OT: Something worrying
 

Jesus debate

First: Catholic Church. I'm not a member. Normally, I don't get involved when someone challenges them. I might favor one or the other, but A) I'm not an activist and B) It's not my job to play judge and/or jury.

Second: Someone trying to prove Jesus didn't exist. Affects me rather strongly; I'm a Christian.

Third: Billions of people are not. Still affects them. Someone is trying to legislate a belief system. We all have them, wether we label them 'God', 'Brahma', 'Zeus' or 'Atheism'. I can't prove God exists to anybody else; an atheist can't prove (s)he doesn't to anybody else. That's not the point. I have a right to spend the rest of my life convinced he does; the atheist has the right to spend the rest of his or her life convinced he doesn't. We each have the right to try to convince anyone who doesn't tell us to 'go away and don't come back'. We each have a legal right to solicite money for our beliefs; if we actually beleive what we say we do, we each have a moral right to solicite money for our beliefs.

Should God ever tell me 'I'm going to be in this park (Naming one) at noon today, tell everybody', I then have a right to prove to everybody God exists. People would also have a right to beleive that I'm crazy - Even after God showed up.

In other words, I have a right to submit proof of my beliefs to anybody and everybody who has not told me to 'Go away and don't come back'. I even have a right to do so with beleifs I (Theoretically) only pretend to hold - A legal right, even though not in my mind a moral one.

Likewise, the atheist has the right to write a scientific paper which proves, attempts to prove or even is a fake that pretends to prove, that Jesus doesn't exist, and to show said paper to me, provided I havn't told said atheist to 'Go away and don't come back'.

In other words, the atheist, or anyone else on the planet, has a right to submit proof, real, imagined or pretended, in support of their beliefs.

And if Luigi Cascioli plastered his beliefs all over every newspaper, television, radio station and even blog in the world that would give him the right to so publish, even if it was every single newspaper, television, radio station and blog in the world, I still would say 'That is his right; however much I abhore what he says, he has a right to say it.'

But what he doesn't have a right to do is to prevent me from believing what I believe, no matter what I believe, without limit.

In conclusion, I'm not asking you to support the Catholic Church. I'm not asking myself to. I'm asking you to support every persons right to believe whatever they want, including the members of the Catholic Church.

I'm not asking for a response, or money, or votes - Just that you think about it.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Whether it's worrysome or not depends greatly on whether or not the end-times prophecies in the Bible are worrysome. The event seems to fit the feel of them....

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Interesting...

I'm guessing that the court will either decide that the specified laws don't apply to organized religion through a technicality, or that they'll be struck down as overstepping the bounds of the government.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

It does not worry me. Italian courts will throw the case out and that will be the end of it, most likely. Even if the case was upheld and proceeded, leading to the illegality of teaching the existence of Jesus, it would not be a portent of ill times to come. It would be bad for Italy and Italians howerver, by supressing free speech. But here, in Canada, I highly doubt it would directly affect me and my daily life, or the daily life of billions of other people around the world.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Jesus? Yah, I worked with that guy a few years back, good guy but crazy as all get out.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

All the time we're hearing about right-wing christians/muslims/insert faith here or fundementalists or extremists. Well, here's proof that Atheists have them too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I think what this guy's doing is wrong and my 'beliefs' are summed up by secular humanism. I do have one faith in the Catholic Church though...

I have faith that the Vaticans Order of Holy Lawyers will triumph http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

OK, now I really have an urge to post "NOOOOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!" but I have something serious to say about the matter too.

OK, first off, I'm a devout (if you could call it that) atheist, I don't believe in God or any supernatural being, if I were to believe in anything it's be science. I don't believe Christ rose from his grave on Easter, but I do believe he existed. As a person, if nothing else.

There is plenty of evidence for that, but I'm not gonna try and put up some coherent sources here - but think about this: if Christ never existed, how did the Catholic Church ever come into being? Suddenly and inexplicably? No. Religions, much less churches, aren't founded without a prophet. They don't just pop into existence. By far the most logical person to be the prophet for the Catholic faith, is Jesus Christ.

(Still, the question remains - how then did the Catholic church become the [ib]Catholic[/b] church, and not the Christian church? Most world faiths are named after their prophets, or the core ("Islam" means peace) of their faith. Where then did the name "Catholic" come from? There's probably a logical explanation for this, but I don't know it.)

There. That's been said. Now on to other business.

NOOOOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

I do like the bit

'The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned'

So true! Anyone else (bar another religion) trying that, they'd be torn apart by police/trading standards.

If someone says something to you which causes you to give them money and it then emerges they were lying you have legal recourse to get that money back. Unless it's a religion in which case it's gone forever, which I do have a problem with.

I think what he's trying to argue is that the collection plate after a church service is nothing more than "obtaining money by deception" as Jesus probably didn't exist or if he did wasn't the son of God.

I like his style and it does makes me laugh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

"Catholic" means "universal"; this is why even the Protestants believe in "one holy catholic and apostolic church"; it's just that the Roman Catholic church (as well as a few other Christian churches) have made that word part of their name.

As for "Islam", I believe a more apt translation is "submission", i.e. "submission to the will of God"; "Muslim" is thus "one who submits" (to God).

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

That explains a random fact I recently found out: The Anglican church in Japan is called the "Japanese Holy Catholic Church" despite, obviously, being nothing to do with any flavour of Catholicism. Now I know why. Cheers Ed!

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Narf, only the rights of people living in Italy will be effected by this. And only then, in the unlikely event that this guy wins.

El_Phil said:
The problem with this is that religion never really promises anything concrete. For example, everyone was on the edge of their seat waiting for the end in 1999, then again in 2000 when they realised that was the real end of the milenium. But nothing happened. So, does everyone decide that its all bunk? No, of course not. All christians know that the end is coming "someday" but there is no concrete answer as to when. Even in the bible it says that God does not measure time as man does. So, as long as it hasn't happened, it's "coming."

The major problem with this is that it will never emerge that a religion was lying. Even if the end hasnt come by the year 200,000 it will still be "coming" and there will prolly still be christians waiting for it.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

...

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

And to that AT I have to say screw you......I am neither weak minded, gullible OR easily manipulated.

I don't follow easily and I hardly ever give respect without it being earned.

I am NOT a fanatical narrow minded person, I am in fact very open minded and have had friends of numerous faiths and have even had romantic interests for a Wicken girl in my time.....and a buddhist..oh and that jewish girl....and an athiest and a few christian girls.

Basically narrow minded my *** and what you just said is not only insulting but down right stupid and it suprises me that YOU would say it as you are normally quite smart and level headed.

I also have hurt plenty of people for just pissing me off or taking a swing at me without needing to say "God made me" nor have I EVER said God approved of me breaking some idiots nose for saying something nasty about my sister. OR breaking that other idiots nose for taking a swing at me...or etc.

What I'm saying is "more people have been killed for "love" "hate" and jealousy then have EVER been killed in the name of GOd." So you want to be rid of love? because that starts hate and jealousy plenty in human history.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Wow, I can't believe you said that Atro. That's gotta be the most trollish thing posted on this board in the last two years.
*Don't do that again*

Starhawk, you gotta calm down a bit there... you're way overreacting.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

I think that two topics turn off the brain more than anything else. Religion and Polotics.

A small disclaimer here before I get into it. I am not commenting on whether people are right or wrong, and I am not saying that people are idiots for believing one way or the other.

That being said, the reason that people most people turn off their brains on these two topics is called "faith." Most people who have decided to back a certain political belief and almost all people who have religious beliefs have decided that they are going to believe that "no matter what."

People who believe things can't look to logic to find their answers because, in most cases of belief, logic has no answers for them. They must simply believe, or not believe.

This is especially true of religion, where there can neither be proof of or proof against its veracity in your lifetime. If there were proof that a religion was true it wouldn't be called belief. It would just be fact.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Though it is early in the year we have already have a contender for the much uncoveted "Most trollish comment by moderator in any forum" award.

Well done AT. Please don't keep it up.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

I have to say that Atrocities is partially correct. Religion has been the root cause of many deaths throughout the millenia. However, it is usually a twisted view of the religion that prompts people to kill, with notable exception of the Crusades and others where wiping out the "infidels" was the goal.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Without venturing into this minefield, I feel compelled to add one thought. In science, we use rules of review, accepted standards and a multitude of other checks and balances to insure the accuracy of achieved results. We do this will all forms of science with the exception of religion. Think about this, and then make your own decision. What ever answer you arrive at is fine, so long as it is an informed decision and your mind remains open to opposing ideas.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

I didn't say I didn't agree with him, as it happens I'd go along with Renegades answer, just that it's the sort of comment that is only going to provoke people. And not in a productive way, no-ones going to change their opinion or learn anything (except maybe some new explitives or insults)

Whilst there are some forums where epic slanging matches are common, indeed encouraged, I can't say I'm a fan of such places and would prefer if this forum didn't descend to such depths, however briefly.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Sigh... Crazy Italians. Personally, I think we'd all be better off if everyone followed the principle tennent of my religion, the Church of Iscool, which is, basically, I'll believe whatever I want, and you believe whatever you want, and as long as neither of us try to change the other mind, it's cool.
I'm an ardant aethiest, but I've friends from all faiths (hell, my sister's Bhudist [sp]), and we all get along just fine because none of us try to change the minds of anyone else, except for the laugh.
Now if the rest of the world could be like us, I think we'd all be a lot happier.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

So by extention you are calling me a troll for posting my opinion of religion? The fact that you all instantly jumped on the beat Atrocities band wagon just proves my point. That being that people are way to willing to attack any one who does not agree or share their religious views.

I posted what I posted to prove a point.

I do not subscribe to religion, I know that it was created as an instrument of control and is still being used today as such. That millions of people throughout history have been killed in its name, that wars have been fought, justified, and instigated all because of religion.

Religion allows for explotation of the weak. It takes adavantage of peoples willingness to believe. It exploits ones faith and it gives to much control of the individuals right to freedom of choice to those who would use it for ill gains. Look at all the children that have been abused in the name of God by the very people who have sworn their lives to God. Do any of these comments sound familar; "Do this or God will strike you down. God told me that we must do this. It is Gods will that we do what we do. Kill them all and let God sort them out."

It is your right to believe in whatever you wish to believe in. But when you are willing to hurt others in the name of your faith or religion, then a line has been crossed. Your religion is no longer about faith, it is about control.

I have faith, that is all I need. I don't need to belong to any religion or have any group of people tell me that I must believe in their religion to be loved by God.

Having faith is all that matters.



EDIT: I am sorry that I upset many of you. But that was the point. I needed to demonstrate how willing people are to fight for their religious beliefs and or to justify why they must. I respect and have nothing but great admiration for you all.

The comments I posted are exactly what many in the news media have been stating for years now. They attack those of faith to marginalize the Religion. I may not agree with organized religion for many reasons, but I am a man of faith. Playing the devils advocate I posted the comments that seem most painful to hear. The media and many others are attacking religion by attacking those who belong to it. They are attempting to marginalize religion and to make faith anti-politically correct.

If you are willing to fight for what you believe in, as you did here, than there is still hope.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Well, the comment was a little trollish, even if you did not intend it to be Atrocities. If I did agree with you, I would be sure to say it out of earshot of anyone I thought might try to prove the point of the statement by starting a fight.

And everyone needs to remember Rule #1 about online discussions like this: automatically prepend the words "I think that..." to EVERYTHING. And Rule #2, step back for a few minutes and then re-read your post before sending it if you're getting emotional on the subject. It saves everyone a headache.

Now, let's all laugh about it and move on, eh?

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Religion is dangerous, that is why it is best not discussed.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

That second try is better.

Can you honestly say with a straight face that your other post was not trollish?
If so, remind me to never play poker with you.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Actually, AT was labeled a troll for posting his opinion of people with religious views, i.e. "the weak minded, the gullable, those who follow, cannot think for themselves, the narrow minded, the fanatical, and the insane".
Huh? TWO posters (three now) called him a troll, yet "you all" ganged up on poor AT? My, what a brave little martyr he is! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
No responses were needed. AT proved that with his own post. What words did he use? Weak-minded? Gullible? Insane?. All that just for disagreeing with AT? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif
Yes. Not to contribute, not to question, but to provoke an emotional response and then proclaim, "See? I was right!" Hmm, there's a word for that...

[snip rant]
I doubt it, since that was the whole object of the post.
I'd like to thank AT for demonstrating how willing he is to fight for his religious beliefs, and for sharing with us his justification for being a troll.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif Actions speak louder than words.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Having just committed the sin of feeding a troll, I seek to atone by contributing something to the (off-topic) topic.

In his original post, Narf included a lot of "I have the right to...", "the atheist has a right to...", and "he doesn't have a right to...". While that might be true in the country of "CHEESE!" where he lives, that's not necessarily true all over the world. We may all have "natural" rights or "moral" rights, but in practice the only rights we have are those our fellow humans allow us. It's easy to forget that the "rights" currently enjoyed by Narf and his fellow CHEESErs were likely gained by a combination of physical and political force over a period of centuries, and are still subject to those forces today.

In that context, the dispute in Italy is just another skirmish in the ongoing politics of religion. If enough Italians believe in religion, or at least in religious tolerance, then this will be just a tempest in a teapot. If not, then the balance will shift a bit in the favor of the anti-religionists, for now, and the process will continue.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

No really. It was designed to be what it was labled.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Hunpecked - psi-cops are not welcome... Go back to Corp and get out of my mind! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Given AT's candor, it was hardly necessary to read his mind--thank Gore! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

...

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

I have lost all respect I had for you, Atrocities. This is a low point for this forum.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

I do not mean to offend with this question but...why? Why would AT voicing his opinion cause you to lose respect for him? Sure, you may not agree with his opinion, but it is his opinion. Is he not entitled to hold a differing opinion from that of most other people?

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Its not necessarily the opinion, but the trollish method of posting it... Explicitly calling everyone with religious beliefs weak-minded etc. isn't very amenable to civil discussion.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

I agree with everyone AT that was trollish and rather nasty of you as I said.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Though it is generally better to ignore trollish posts than flip out and feed the troll.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Yeah, I think what's driving everyone crazy is that it was a MODERATOR that was behaving in a trollish fashion. When it's a moderator that is being rather directly insulting, where then do moderators get the ... "higher ground" so to speak ... to do little things like edit others' posts, delete offensive posts, and tell others to cool it? Sure, they get the system permisions from the forum administrator, but moderators are supposed to be the ones making sure that such posts are kept to a minimum.

Granted, it was another moderator that told him he was out of line ... and yet, after being rebuked, he hardly apologized or admitted any wrongdoing.

Tell me, who watches the watchers?

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

I fully support AT's right to have his opinions about religious people. We all have an opinion of religious people, whether that opinion be good or bad. However, when you have an opinion like the one AT expressed you should not voice it in public if you want people to like you. Sometimes it is just best to keep your true opinion to yourself.

The fact of the matter is that AT's comments would have sparked anger in almost any group they were applied to. Religious people responding negatively to that post does not in any way separate them from anyone else. It does not show that they are easily provoked to violence. If you call anyone weak minded, insane, gullible, etc. they will become angry. Some people will not necessarily rise to the bait, but I am sure that there are religious people on this board who also did not rise to the bait.

For example, I could say, "Believing we are in Iraq to fight terrorism is for the weak minded, the gullable, those who follow, cannot think for themselves, the narrow minded, the fanatical, and the insane." This would target a large percentage of the American public, Including you AT, judging by some of your other posts. I am sure that if there were a large enough group of those people here I would get called a troll and have people mad at me. Does this mean that the above group is prone to violence? Well, maybe that is a bad example http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Anyway, calling anyone names is going to lead to anger and violence. Just don't do it unless you want everyone to call you a troll and hate you.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

That's why many forums have an informal tradition of mods doing things like

<modhat>
Cool it down or I lock the thread
</modhat>

when talking in their official role.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

Guess I'm a little strange then. I'd laugh at them! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif Always works best to laugh at people when they try to make you mad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

The site admins.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

But honestly, do you think site admins check every single post a mod makes? And when's the last time a site admin posted here?

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

A better question is, when's the last time a site admin needed to post here?

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

To be perfectly honest I think everyone may be overreacting a little too much. Atrocities post was trollish but after reading it I ended up laughing because I wondered if he was trying to live up to his name.

But it's escalated pretty quickly, starhawk's post wasn't exactly cool-headed, understandably yes but look at it now. I log on this morning to find 24 replies, normally reserved for the 'heated' political threads. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Sure Atrocities is a Moderator but do we really have to go through the 'hang the moderator' lynch mob? I've come to expect that kind of straight shooting, honest opinion from him over the years.

Let's be honest, He would have said it without being a moderator! But I guess cries of "revolution! Guillotine!" to those in power isn't limited to my french neighbours http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif (No criticism intended, it's an admirable quality)

It wasn't exactly the most polite opinion ever viewed. It was harsh. But take a moment out, lean back and just wonder if there's a group of people you've felt that about, a topic you might over-react on or an opinion you may have phrased badly. I know I have, on this forum as well.

I guess my point is it was a bad comment and not exactly the best to say in polite company but to 'lose all respect for him' is a little too much.

So bringing the topic around!
Religion? Do you believe it should be mostly a personal belief or mostly an institutionalised one? (i.e. church)

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

He did say that he was trying to provoke reactions... But yeah, probably time to let it slither into the abyss.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

I agree with Narf, that someone's religion shouldn't be forced on someone, and that someone shouldn't be forced to favor one over the other. Organized religions are good if they want to be organized like that, but not nessecary. And I think that harming other people should be out of a religion's reach.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

<Moderator mode /on>
Please let this thread die in peace. You can of course discuss this via PM or in the general forum. Thank you all!
<Moderator mode /off>

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

As i have said to others in the past, even though I am a Christian I do not have a religion. What I really have is a faith based on my beliefs. Trully the word reilion and religious goes out to describe the religious zealots that can be found all over the world, ex. the middle east.

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

What's this TROLL religion about then?
Does it have anything to do with shoes?
What is your sign, oh holy prophet of the Trolls?

*Looks around for any divine sign*

Re: OT: Something worrying
 

<Moderator mode /on>
Boys and Girls, I mean it. Please let this thread die in peace. Thank you all!
<Moderator mode /off>