SEIV via Steam
 

Hey there, scanned the forum but didn't see this get mentioned, so maybe I'm first, but it looks like SEIV is getting distribution via Valve's Steam now. I guess you guys might want to look for a fresh stream of new arrivals. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Steam News

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

There was a lot of discussion about Steam here.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

like holy fsck. seriously.

I guess that kind of makes it rather certain SEV will be on steam too.

valve is like becoming a new haven for indie games it seems. (just look at what else they got to offer, that kungfu game, darwinia, etc)

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

We'll really just have to wait and see how SE5 will be implemented. If it uses STEAM at the outset, it might, after a couple of years, see the release of a STEAM-free version.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

From a few posts down in the thread Fyron linked to:

Malfador said:
Thanks for the lengthy/thorough post. Not to worry, the CD version of the game does not require Steam to play. We’re only using it as a distribution channel at this point.

I would not expect this to change for SEV, and I would expect it to be only one of several distribution channels.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Can someone confirm whether steam is necessary for a single player game.

I travel a lot for business and play SEIV non stop while in the air, without an internet connection.

If this won't work I will not buy the game which would suck. I am hoping the STEAM stuff works itself out.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

The quote from Malfador in the post just before yours confirmed it is not.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

geoschmo said:
The quote from Malfador in the post just before yours confirmed it is not.

I suppose the question, for me and maybe some other people, is if Malfador's contract with Strategy First, or Valve would ever force Malfador to require STEAM for the game to function, maybe even going as fas as to shutdown the PBW site, or even remove play-by-email from the game code.

I don't remember the exact name, but some people made some sort of Linux port of Warcraft, that used some sort of alternate network, distinct from Battlenet, for multiplayer gaming. It required a functioning Windows copy of Warcraft to run, and since Battlenet has no charge they were kinda claiming that it wasn't infriging on Blizzard's rights -- they were just createing a separate network to save bandwidth and allow Linux users to play their favorite DOS game.

Blizzard, understandably, were not pleased at the loss of control, if not income, and came down hard on these hippie, commie, open-source, wacko, liberal nerds.:)

People have strong feelings about issues like this. And sometimes even a straight answer isn't enough to ally suspicions. I like to maintain a calm "wait'n see" attitude to the issue.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

I cannot even imagine a set of circumstances that would have that as the end result. But I suppose if it were to happen we could just roll the PBW server back to only supporting version 1.91 and before. Since that was published by Shrapnel I can't see that SF or Valve would have any say in whether people could use PBW for that.

I'm not even sure Malfador or Shrapnel could legally force PBW to stop allowing players to play even if they were taken over by evil mind-controlling aliens who had it in for us. I'm pretty sure we are well within the boundaries of "fair-use". Of course if a publisher were to take a little fan-run site like PBW to court the side with the money would probably win, regardless of what was actually legally correct. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Aaron has specifically said that SE5 will not require Steam to play...

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Is it just me, or is almost everyone here really paranoid about steam!

ahhh, im not going to get involved in this!

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

I have to admit im pretty dissapointed. Even only considering to combine SEV with steam (not important for what, but even the simple thought) feels like Aaron has lost his mind and is looking to make as many $$$ as possible. I was always happy with SEIV being a niche product, but if a game gets in contact with steam, i will most probably not even consider buying it. Im really very dissapointed, on a moralic level.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

It's pretty much just you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Ragnarok-X, the publicaly stated goal was always to get SE5 in the mass retail market... Steam is just another distribution channel.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Don't be silly. The man needs to eat, and it's no skin off your back or anyone elses, so where's the problem?

Digital delivery is FTW as far as independent games are concerned.

Some people may know that Darwinia was released via Steam recently. This was an excellent idea. It made purchasing and acquiring the game very easy. Frankly, I'm mildly irritated with having to mail order everything, and I've got so many CDs already that I've already exceeded my ability to organize them.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Its not like Aaron is sitting in a cozy office at the top of his skyscraper counting his money lol. He is probaly slaving over a hot computer right now making SEV as good as he can.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Digital delivery is good, Steam isn't. I'll put up with it for multiplayer only games like Red Orchestra, but for SEV? CD, please.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

ahh, I will say it anyway...

this is prety much what I said in the other topic.

Steam is good IF you have a fast internet connection and fast computer only so you only see the benefits.

As I did before when people were complaining, watch my video at http://media.putfile.com/steam77 max it to full screen, I have a high res, if you dont, it may come up weird, when HL is open in the top left corner, I was seeing that full screen.

Steam is brilliant for digital distribution, and for DRM, it is not that bad.

I will never buy a digital only product unless it is MUCH cheaper, I like to have something to show if I spend money, I on the other hand bought one digital program when they offered a upgrade for half the price, and I could download a iso to burn, I saw no reason not to.

I am against DRM when it affects the end user, I have so many old games (+5 years) that are no longer working due to broken drm software, (I know this as when I used a nocd, it got my game working), DRM seems to only affect legitament users, My post - http://www.gamedev.net/community/for...opic_id=353819

If they manage to get a drm that only affects pirates, I would be fine with it, but at the moment it only really seem to affect the propour owner, With steam, I had a hell of a time joining HL2 with steam, but once I did, it is much better, (e.g. look at the vid, you will see the benefits!)

As I said, Steam slows down a game loading SLIGHTLY, and I hate the fact that joining a game is hell, but once you have it is bliss!

I will not get SEV if it is steam only, but it is not, so I am ok, however it is as it says, and cd as well, that is perfect, I hope it is like halflife generations, I have that on cd, I can install it from cd, or like in the video, I can go to a new pc, install steam and play straight away without any hasstle.

people worrying about steam is being paranoid, in 5 years, I predict that if not steam, there will be one digital distribution system that will be big, it is the future. more and more houses get broadband each day, I am in the UK, they have just rolled out 24Mb/s ADSL2+, I like the fact I can load steam on my pc, click on a game, and just load it quickly, I have a fast pc, I do not even see the overhead of loading it.

I have repeated points over and over again here, hopefully it will stick and you will understand!To sum it up : I personally do not mind drm in steam, because as I said, it is invisible to the end user, and the game runs fast, and efficent. I will never buy a steam only game, (unless it is much cheaper, and only available this way), when I can have a physical copy, but I like having a physical copy and at the same time being able to do one click and install games from any pc without touching a cd.

Thanks

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

The best part is that it goes both ways, wilhil.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

I am just trying to be honest here and not take a one sided look at steam,

I know that if you live in a area where there is no broadband or fast internet then you will not benefit, and should be able to get a cd, or just so you can play solo.

That being said, I think steam will be the holy grail for indies, It allows publishing at a much better rate, and the developer has a lot more control, hence valve distributing games themselves now.

I just hope as I said, it will not be the only choice, As I said, I would personally like to have the option to use steam as a distribution platform, and only that. I own a cd, I can then choose to activate a product on steam, then I can install either by cd, or steam... I am sorry if it is annoying to keep refearing it, but that vid of me showing loading HL on a new machine really does show how good it is.

Frankly, with the DRM overheads, that is not to much of a problem, as much as I am not a big fan, it is much better than any other soloution on the market, I know it will be supported for years to come, and frankly the sort of games being released like SEV, HL2 and more require a beefy pc to run good, so if you have the hardware needed, you will not see the overheads.


I have got here a game called incoming, I installed it, I got a CTD error during loading, as a programmer I instantly recognised the error being a unsupported call that had been taken out the xp kernel to do with the cd drive, I downloaded a no-cd program, and the game worked fine.

I wish I lived in a world where developers did not need to use such methods, but they do, and steam is good as drm because it will always be updated, and game son it, I will be sure can work with my pc in 5-10 years from now. Yes it is a chance valve could go out of business, but that is really not likly.



but on a sad note, I think that pc gaming will become less popular ovre the next 5 years due to copy protection, and things like steam will accelerate it. I remember now about 3-5 years ago, I have always had more than one pc here, I could have a few friends around and install HL, or C and C, or any other game to multiple machines (c and c allowed this with multi playable disks), and have a damn good time together playing games, now places do not allow the same serial key to be used across a lan. I can buy halo and play 4 people on the same console, but I have to buy 4 copys of halo PC edition to do the same thing on the computer... It is not fair! as DRM comes better, I think that pc gaming will die out... well at least for RTS, FPS games. Games like SE will be safe as long as they listen to the fans. I will be happy to play for years to come as long as I am allowed to have a copy on my pc and laptop, and can transfer saves easily! I know SEV may have better protection, from seeing the info that beta testers had to give, but I just hope that I will be easily able to copy folders and the game just works without doing anything. I like copying the folder to a new pc and it just works!

anyway, ending rant, I could go on forever!

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

I don't have a problem with digital distribution. My problem is with authentication. The fact of the matter is that if a game requires authentication over the internet, through a company to work IN ANY WAY then I don't want it. Or at least I don't want to pay for it. The problem arises from the fact that I have no certainty that the game will continue to work as long as I own it (which will be the rest of my life.)

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

I'm pretty sure Aaron stated when Fyron asked him about it that, as far as SEIV and SEV are concerned, Steam is a distribution channel and only a distribution channel. It will also be merely one of several distribution channels.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Interesting Tom's Hardware editorial on Steam: article

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Well I just bought ragdoll kungfu from steam (looked kinda neat and $15 is peanuts) and i'm quite happy with the shopping experience. so i'll prolly get SEV thru steam.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

There you go. Im not only against Steam on a moralic level, but im also waiting for DSL since February 2000. Up to now, im still using dial-up. I could potentially get ISDN, but still, downloading 1000 MB with 56k or 64k wont matter at all, considering it will still take douzens of hours. So there is yet another drawback, another reason for me to vote against Steam.
On a second note, i cant literally state how many times i have heard and read complains about steam. Connection-problems, authentification-problems, even bill-problems. I can say i will try to avoid steam, or any other online-distribution-platform as long as possible, until im basicly forced to use them.

If i think about it, its actually funny. I dont think half-life 2 was cheaper when downloading it, compared to buying it from steam. So to sum that up, its another way for companies to make money. They actually save costs for the medium and packaging (compared to the cost for the platform and traffic), but they dont give their advantage to the customers, interesting, isnt it ?
ADDTIONALLY, they can basicly save those millions of $$$ for copy-protection, which should have impact on the price as well.

In a direct choice, i dont understand why anyone would prefer virtually downloading something to physically buying it. There is just no advantage, no cover, no extras, no $$$ saved, it will probably even take a lot more time.
And i dont see someone stating "I dont have enough place for that tiny box", because that cant be an argument, can it ?

Actually, what exactly is the reason you are downloading something ? I dont see a single advantage, really..


edit: grammar

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

How about "I WANT'T IT NOW!!!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif That's the major advantage to the consumer I see for downloadable games.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

You also don't need a CD in the drive to play a downloaded game.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

True, but it's kinda sad if a person can't wait for a few days until the game can be shipped or until they can make it to the closest retailer.
I don't need a CD in the drive to play SEIV either. Granted, many games you do, but why is this a big deal? Sure it's a bit of a pain switching CD's/DVD's out and in all the time, but enough to make someone willing to go with a method that leaves you with no physical backup or protection for the day the game is no longer supported?

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

You'd think it would be. But you were asking what's the advantage to the consumer. Now you are telling the consumer what to think. That's a whole nuther argument. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

What if the store is out? Or what if you live somewhere that doesn't have a lot of stores? What if you just hate leaving the house?

Nobody ever got rich telling the customer to wait.

Most games don't have the long term replay value where this is even a concern. If you aren't going to want to play the game in six months, why do you care if the online support will quit working in twelve? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Yeah, its fine for flash in the pan games... but those games are so overpriced compared to something like SE4.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Not "online support", though, Geo. If Steam goes down or stops supporting a game you can't even install it.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Actually, that was Ragnarok-X who asked what the advantage was to the consumer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I live in a place where he nearest store is an hour and a half away http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif I can wait. I guess I just figured other people would as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

But I do see what you're saying. It's simply good economics to have a variety of options, for those who don't want to wait and are willing to go the downloadable route and for those who want the CD/DVD, something physical.

Most games don't have the long term replay value where this is even a concern. If you aren't going to want to play the game in six months, why do you care if the online support will quit working in twelve? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[/quote]

Good point. But I still think the option should be there, just in case you DO want to play it again in a couple years http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

I think that valve wont be going broke anytime soon. and that if they ever go bankrupt they will release a steam-release patch or somesuch. and if valve doesnt do it it'll get done anyways. steam is being bypassed already today by many illegal copies of HL2 so I dont think it'll be impossible for other games. and yes the legalities might matter. but when valve is bankrupt it's equal to abandonware imho. (which is technically illegal but imho morally legal)

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Its quite funny. The only reason people can tell is "i want it now" and "i save space". Imho, those are merely excuses, or non-existing arguments. I someone would say that to me in reallife, i would begin to laugh, basicly because its stupid.


I tell you what, the true reason imho is that ppl are getting fking lazy, on a large scale. They just want to sit on their chair, click, download stuff and enjoy it, without thinking about what they actually did and how stupid it actually is, compared to doing it the "old way".

I have to admit though, this is not only the case with downloading/buying, i can basicly convert my example to literally every part of todays life.

Ok, i see this is a rather extreme statement, but im rather sure this is about 100% right. Things need to change, on a large scale as well.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

So are you/we stupid and lazy for downloading SEIV patches instead of getting them sent on disk via the mail or just not getting them in the first place, as it was done in the old way?

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Just because patience is a virtue dosen't mean impatience is bad.

Impatient people get things done, at least the non-lazy subset of them. The impatient lazy people get others to do it.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

no, the argument is: games such as darwinia and SEIV and probably SEV just dont end up on shelves here. so buying it online is the only way to go. and imho steam facilitates that and in the mean time prevents piracy. also I tought the markups in steam where higher and thus would result either in more profits or lower prices. seing that darwinia is cheaper on steam i'd guess the latter. I'm not saying steam is good for big games such as TES Oblivion (just giving an example I'll definetly buy in a box) simply because you can have that in a box with fancy manual and such.

imho steam gives these special games an easy distribution platform. ppls go like. ah it's just $20 we can try it. and then you're wonderfully surprised (as in the case of darwinia) or somewhat dissapointed (as in the case of ragdoll kung fu)

if both games were boxed I would have bought neither because all boxed games here are 40 to 50 € (compare that to 12 or 15 € which Ragdoll Kung fu and darwinia cost me).

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Steam does not actually prevent any piracy, however. It stops totally casual piracy of just giving a copy to a friend, but there are cracks for pretty much every piece of software out there...

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Can't stop piracy except for total tyranny.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Besides, the FSM will ensure there is always at least one pirate on the planet.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Eh, Fyron, this was actually one of the worst posts i have seen from you since my reg. Comparing patches to a game is just crap, especially considering there is usually only one way to get a patch: Downloading it in the first place. Secondly, a patch is meant to fix or enhance something, its not a product on its own.

no offense btw.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

It was an entirely legitimate post... In the old days before Internet, patches generally had to be shipped in the mail or hand delivered. Or even worse, you might have to wait for the next version of the software to be sold! It is only the modern era that has patches available for download. I see little difference here. It is still part of the software model. If you are going to call people stupid and lazy for downloading purchased games, you have to call them stupid and lazy for the patches too.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

I'm forced to disagree Fyron. Patches aren't games.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

I never said they were games... I said the model is the same. You can't blatantly insult people for wanting one thing via download but not the other. It just doesn't make sense. There is no difference... Should we call people that buy music from Itunes stupid and lazy? How about TV shows and movies (eventually) from Google Video? How about everyone that bought SE3? It was downloaded...

Just look back at the post... "They just want to sit on their chair, click, download stuff and enjoy it, without thinking about what they actually did and how stupid it actually is, compared to doing it the "old way". " Getting patches from the Internet is most certainly "sitting on your chair, click, download stuff and enjoy it."

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

Valid points. Especially the iTunes one. Kudos.

TT

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

I personally think that comparing buying a game online and downloading it is not the same thing as downloading a patch. The main difference is that you don't pay for a patch. It is just something offered for free to enhance the experience you have with a game you already purchased.

The iTunes example is sound tho. I think that it is a questionable practice to download anything that costs money. Assuming of course that you care about your money and dont really want to end up paying for it again if something goes wrong.

Re: SEIV via Steam
 

To download a game instead of shipping a CD has more to do with cost than laziness for me. For SE IV I paid almost as much for shipping than for the game itself (I live in Europe), while downloads cost nothing for me as I have a cable internet access with no restriction on data amount or time.
Of course if I was in the US with a dialup connection the opposite might be true.