Machaka in CB
 

I was a big fan of Machaka, until I played MP and really analysed the game. Its not exactly that they're bad, its that they aren't good when you compare them to just about any other race. Lets begin with the biggest problem: black hunters.

I discussed this with a couple people in the multiplayer irc room, but I wanted to lay out the case properly here. Black hunter stats (initial form) are as follows:
HP: 13, Pro: 22, MR:11, Mor:14, Str:11, Att: 12, Def: 10, MV:20

CB takes a step in the right direction and at least gives them lances. But the fact of the matter is that these stats in no way justify a 125 gold cost. They have 3 attacks, but with an att of 12 they don't hit enough. With a def of 10, they get hit plenty, and with only 13 hp they need to rely completely on their 22 protection for any kind of use. They also have a size 6 which means they can get ganged up on in a serious way.

At 125 gold, they're (I believe) the second most expensive national unit - to the hydra (at 250 gold). Lets compare these to other units with the same exact effects - machaka spider knights for instance, 45 gold (non-sacred).

Stats are as follows:
HP: 12, Pro: 18, Mor: 11, MR: 10, Att: 11, Def: 13

For 45 gold, nearly 1/3 the cost you get a unit that has better defense, 1 point lower attack, and 4 points lower protection.

But you also get 4 attacks - one being web spit which actually hits (since its an area attack unlike the black spider bite).

Counting recruitment cost alone - 3 spider knights will at all times be superior to 1 black hunter. In upkeep cost, two spider knights will again be superior to 1 black hunter.

Now lets take a look at a different race completely and compare: Pyth (Serpent Cult) has Serpent Cataphracts, these like the machaka spiders also get a mount that fights when its rider dies, and the mount rocks (22 protection (although maybe that was with e9 bless)) and has a similar amount of HP I think ~45.

The Serpent Cataphracts base stats are as follows:
HP: 12, Pro: 18, Mor: 12, MR: 10, Str: 12, Att: 12, Def: 14.

They are sacred and have a 52 gold cost (and a massive 58 resource cost - but for now we focus on gold).

The base stats on the serpent cataphract are nearly equal to the hunter spider - you lose 4 pro, but gain 2 str, 2 att, and 4 def. At least they're comperable.

The problem is that they're ~40% the cost. Less than half. They are resource expensive, and that is some kind of balance. But all things considered at 52 gold a piece, they're decent units. Py SC also has access to two different kinds of hydra (which I believe are seriously underrated and at cost so wildly outpace hunter spiders as to be laughable).

The only sacred unit that might be close to as bad is the Knight of the Chalice, at 90 gold who gets no second form. Its initial form though is much better rounded, and more importantly Mar gets flagellants which gives the bless strategy seeker flexability - IE: he can spam flagellants early, then when he needs something with survivability and punch can take KoCs.

And that leads us to my final problem with Black Hunters, bless strategies require very bad scales - in order to make up for those awful scales early - you need to be able to expand very quickly in the early game. With only one sacred unit available to Machaka, at 125 gold a piece - you cannot field groups of black hunters larger than 4 in the early game. And a group of 4 black hunters has neither the survivability nor punch needed to justify 500 gold in the very early game.

Thats my case against machaka spiders. Here are my suggestions on making them better for CB 5.3:

First, make spider knights sacred. This gives machaka a little bit more flexability, and allows a bless strategy to field enough of them early to be effective. The cost for a spider knight should increase as appropriate to somewhere between 50-60 (they have worse stats than serp cataphract which cost 52).

Second, instead of reducing the cost of the Black Hunter - buff him till he's worth it. Through a change in equipment or base stats, increase his defense to 14-16, str to 12-13, and attack to ~14. Or a less radical buff with a cost decrease.

Lastly, Javelins. Even with the hefty CB cost reduction they aren't worth it. They simply never hit. I would suggest increasing cost to javelin infantry by 1-2 across the board, and buffing the precision to 0 (perhaps with a -1 dmg to justify the still low cost). Cherry's Recruitable Rebalance takes this approach to javelins which gives them an excellent niche, and makes them effective against lightly armed troops when used in conjunction with other troops, which is as it should be.


After all that, I should note that I am pretty new to MP, and its possible I'm wrong about all this - and just haven't used black hunters correctly. . . doubtful, but possible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I think you named the thread wrong. You don't have problems with Machaka, but with Black Hunters. In that I can agree with you. Black Hunters are very expensive, the first form isn't worth the cost, and sacred warriors shouldn't be required to die before they are worth their cost... except as a Marignon theme! Undead flagellants! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif (Not very probable, though!)

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I almost never use the black hunters until I have lots of gold stored up or coming into my kingdom. And when I do use them I make sure they travel with some strong mages to provide increased bonuses for their survival.

Also the rider of the black hunter is not that useful... it's the huge spider which lives a much longer time afterwards. Yet as mentioned earlier these only appear Mid and Late game for my armies.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I (the player) felt Fear for my units when I first saw the black hunter... then disappointment as he couldn't really do anything. NTJedi, do you actually find them useful when they are buffed, or would other high-protection units do just as well?

Re: Machaka in CB
 

thats exactly the thing - they LOOK amazing, but the best thing about them is their sprite.

EDIT: the problem with the second form is that its crappy. A single attack, moderate protection and 55hp. Not to mention any bless effects which are good for the spider suck for the rider, and vice versa. You are paying a huge premium for something that doesn't really help. If the warriors could dismount during combat and you had both units fighting seperate then they'd be a fair deal (125 for two units at 60 a pop) - but when you get in a situation where the rider dies, often its a situation where having the spider come next doesn't really help.

and again - the serpent cataphracts are almost exactly the same unit as the black spider for 75 less gold per pop.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

It's the old problem with the gold cost, unit stats and mounts. In general, you pay somewhat for getting a mounted unit. With some units, you pay for a unit with double hitpoints (1st and 2nd form), but as you only get them one after the other, price increase isn't that big. (=> Mictlan animal warriors, Serpent Cataphracts)

But with the Black Hunters, you basically pay as if you had a 12+45HP, size 6 unit with 4 attacks and poison resistance all time long, not only after the rider dies and you're left with an afflicted spider.

There's one exception, though: Jotunheims Moose Riders. Instead of 2x 8HP, they get about 45 HP - from the Moose.

So there are 2 alternatives:
Price the Black Hunters similar to other nations 2-form blessable units.
Or add a %tage of the mounts HP to the first form. E.g. a knight might get +5..+7 from the horse, the Black Hunters would get +20HP. Some mounts hitpoints might be difficult to figure out, maybe +5HP per point of size the mounted unit is bigger than the unmounted rider would be as a general rule (what would not acount for exceptionally sturdy or fragile mounts, though)

HP values might be off somewhat, I'm too lazy to look them up, and I don't know them by heart. hmmm, should I ?

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I don't think there's a problem... have you ever tried using Black Hunters with N9 + E9, W9, or F9? They are weak against MR saves (in the default game)... and otherwise ungodly powerful.

Nothing else is similar. Hydras are not sacred, as sacred hydras require a very weak theme. So for the same gold and half the upkeep, you can pit two double-9 blessed spiders against a hydra... and you'll win.

And I could be wrong... but I thought the only mounts that stay with you after the rider dies (and after the battle ends) were Black Spiders and Gryphons. Units that fight a little then run away don't concern me.


They are not afflicted... the second form is pristine when the rider dies, IIRC. And with the usual nature bless, they are already poison-immune (or resistant?)


Essentially, you're approaching the 'problem' from the wrong angle. Black Hunters, like many sacred units, may be worthless without a strong bless... but strong blesses exist, so you have to compare them BLESSED. Marignon, Ulm, Man and Abysia also have units that benefit from Nature-9 blessing, but... only Black Hunters (of the four) regenerate a useful amount of health, or gain a useful amount of protection (having natural rather than metal armor). Unless countered by MR-save spells, Black Hunters / Spiders with a strong 99 bless can wipe out much more expensive armies easily. Not to mention that Spiders are upkeep-free in the base game (IIRC).

Try playing a game against some AIs on impossible, using nothing but N9F9 or N9E9 Black Hunters... and some support mages.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

Two quick notes:

I'm not saying that black hunters suck per say. I'm sure that with a F9 bless, in the late game, you can field 30 of them and have it be an effective force.

But if you are at a point in the game where gold still has real value to you - then black spiders simply are not worth the cost. In fact I'll make this bold statement to put things in perspective:

Spider Knights are better at cost. Even unblessed.

At 45 gold each, you can field ~14 of them for the cost of 5 black hunters. And I guarentee you 14 spider knights will win, even with F9W9. Not only would 14 spider knights beat 5 black hunters head to head but more importantly they will also do better vs a variety of units: all the way up from independants to thugs, and summons.

At worst, the black hunter is about equal to a knight, (although in a 1v1 I think the knight will probably win if it gets the first hit) so obviously they aren't that bad. What they are is: not worth their cost.

I'm not anywhere near suggesting a 20hp buff (which I think would push their cost past gold and into gems), what I'm suggesting is to raise their attack to around 14, their defense to around 14-16, their strength to 12, with a 5-20 gold cost reduction. Which at least makes their initial form effective.

But still, an E9N9 bless on a black hunter seems sorta weak. The berserk is basically guarenteeing the death of the rider, once dead E9N9 basically gives you a weak troll. So you're taking awful scales so you can afford a double 9 bless for what is effectivly 120 gold for a 50 gold knight that when dies turns into a 60 gold troll.

I can't see how thats worth while.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I agree with Saber Cherry 100%. Hunters need strong bless to be effective and worth the cost. If you put points in, for example, F9 N9 blessing they get so powerful that 125 seems cheap. The fact that mount stays after rider dies also justifies their cost. I've been playing Machaka a lot on both SP and MP (in fact they are my favorite) and always have been using black hunters to great effect. Besides, hunters are troops you will be buying in late MP game when SC's rule, and for troops that is rare occurrence.

The rest of the troops actually balance hunters even more. They are CHEAP and designed for single purpose in mind so nearly every troop (except Machaka militia) has a use and is inexpensive.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

...no, sorry. That's just wrong, IMO. Ignoring the fact that the resource and upkeep costs are totally different, the Black Hunters (N9F9, not F9W9) would still win.

It allows a small group of them to ride over virtually all indies with no losses - at the beginning of the game, when you have no good magic spells for your mages. You're not weighting protection heavily enough in your calculations - almost nothing can hurt them!

How? I don't follow. Berserk adds protection, making them even more invulnerable, and keeping them from retreating like a small party of Spider Knights would do.


A weak troll? With more hitpoints, berserk +3, no upkeep, lethal poison, magical flaming weapons and a high attack (or reinvigoration and additional protection)? Maybe you mean "Stronger and better than a troll in every way." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Well... perhaps you've never seen them used effectively. Hunter Spiders make Machaka tie with Neifelheim as the easiest nations for a total beginner to play and destroy the AI with (N9E9 bless in each case), simply because each nation has a "Ultra Power Troop".

Before deciding that they are massively underpowered, try a quick game against some AI opponents, as I suggested... unless the enemy has access to MR-save (or very strong armor-negating) magic, it's an easy victory while really only building Black Hunters. Which other nations can do that? I don't believe you will keep your opinion after testing them, or being on the receiving end in multiplayer.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I'm also with Saber Cherry on this one. Yes, the black hunters are expensive - but I suspect that your 5 N9E9 black hunters will actually kill your 14 spider knights, halfzware. Regeneration, and better armor / strength, and they go berserk and so won't rout. Nor will they pick up afflictions as quickly as the spider knights.

In addition, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the Hunter Lord. Prophetize one, and it's an instant, turn 3 thug, almost a mini-SC, and that's without even giving it anything like a charcoal shield or amulet or luck.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

Gryphons don't stay after the battle. Nor do serpents, lobsters, or wolves. I can't think of anything except Giant Spiders and Hunter Spiders that do. (I'm not counting the various shapeshifters.) The others are just vengeance attacks. With Black Hunters the Hunter Spider is what you're buying.

What you're buying is almost twice the hit points of a Jotun Woodsman for 2.5 times the cost. Low strength but the poison and, especially, web makes up for it. Protection and defense are better. What you're buying is 4 times the hit points of a Knight of the Chalice while giving up 4 prot and 3 def and paying 1.39 the cost. Like any big troop they are vulnerable to masses of f9 Flagellents or Jaguar Warriors but I'd expect them to dominate an equal cost of Niefel Giants. They seem competitive.

They do tend to get afflictions since the blow that kills the rider tends to have a high damage / current HP ratio but a N9 blessing stops this.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I've never even considered that... a Bane Spider or 4-holy Voice is always too tempting. But it's an interesting idea, especially once your prophet turns into a dumb animal that can no longer share his revelations with the masses, but has 150 HP... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I can't remember ever having a riderless Hunter Lord. Does the mount still have leadership?

Re: Machaka in CB
 

You know what. In what might be an absolute first in the history of internet forums, I'm gonna admit I think I am wrong.

With an E9N9 bless, they really might be worth it. I always tested them with F9/somethingelse, but the protection bonus from berserk and the protection from e9 actually makes the second form useful - and make both survivable with regen.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

Re: Machaka in CB
 

True, it's not a lot of regen - but with 27 protection, they don't tend to take much damage, even with the open-ended roll. And because they go berserk, they tend not to rout, even in small numbers, often driving the opposing forces from the field after they would have routed, if not for berserk.

So - 2 regen I find is often enough, especially since, as importantly as anything, it gives 1/10 the chance of afflictions. Oh, and the E9 bless gives 4 fatigue back a turn, so they don't accumulate fatigue so quickly as to allow their protection to be halfed.

Don't remember if they keep the magic, but definately keep leadership - my prophet stayed prophet after losing the rider, and was still leading the other spiders around. Think he still had enough holy for blessing, although I usually try to send a cheap priest to do that since the hunter lord does have spell casting encumbrance of 16.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I ran a bunch of tests on black hunters over the last couple nights.

The N9 bless isn't worth it for regen on the first form, the benifit is berserk adds attack - which the hunters need as their attack rating sucks (for high end troops). Also, the berserk + e9 bless brings their armor to 27 i think, which gives them survivability against non-ap troops.

The second form also benifits from the dual bless giving them over 20 armor, and 5-6 pts of regen - which again... makes them worth it.

If you use them in packs of 5 or more, they are imo actually worth it, as they're capable of handling groups of 15 knights solo (with support they should keep their casualties and afflictions low enough to make it worth while).

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I find it actually kind of strange that the black hunters do not spread fear. Actually, I can't imagine something that is more terrifying than a huge hairy spider.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I have to disagree with everyone who is promoting the Black Hunters as a bless platform. While I will certainly not debate that a N9E9 (or other heavy bless) spider is quite formidable, the truth is that you simply cant deploy enough of them to have an effect. In the early game, sure you will do tons of damage. But in the mid or late game? Forget it - your spiders are WAY too juicy of a target for mages not to slaughter. A handful of Magma Bolts into a formation of black hunters and - oh my!! you just lost 350gp worth of units, so sorry! Or any of the one-shot one-kill spells like Soul Slay or Paralyze? They frequently target the largest units. Not to mention that un-mounted Hunters have horrendous MR.

No, Black Hunters are just not worth it. Any benefit you might gain in the early game will rapidly erode as the game progresses. And then you will be left in mid/late game with bad scales and a blessable unit you can no longer use.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

Check out all the spider-love in this thread.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

Imagine yourself, at the army recruiting center, with four possible assignments:

1) Front lines, against berzerk flaming spiders of Machaka.
2) Scout out the Unfettered that may be oozing around the area, devouring villages.
3) Sleep with an Illithid until you conceive a Star Child.
4) Go into the Void Gate, and, uh... pray.

Dominions isn't a pretty place. I don't like big, hairy spiders either, but... they might not be the scariest things out there. Personally I'm much more afraid of giant lampreys. A nation consisting entirely of kangroo-legged bipedal leeches and lampreys would be horrifying, especially if they could latch-on to enemy soldiers's backs, drill into their spinal columns with a toothed tongue, and puppet the host's body while its mind is still conscious by directly driving the spinal nerve axons, forcing them to fight their friends while screaming "Get it off me! It's sucking me dry!!"

Spiders are scary the way space ameobas or carnies are scary. Kangaroo-leeches, especially undead ones, are utterly terrifying - like multivariable calculus final exams.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

This has been drawn by the artist Dorian Cleavenger http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.
Doesn't really look like the worst out of the 4 possibilities. It's not nice but i would say overall its the best out of the 4 possibilities you listed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

OT: I agree with Ironhawk. Unless we are playing a game on a rich world what breaks Machaka as a bless nation is especially the huge resource cost. Even with CB 38 resources (don't know vanilla cost). Keep also in mind that with CB each point of sloth is -15% resources.
Iirc base resource points at your capitol are 80 on normal world richness.

For E9N9 you probably take the earthmother. Machakas heat 2 preference helps somewhat, 120 free points from heat 3 scale. But still your scales suffer a lot. Also keep in mind how expensive Machakas Mages are (expect the witch doctor but iirc he has a built in research cap so he doesn't profit from positive magic scales). Also to get more resources you will probably take another castle than the watchtower which is further limiting you.

Compare Black Hunters to White Centaurs. They do awesome with a N9E9 bless too but cost about half of the gold and less then 1/3 in resources iirc. So Pan needs no productivity to produce their sacreds and it even benefits somehow by turmoil scale with the maenads.
Machaka has +120 points from heat 3 but Pan doesn't need productivity and turmoil is not that bad for them neither with the maenads.

All in all in a game with normal richness the black hunters are likely not worth it i would guess. How many of them can you recruit in the first 20 turns? I would be surprised if you get averagely more than 20.
20 Black hunters are still impressive but as Ironhawk says from turn 20-30 on battlefield magic gets so dominating that they are not as useful anymore. Ctis e.g. likely already has banefire and relief by then. 10 Sauros cost only 1800 gold but i am 99% sure they beat easily 20 Hunters which cost 2500 gold.
Ctis is maybe a bit extreme since they are one of the nations with extremely potent battlefield magic in midgame but pythium and arco could give machaka quite some trouble too and vanheim probably also.
Finally there is the question how they would do vs. a SC God. My assumption is that they can't beat a good earlygame SC God like a Cyclops or a VQ.
If uberblessed sacreds can't beat an earlygame SC God and don't have a useful other ability like stealth or ultra cheapness i rate them second rate. If we pick the VQ example:
Mictlan wins vs. the VQ with eagle warriors.
Vanheim has valkyries. So they also win. The vans are stealthy, that's ultravaluable. I always thought Gandalf exagerates some months ago when he wrote about stealth but QM tought me how useful stealth is.
Jotuns Niefels are so strong that they will probably kill a VQ too.
Pans White Centaurs might lose but they are stealthy. And Pan could employ a few harpies for help.

The Hunters though most likely lose vs. a true VQ.

But the other stuff Machaka has is very diverse and useful. Their mages are rather good and quite flexible and most of their troops are useful too. All in all Machaka is a very balanced nation.
Their troops all have some weaknesses though. I am no real Machaka expert (only played a few SP games with them and one vanilla longterm game which deceased on turn 8x because of server crash, but because the game was vanilla i hoarded ...) but i always had problems with using their troops really well. They seem balanced but if you compare them to the great troops other nations like Ctis or Pan have i always silently cry.
For their main problem, the low morale i have found no solution.
I think hoplites together with a few militia as chaff and archers are ok and bane spiders are ok though resource intensive stealth squads, the other troops seem all very niche though.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

Machaka needs high ressources for recruiting
- Hoplites
- Spider Knights
- Spider Warriors (heavy stealth troops; cap only)
- Bane Spiders (heavy assassines; way overpriced in vanilla, as they are capitol only and easily die to standard indie commanders)
- Black Hunters (cap only)
- Hunter Lords (cap only)

As nobody builds Spider Knights, Machaka actually only needs high ressources in it's capital, and could get along very well with a watchtower and a +50 ress site there.

Furthermore, unless you stumble upon some sages, you'll have to rely on Sorceresses for research (cap on Witch Doctor) and Black Sorcerers for spellcastings and battle magic. Both are cap only, too, further limiting the numbers of melee commanders one could build.

I always found it hard to get spiders or stealth troops in any meaningful quantity.

Compare that to Jotunheim (blessable Herses everywhere with Watchtower), Vanheim (...), Mictlan (ultra-cheap Animal Warriors), etc.

Machaka surely looks very interesting and diverse on paper, but unless you are in a very slow game, your possibilities are severly limited: Buying knights with 12HP which turn easily into spiders with MR4 isn't very high on the priority list, if you have only 1 place to recruit them. Especially, if you have to recruit your mages and your inf (high admin castle) there as well. And on top of it the troops (not to speak of the commanders) are as expensive as mages, so they do not only soak up the ressources, but the gold as well.

Oc, part of the fun with the game is to play your nations strenghts and work around the shortcomings. But it would be greater fun if it was about putting emphasis on one path, instead an absolute this-or-that decision.
As it is now, IMHO it makes more sense to build Sorceresses and Hoplites, with the occasional Black Sorcerer mixed in, than to wait for the spider force to build up to a usuable level over severel turns.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

I also tend to agree with Ironhawk & Boron. However, I like to play Machaka already as it is. They are fine, (especially with the ConceptBalanceMod)!

Nevertheless I think it is foolish to try a bless strategy with Machaka in MP. I recall that in one of the lost elder threads (aka the posts that were written before the great forum update happened, which lost them forever in history) discussing machaka strategies, everyone agreed that a bless strategy would not work, simply because it costs so much and pays off so late. The advice was to go with good scales to build lots of Spider Knights (& some Archers, Chaff and Black Sorcerors every turn that I could afford one - of course). This worked pretty well for me in MP thus far. Without ever building more than five Black Hunter, of course.

So what scales can you drop for a bless? Order & Productivity are required to build your sacred troops and death costs money too. Without money and resource, the number of sacred troops becomes to small to pay off the disadvantges...but then again I cannot see any bless strategy really working with most other nations either.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

Units seldom used, Mar 2004
Advice on Machaka appreciated, Apr 2004
Effective army for Machaka, Jun 2004
Gryphon Rider too weak? Jun 2004
Machaka and their spiders, Dec 2003


Does it happen to be any of these? I used the forum search engine. The first I found with
+machaka +"hunter spider" +blessing ,
more after leaving the blessing out of the search.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

Now I'm no expert, but... I think it really depends on the size of the game. The longer the game, the more punishing bad scales are.

Re: Machaka in CB
 

cant see bless wroking... ever heard of f9 w9 vans? e9 n9 neifel jarls? f9 s/a9 flagelants?

Re: Machaka in CB
 

EDIT: The following post was meant as a direct reply to Endropez' very helpful post of a Machaka/BlackHunter/Bless-related thread-links list!

(Somebody here has too much time... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

Yes, I probably had Daynarr's comment and rabelais' comment from the "Advice on machaka appreciated"-thread in my mind. Only PvK seemed to disagree within this thread, but maybe I got the wrong impression.

Oh, and you missed other threads tackling the issue:

• "Newb Q: Pretender options for Machaka?": Zen's advice for beginners, which continues with "Machaka needs gold"
• "Last question (I hope) on magic learning strategies (Machaka or similar multi-path)?": Here a blessing strategy for Machaka is briefly contemplated as well, but no one really speaks much in favour of it.

Anyway, now that all these threads have been uncovered again, everybody can make up his own opinion what people once thought about it, for whatever that actually matters today...(Cast ritual: Knowledge of the Ancients) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
From my experience I just say Machaka is much more powerful with Order+3, Productivity+3 (Hoplites & Spide Knights are cute) than without but with some bless...

Re: Machaka in CB
 

Hmm, I am playing small maps and I would say the exact opposite, since a large map means a long game and plenty of sites, thus plenty of gems and thus plenty of summons and magic, making ordinary troops obsolete (but that is just a naive guess of mine). I'd say that having money/resources early on makes it possible to conquer your enemy mainly with common troops on a small map (mid-game).

However, research is usually also limited by money for buying and maintaining expensive mages, so accoding to the music currently in my headphones I sing along "Counterfeit dollars or english zloty, anything I can get. I want more!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Re: Machaka in CB
 

Of course, one (not very dependable) way to get gold is to take Luck-3, Death-3, at least with the CB mods having increased the relative value of luck. Getting 200, 500, even 1000 or 1500 gold in an event can make up for quite a bit of otherwise bad scales. (Similarly, getting a staff of storms, ring of wizardry, etc).

Re: Machaka in CB
 

ive been doing some testing recently and ive found that a bunch of cheap mages spamming blind is AMAZING vrs indies, with the back-up of 2 or 3 offensive casting higher end mages they can go against non-missle/flying indies (i tested at lvl 7 or 8 indies with maybe 10 lower end mages) without any guard, although a little gaurd is neded vrs cavalry such as knights.

just set the black sorcerers to use high damage spells like magma eruption (if they have earth boots) and the blind just makes it so much easier (they also go very well with true armies just to give you the advantage)

Re: Machaka in CB
 

What makes the hunter spiders good is the life and above average protection, what makes the hunter spider bad is the cost.
From my experience an army taking new territories will do better spending that gold on Machaka Hoplites. Pound per pound of gold and upkeep, the Hoplites are a better investment unless you're moving into a territory with crossbowmen/longbowmen.

During ugly battles the black hunters will have a better chance of survival at the end because of their life and protection... unless you're going against lots of mages. MR is a weakness they have so have these big spiders avoid the more powerful enemy spellcasters.
From my experience they last longer then most knights and mounted units..... not the rider... the spider. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Machaka in CB
 

... a slimy tentacle rose from the deep and out clarion called out deep within the madness.

Furblog!

Re: Machaka in CB
 

They might not be the scariest thing... but they are definitly scary. Most people fear spiders and the likes on a subconscious level. And those spiders are seldom larger than your hand. I imagine that a spider of the size of an elephant would be very scary sight, especially if it comes running for you.