drop off like flies, if one Phoenix Pyre 'splosion were to start off a chain reaction.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

spread em out (phoenix power brings u back to life neway)

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

Because he's too valuable for field work, and fragile enough to be taken out by a handful of Bone Grindings or flying troops. Still, if he does survive, that's one hell of a combo. Though Body Ethereal is area 1, and doesn't transfer to communicants. Also, you forgot Invulnerability, Resist Magic, Personal Luck, Personal Regeneration, Summon Earthpower, Strength of Gaia and so very much more. You can fit more buffs into a single matrix misc slot than you can into an entire equipment loadout, so long as you keep the communion masters alive for a round or two.

Then again, I favor this tactic precisely because you don't have to keep them alive to be cost-effective. You're very likely to lose a communion master or two, but they're usually perfectly expendable, and more than worth the sacrifice if they get their spells off for just a few battles.
Not that expendability is the only way to go: if you've managed to get a Tartarian factory going by the lategame, you'll find few better uses for it than this. Two or three Tartarian masters could endow as many tartarian slaves as they like with pretty much every self-buff in the game, and still survive a pitched battle.

Yeah, but after the first death or two, random teleportation just might result in a chain reaction. Does Soul Vortex restore exactly as much fatigue as it drains? If so, it might be a semi-workable solution, when combined with Personal Regeneration.

Edit: Right, just in case I haven't properly overstressed this point: Astral Goddamn Weapon. Perhaps the best SC-killer buff in the game, and a pretty decent everything-else-killer buff, to boot. With no risk at all, save to the astral-1 mage that casts the buff. And you don't even have to get said mage his own matrix.
Ever seen what an armor-negating Herald Lance can do to a demon or Tartarian? It ain't pretty.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

yea i love astral weapon aswell but then again i love all armour negating damage and as for the body etheral would it not effect communicants even if it affected the master?

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

it does.

man an army of communicants with pheonix pyre could be qute devistating

everytime they die, they blow up... then pop back up

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

that is, if you can keep them from running away

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

just add inanother few non-master mages to use priestly morale restores (or give some standards to communicants) and an easy way ive found to stop all commander-armies from routing is to add a few slow/immobile troops to the rear of the battlefield (so 1 death dosnt cause a complete rout). something else im interested in is would inner sun+phoenix pyre be good on a single reasonably equiped commander? i know it would work on the communicants as its a ritual but i was thinking of making use of it with my marignon witch hunter general

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

Even with Elemental Fortitude, a single casting of Wrathful Skies, Firestorm or whatever would fatigue them all to death within a few rounds. Then again, its not that hard to give a communion full-spectrum elemental resistance, meaning the only battlefield-area direct-damage spells they'd have to worry about would be Bone Grinding, Astral Tempest, Soul Drain and... is Earthquake armor-negating? I know Rain of Stones isn't, so that's not a threat. Neither are arrows, what with Air Shield.

Hmm. This is actually beginning to look like a semi-decent higher-end Pythium strategy, so long as you've got support from Relief casters, plus either a morale boost or a berserk communion. Still, I doubt it'd be very cost-effective. Not like SC and mini-SC communion slaves, at any rate.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

Needs a lot of reinvigoration, and he will either be lost or be utterly crippled by afflictions within your first battle, but it's not that bad a way of dealing with large hordes of low- and mid-level undead.

Re: Pythium Strategies
 

its the game im just using to test fun things vrs ermor (like my e9 n9 blessed paladins) i was thinking that with support from paladins (with fire resistance items) he could charge in, die and then be brought back by the pyre and hopefully join in finishing the enemy