New OOB for Finland... (OBSOLETE THREAD)
 

I deleted all the old and obsolete versions... Latest version (final for SPMBT ver 3.5) will be uploaded shortly with all the LBMs and TXT files included.

Zip

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

Most of the finnish armored vehicles have wrong camouflage. What I did with my finnish OOB is I changed all brown vehicles to green and if possible, green+dark grey. I also assigned winter camouflage to most units.

What bothers me most now are the AMOS vehicles' turrets. Why couldn't they just use the swedish AMOS turret with the Pasis and AMVs isntead of the CV90 ones?

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

Becasuse that's the Icon whoever entered that unit used and nobody until today complained about it before. OK ? I'll note it down to be fixed for V3.

Don

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

Might also want to fix these for your Fin oob:

Unit 106 and 107 (LMG Sections) have their main weapons mixed. 106 should have the DPM LMG and unit 107 the LMG 27.

Unit 316 Landsverk Anti has same graphics as the M36 Jackson, although it is a totaly different vehicle.

Re: New OOB for Finland... *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Zipuli

Re: New OOB for Finland... *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Zipuli

Re: New OOB for Finland... *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Zipuli

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

Colour LBM are not an option for encyclpaedia entries. The palette is wrong, and so you will get "swimming" effects if any of the pallete entries use the same entries as the game uses for its smoke etc. colour cycling, if brought up during a game screen.

Any LBM to be used for the game therefore must use the correct B&W palette.

Colour LBM are only used for the intro screens etc outside the game map screens itself, i.e where the palette is not in the process of being cycled for smoke, water etc effects. Those LBM are a fixed set (hint - the ones in there that are already in colour http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.


Cheers
Andy

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

Yepp, I've noticed. When the job is done it will have B&W pictures... And hopefully a bit better ones too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Zip

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

Nice Pics! You have the correct picture for the Finnish AMOS there too and many others, Good work.

While studying the OOB I noticed that the SA-3 SAM appears to use a T-55 hull whit a SA-3 turret, however the unit is classed as Areal SAM and not SP SAM so it just shows the T-55 hull whit crew around it ingame (looks weird). Anyway this SAM is not an SP version so it should just have the regular icon. This is something that is in the official OOB too.

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

Hey Zipuli! I haven´t downloaded your oob yet and haven´t seen anything on it. If you haven´t done it yet, correct the finnish Leo 2A4 armor ratings to the WG oob armors. Last time I checked they were different.

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

I just changed the icon to #2900

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

~95% done... I've had good feedback from testers. I will still add some text files to explain the formations a bit and also some for the units... pics and the OOB itself are done. I think it will take a week before I can post it here! I can see both of you Finland lovers shaking eagerly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif!
After the release I'll shortly upload some scenarios based on the OOB.

Only problem is that I have no idea how to do a picklist or time to teach myself to do it, so when used against AI it may buy some weird stuff. In test games I've run the AI forces have been OK, but propably it's just luck.

Maybe someone can do that later???

Zip

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

I have used colour .lbms for some OOB mods and have not had this problem.

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

--

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

--- moved to 1st post ---

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

Hi Zipuli, I checked your OOB and noticed that where are F-18 Hornets disappeared (at least 2006)? I found them from Encyclopedia but not in OOB itself... Only Hawk was there in Strike Element. Could you fix it?

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

Nothing is broken... First AG weapons are to be bought for Hornets in around 2010. Now the Hornets perform only anti-fighter-duties. There are plans to buy glide-bombs for the Hornets, and JDAM is propably one of the options.

Zip

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

--

Thank you:)
 

Thank you Zipuli for all your hard work!

This OOB is like a dream come true for a player that likes to operate with the Finns! A real cultural landmark!

I'm not that big of an expert in Finnish army, but everything looks to be correct in this OOB, at least in modern times. There's many juicy things added like motorcycle scouts and new AGL's with AP-ammunition. Also all kinds of spec ops troops are included now. They're interesting, but don't have that much use in the game IMO. Still a good addition especially fro those who build scenarios. Also the new formations like Jaeger Brigade 05 and Urban Jaegers are very cool and I can't wait to play with them. The hvy snipers and new PzJaeger formations are also worth mentioning.

While I don't have any big complaints, I find the number of FO teams a bit problematic. Especially with Marine Jaegers there's too many FO teams included which makes the formation too expensive to use. This might be realistic in real life but backfires in the game. I suggest that you'd do another formation of Marine Jaeger Co with less FO teams or with and FO platoon that could be deleted from the formation after buying it.

But this is a very minor fault that doesn't ruin this great OOB in any way.

Thank you again and keep up the good work,
Cheers,
Jukka

Re: Thank you:)
 

Finally I got the opportunity to check your oob. It is good.:)

However I found some interesting figures.

Leo 2A4 frontal armor is corrected. However the side armors seem still old.

FIN hull side steel 9 HEAT 37
GER(91-96) steel 13 HEAT 33

I assume that finns have bought the upgraded "schurzen" Leo2A4s, as fielded by the bundeswehr.

Leo 2A4M concept seems to have only the turret uparmoring package. However this still differs from 2A5 turret scheme.

FIN turret side steel 20 HEAT 50, turret rear 10 and 25
GER turret side steel 30 HEAT 50, turret rear 15 and 30

Probably the finns will eventually upgrade to Leo 2A5 standard, so the concept tank is very good to include.

120mm L44 WG87 and 120mm L44 Fi07 accuracies are still 11, that should be corrected to the new standard of 14. (See main gun acc. thread and ver2.51 US oob)

Another issue (been here before) generic Sniper rifle accuracy is 30. This means that a basic to hit is 50% at 1500meters. Maybe acc should be 15, so base 50% is achieved at 750meters, as some oobs suggest. Heavy Snipers could have the acc. 30.

And I personally have general suspicions about BM II Autocannons capability to penetrate 16cm of rolled homogenous armor. As much as a WW2 17pdr would. Seems unbelievable for a 30mm weapon, whatever magic bullets one could use.

Re: Thank you:)
 

@pdoktar

I'm not quite sure about what skirts the German OOB has, because there are 2 different kinds used. But anyway, it seems a little weak! Maybe I look into this later when I have time! At Leo 2A4M, I think upgrade is possible if money is given (which I highly doubt!) and my intention was to give it the front&side turret wedged armour upgrade seen on 2A5, so maybe I made a little mistake with the armour ratings... I'll see to it later!

The accuracies 11 thing is new to me, let's see if it is fixed in 3.0, because many OOBs seem to have acc 11, not 14?!? Same with sniper accuracy, let's see what happens in 3.0...

BM2 with sabot ammo is a real killer (the MP ammo is bad), but as I compared it with the Swedish 40mm I think both are a bit overpowered! Their penetration should be quite close - this is why Finland bought the 30mm, not the 40mm. But anyway, even the practice ammunition (sabot) for the 30mm cannon WILL penetrate BMP-2s front armour easily http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

@thexder

Yes the spec ops are there only to exist... maybe in some scenarios, who knows! I don't use them either http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The FO thing is a bit problematic, because FOs are usually integrated in the platoon level, which means that it's normal to have FO sec in a platoon (of any kind). I gave the 05 units an FO platoon if someone likes to delete it in the buy list, but didn't do it for the naval units... Let's see later, if I change this. Anyway, the FOs are there because they really are there! Actually this OOB has quite a small amount of FO teams in formations, as most platoon size "special" (ATGM, Recce etc.) formations have FOs too. I left them out, but the player can buy them individually!

Zip

Re: Thank you:)
 

Zipuli, why you didn't added Hornets into this year (2006) too? Am I understood something wrong? I mean that if I want to use aircraft, I must choose only Hawk fighters? You say "Now the Hornets perform only anti-fighter-duties". Ok, I understand it but why they are still not available in your OOB at this moment too (I just checked this)... Is it really so that Finnish airforce's main fighter is still Hawk, not Hornet???

Anyway, your OOB is otherwise very good done!

Warhero

Hornets
 

If I've understood correctly, the Hornets don't have any weapons with which to shoot the ground targets. Like Zipuli said, they are only used to fight the enemy air forces, not ground objectives. And the game, of course, doesn't simulate the dog fights high above the infantry. If I remember correctly, there has been some talk of purchasing air-to-ground weapons to the Hornets as well. But it hasn't got approval yet (I'm not sure whether this is because political or fiscal reasons - or both).

Cheers,
Jukka

Re: Hornets
 

Yes, as Thexder says Finland has no A-G weapons for Hornets, nor A-G training for Hornet pilots... Only a few Hawks are used for war-time dutied anymore, and I am quite confident that they wouldn't attack ground targets either, but I gave them rockets for I've seen some photos of Finn Hawks with rocket pods under wings... Not sure if they were only for tests or..???

The reason Finnish Hornets are called F-18, not F/A-18 is that they were bought only for air-supremacy (sort of http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif) duties and all air-to-ground stuff was left out. BUT now that the politicians decided to remove AP (anti-personel) land mines from use before 2016 something was needed to replace them. How would you replace AP land mines? Finland's decision was to buy MLRS rocket launchers and later to arm some of the Hornets with "glide-bombs" (sort of "smart" cruise-missile-meets-iron-bomb-thing).

I'm not into politics, but it does sound a bit weird, doesn't it?

Zip

Re: Hornets
 

Politicians decide, everybody else whines.. Knowing that the Hornet deal became quite expensive it can be said that Buying the whole package at the first time might´ve been somewhat cost-efficient.

Interesting enough, finns decided against SP-artillery, but are now buying MLRS, knowing the quality of Tampella and Vammas´ guns, it is unbelivable that their products couldn´t be integrated to, say, AS90.

And now they´re buying MLR$...

Re: Hornets
 

30x173 Mk268 APFSDS ~64mm at 1000meters
30x173 Oerlikon FAPDS ~38mm at 1000meters
30x173 PGU-14 ~80mm at 1000meters

Check out tanknet armor scientific forum, topic some autocannon penetration numbers. There´s a lot of other stuff too for the interested one in various topics.

Re: Hornets
 

Thanks about make it clear Zipuli;). It's bit weird that Finland still have not "proper" air support for ground forces... Maybe after joining NATO in future;)?

Hornets, Finland and NATO
 

I can't brag about knowing that much about Finnish army (served 4½ out of 6 months in MP company and hvy mortar company before changing to civil service) but I think it's logical in some way. One has to bear in mind that Finland only about 60 (Zipuli might know the exact number) Hornets againts hundrets of fighters our "most probable" enemy has. So in many ways it would be counterproductive to use this valuable asset for ground targets as Finland has - proportionally - stronger ground forces than air forces.

This is also linked to the failed attempt from military to acquire gunships. Maybe they thought that they would first take care of the air defense and then buy gunships to strenghten the defense against ground targets (ah, it would've been neat to use Apache's while playing with Finland). But all this is just my own speculation. I know there's many Finns in this forum that knows better.

As for NATO, I don't see Finland joining any time soon, at least not before 2010. But the truth is that the Finnish army is already compatible with NATO-standarts and when I was there many officers were certain that Finland would join. Well, that was four years ago and now we re-elected a president who is very much against NATO and the public is against joining with about 60% opposing and 25% for it.

Cheers,
Jukka

Re: Hornets, Finland and NATO
 

I've made some small changes to the OOB and will post it here next weekend. Changes are:

-Leo 2A4 hull armour values same as WG Leo2 and turret front received extra points against HEAT (only a few) due to the boxes Finns use in the front turret (Germans don't use)
-Leo 2A4M armour values changed to Leo 2A5 standards
-The 120 L44 Fi07 gun changed to WG96, as the Fi gun had sabot pen of 87, which is supposed to present DM53, but the ammo Finns buy (2007) is the DM33A2 (and maybe DM43). They have penetration of 68 in the game

Finns will propably not buy the DM53 round at all, because of the expences (parts in the gun need to be upgraded and the shot wears down the gun very fast compared to DM33 and 43).

Finnish air forces are only for fighting air threats (at the moment) and it has been that way after WW2.. With 64 hornets it's most likely that during chrisis they have other stuff to do than fly low to the enemy AA to fire off few rockets and drop some bombs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

MLRS was quite cheap to Finns as the system was bought used from Holland (22 launcher vehicles ~40 million euros).

When testing the SPA the army of course wanted to buy them, but no money-no funny. The system (if bought new as the plan was) would have been really heavy moneywise, so the 155mm K98 was bought instead. Of course Finns still have a number of 2S1s and 2S5s, but the new SPA was to be used with the Brig 05s, the old russian ones are used with the armoured brigs and the new mech battlegroups(?). At least the AMOS could be bought!

Someone may think after reading these posts that FDF has always moneyproblems... well, it is that way! Compromises must be made.

But anyway, till next weekend!

Zip

Re: Hornets, Finland and NATO
 

Sorry I am unable to upload the file now... I'll get to it ASAP!

Zip

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

I am currently working on a new version of the OOB, and hopefully I get something released this december. If you have some major bugs found etc. please point them out and that helps me check if I have missed something. Also if some of you would like to test it out before I upload it here, contact me... Things I am doing:

-editing some organizations, adding some, overall making the troop purchase screens a bit better organized
-removing some equipment that will never be bought (such as the Spartan that lost to CASA)
-adding some equipment
-point of main effort being in armoured forces 1945-1980, readines brigades/mech BG (modern 2008->) and all the "special" units like Kaupunkijääkäri (urban jäger), rannikkojääkäri (coastal jäger) etc.

Thanks!

Zip

Re: New OOB for Finland...
 

Ok, it will take much longer now that we have the new SPMBT version and all. But still working on it. The latest version should work just fine with the latest SPMBT version!

Zip

Leopards, Finland and politics
 

> Finns will propably not buy the DM53 round at all, because of the expences

So we were too cheap to buy proper ammo for the big cats? Not much of a surprise there really.

The finnish arms deals tend to repeat the same pattern. Generals ask for some big guns. Politicins buy a toned down version. Maybe 20% of the money is saved but some 80% of the punch is lost...

Anyhow that pretty much explains why I lost four Finnish Leo2A4's to a single T-80UM just yesterday. Propably some really bad luck and certaily lots of arrogance on my side involved, but inferior ammo explains a lot too:

I had a platoon of Leopards advancing in column when suddenly a lone Russian T-80 drove out of forest accross a large clearing. Russian tanks do not usually travel alone so I immediately ordered a FASCAM bombardment near there just in case there is more of those coming. Then a shooting gallery like 4-on-1 strugle between the tanks begun. Even after half a dozen non penetrating hits I was feeling victorious - thinking that the Russian tank crew must be spoiling their pants receiving hits from four MBTs just 800-1000m away. Instead they blew up 2 of my tanks when they got to shoot back! Was not feeling invincible anymore but wondering how many ERA blocks that tank could possible have remaining after all the pounding I was giving to it. Well eventually I got the T-80 destroyed by retargetting the FASCAM barrage over there - but only after I had lost all my tanks...

Maybe we should grant the uranium mining license to Areva after all but only if they promise to sell the depleted uranium to Patria... They propably have the know how to produce competent penetrators already if the raw material and political will was there ;-)

ps. this happened in winSPMBT 3.0 standard OOB - playing around with that one a bit before reinstalling the excellent MOD OOB

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

Well I think that DU rounds will not ever be made or used by finnish forces. However Patria or vammas or whoever should have significant ballistic knowhow to manufacture a homemade sabot for the rheinmetall gun. Then again, the army still needs the money to buy such things..

Today it was said that by 2008 we have 22 working MLRS systems, so maybe they got it right this time? They were quite cheap, some 50 million euros for all of them.

And watch out for those T80UMs, theyre not plastic toys with K-5.

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

"So we were too cheap to buy proper ammo for the big cats? Not much of a surprise there really."

Well, it's not just the round that costs, but with DM53 you need to change few parts in the gun shock mechanism to avoid breaking up the whole thing when firing (€€). Also with DM33 the gun (barrel) itself can fire (if I remember correctly) some 1500 rounds and with DM53 it was just some 100 before you need to change a new barrel. Guess how many spare barrels we have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

pdoktar,

About the MLRS I wouldn't say they got it right. They only have AT-2 ammunition (scatterable antitank mines) and practice rounds. We didn't buy ICM ammo (well we did but they were converted into practice ammo if I remember correctly) to them because some of the grenades will be left duds, and that naturally is humanitarian risk. So now we have a really good MLRS system, but no real ammo for them. Remember how MLRS along with Hornet's AG weapons was supposed to replace AP landmines (iskukykytutkimus)? So now we have system that fires scatterable mines, we don't have the bad bad ICM ammo, nor do we have Hornet AG weapons because USA wouldn't sell us (yet). The funny thing is that all our landmines are safe in stores and when used they are marked really accurately on... miinoiteseloste (few meters accuracy at least). But with AT-2 you really can't say where the mines went. And guess how much damage you will do with full salvo of AT-2 mines to say against SP Howitzer Battalion?

Well, around 2015 there are plans to buy artillery missiles (ATACMS) for MLRS, so that boosts the range, but the damage done is still nothing like the ICM ammo. And few days ago it was said (by few top politicians) that the ICM ammo is important part of the MLRS system. We will get one when they can confirm 0% duds when fired. Guess when that'll be? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Zip

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

But just now they´re talking about buying ICM to MLRS, and those would be brought from the netherlands, where they bought the system itself. These ICM munitions should be second-generation, self-destroying thingies. They have the launchers, but those rockets are due to arrive in 2008 (are those then the ICM rockets, I don´t know).

Down with cluster munitions, let there be peace.

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

This from www.mil.fi:

"Puolustusvoimat vakuuttaa ettei Suomeen hankita kyseisiä ammuksia. Selvityksen alla ovat uudentyyppiset rypälepommit, jotka ovat aiempaa vaarattomampia räjähtämättöminä."

The new kind of ICM they're talking about doesn't exist yet.

More:

"M270-heitin ampuu MLRS-ampumatarvikeperheen (MFOM, MLRS Family Of Munition) raketteja ja tykistöohjuksia, joita ovat mm.
- M26 kuormaraketti, 32 km, 644 tytärammusta
- M26A1/A2 (ERR) pitkän kantaman kuormaraketti, 45 km

-> these two are the basic ammo used by most users... the bad bad ICM http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

- M28 harjoitusraketti, perustuu M26-rakenteeseen (hankitaan Suomelle)

-> THE ONE I WAS TALKING ABOUT

- M28A1 RRPR lyhyen kantaman harjoitusraketti
- AT2 miinaraketti, 38 km, 28 miinaa/raketti (hankitaan Suomelle)

-> this is the one you mentioned to be fielded 2008!!!!

- M30 GMLRS ohjautuva raketti, 60—100 km, esisarjatuotannossa (!!), useita hyötykuormavaihtoehtoja (hankintaa Suomelle tutkitaan)
- ATACMS ohjus, 165—330 km, tytärammuksia tai muita hyötykuormia hyötykuormavaihtoehtoja (hankintaa Suomelle tutkitaan)"

-> With the last 2 there's no such thing as "second-generation, self-destroying thingies" yet, but I guess pressure on making them possible is quite high. And so would be the cost to buy them! Guess when we have the money for those? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Hoping the best, fearing the worst...

Zip

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

Well, now we have fielded the first humane weapon system ever, the MLRS without rockets. And North Korea is still accusing us of human rights violations.

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

Heh good point Pdoktar;)! I saw that "violation" thing in local newspaper and got a good laugh:)...

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Zipuli

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

Hmm very good job overall but why F-18 Hornets are not available 2008??? Just Hawk:)... I just checked encyclopedia and there is available until 2020. Weird, isn't it?

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Zipuli

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

Ok, maybe they have not AG weapons but do they have any (turret?) cannon, just bombs/missiles? Or do I remember wrong...

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

20mm Vulcan and Sidewinders/AMRAAMs... No bombs/rockets etc. And yes, you COULD strafe with that 20mm Vulcan, but I didn't include it in because it's just something they don't do. (So no strike element with Hornets with only cannon from 1990's onwards)

And the Hornet that is included now has no Vulcan because if it had, it would enter the map and get shot by all that AAA/SAM -fire after engaging with the bombs. The idea of the "glide bombs" (the weapon system to be bought is not yet revealed or is not yet chosen) is to fire the weapon from afar (up to hundreds of kilometers) and avoid being targeted by AAA/SAMs, not to get in close enough to strafe. It's more tactical than technical issue, that's why I made the decisions regarding HN. Even now I think the HN with AG weapons is out of place in SPMBT, as it clearly is not a tactical asset... (you as a battalion commander will NOT get a call from FAF about you getting 20 HN strike missions for your next counter-attack http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif)

You can always add the Vulcan yourself, but do remember that even if YOU can disable that Vulcan thus making the plane NOT to enter the battlefield, the AI cannot...

Zip

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Zipuli

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Zipuli

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

I like your OOB alot! Keep up the good work!

Kiitos

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

Zipuli why did you delete all the info on the thread? I have use to OOB and it is good...

Re: Leopards, Finland and politics
 

Read his edit to the first post on this thread

Don