OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Hi.
The Danish paper Jyllands-posten thought that the media in west had a self imposed cencurship concerning islam.
This came up since a child-book authour couldn't find anyone willing to make drawings under their own name to his book about Muhammed.
The paper sent a letter to 46 drawers associated to the journalists association asing them to make a drawing of Muhammed.
12 of these pictures were published, causing a local protest storm i Denmark in the fall 2005.
A norwegian christian paper re-published some of the pictures later on.
In the late fall some danish muslim leades went on a conference to Kairo and there told of the drawings.
Some muslim countries petitioned the danish prime minister for a meeting discussing the pictures, the danish primem minister refused the meeting saying that the danish goverment had nothing to do with the pictures and couldn't interfere with the free press.
In Januari Fatah lost the Palestinian election to Hamas, to cause trouble for Hamas (A religious organisation) Fatah(A secular organisation) started rotesting and burning danish flags threatening to kidnap all danish people on alestinian soild (If Hamas told the protesters to stop they would lose their credibiity as anislamic organization, if they didn't they would loose western aid, both ways they would seem unfit to govern).
Now the protests are spreading in the muslim world with boycot of danish and norwegian and french products.
The drawings has been republished in January in France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria etc.
Last night the Danish and Norwegian embassys in Syria was set on Fire, the Swedish and Chilenian embassys where damaged.

What is the US response?
The American foreign deartments spokeperson Kurtis Cooper:
"We admit and respect the press freedom of speach, but it must be combined with responsibility. To encourage religious and ethnical hatred in this way is not accepted"
I agree that the pictures propably aren't very god, I've only seen one that depicts Muhmmed with a turban and a fuse (the turban being a bomb), but hey; What pictures hasn't been published with God,Jesus, our political leaders etc.
Don't like the pictures dut don't read the paper then! The Danish Jylland-Post doesn't have that big audiance in the middle East!

Put things into proportion!
I usually am a tolerant person but this time I think that Swedsih papers ought to publish the drawings as well to stand beside denmark in this.

What is your opinion, can we only critize our own religion and not others?

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

To make matters worse, today the Arabic European League (an Belgium Muslem organisatian) has posted two anti-semetic drawings on their website (one with Hitler and Anna Frank in one bed and one picture which denies the holocaust)
Their comment was : ' if you (the west) has an freedom of press, so do we..........'

So I guess that the latest word isn't discussed about this isue, probably there will be an lot of protest today in Holland and Belgium from Jewish-organisations.

As for my personal opinion, I think that it indeed the freedom of press to publish what you like, but keep in account the impact it will/can give. And consider if it is worth the trouble.
As long as those caricature's are sending out an message it is okay with me, when they are only used for insulting and offending than PLEASE don't use them.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Now the Danish Consulate in Lebanon is on fire.

I belive that the main reason to publicise the drawings was inded to insult and demonize the muslims, but that still does not justify the response.
The test of self imposed censorship is I belive a secondary construction.

I do not belive jews will burn any belgian embassy due to those drawings you refer to.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

The cartoons themselves aren't actually very good or particularly clever or subtle. Printing them wasn't big or clever as it was going to cause trouble while not really making any worthwhile point.

However once someone decided to publish it I have to give much credit to the Danish government for backing them up.

Good work Denmark, keep it up.

Re: OT: Muhammad-caricatures and freedom of speech
 

I've been following this story with interest over the past week or so on the web, since the main news programs over here haven't even mentioned it (big surprise...)

I don't consider myself an intolerant person, but who can claim to represent a peaceful religion (Islam) when they resort to violence at every turn? I think the newspaper had every right to publish the caricatures, even if they were insulting, since saying/writing things that some people aren't going to like is what freedom of speech is all about. We wouldn't need laws ensuring freedom of speech if people only wrote/said/drew things that everybody liked!

As for the caricatures "encouraging religious and ethnical hatred"...well that's just a stupid thing to say. No caricature in the world is going to make the average Western person get up in the morning and suddenly decide after seeing the drawing that they hate Muslims! Most people would be amused by the caricatures or just shake their head at the immaturity of it. They sure won't incite hatred. Those feelings would have had to exist previously.

It's a classic example of something that got blown out of proportion.

Not to mention the fact that when European Muslim organizations went to the Middle East to draw some attention to this, they included in the 12 caricatures a few that were NOT published in any newspaper in Scandinavia or anywhere else...and were quite offensive to say the least. Talk about trying to stir up hatred...

Wikipedia has an article on this with a lot more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jylland...ns_controversy

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I agree , the pictures weren't worth the trouble, but again The paper can (thank you democracy and freedom of press) publish them if the want to.........

Indeed it's great work from the Danish Government but also a great job from dozens of European news papers to back their fellow paper and also publish the drawings.

But again , it's a lot of trouble about absolutly NOTHING

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

From my perspective:
The originals weren't worth the ink to print them nor the trouble caused, and the person who decided they were probably ought to be put in charge of something less important, if not out and out fired.
The reprints made specifically to reinforce freedom of the press, were more than worth the ink to print them, more than worth the trouble caused, and those who decided they should be reprinted on that basis probably ought to be praised.
Why?
Well, I consider it important the the press be capable of printing pretty much anything they deem worthy, and although hateful and hurtful things probably ought not be said, I consider it more important that the press not be limited on what they may say in an opinion manner than that they not say hateful or hurtful things.
Does that make sense?

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Ruatha, are you sure about Fatah setting the whole thing up?. If so I can't say they have much of an argument if they are willing to use it to their own advantage.

I believe the whole thing is related to the lack of education in Muslim countries. Because Muslim countries, in part because of Islamic restriction, aren't what you might call centres of intellectualism, the common person is all too willing to lash out violently rather than consider things. Also because of the large gulf between the west and Muslim countries they feel resentment. If they are Muslims (which is arabic for believers in Allah) how is it the West is so much more powerful. As a result they have, if I may put it in such words, a persecution complex. As a result they resort to their religious arguments to call for the destruction of the west, the power and wealth of which they covet. Islam was once a center of science and mathematics, after all they invented the zero and we use arabic numerals, so where did it all go wrong. It's a result of the Mongols. When they swept into the middle east and eastern europe they practically wiped out those cultures resident there. As a result all the learning centers and intellectuals of the Islamic world were destroyed. This pretty much shattered Islamic culture and they haven't recovered since. This also in part explains why Eastern Europe is such a backwater relative to the west, although of course communism is also a major reason. Western Europe, which was saved, continued to develop, explaining in part its dominance.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=85446

interesting article. I do believe there is truth in that Muslims are all for being about voicing their hatreds but get angry(er) when someone does it to them. One last thing I'd like to point out. That whole thing about getting virgins in heaven if you are a martyr, true or not, the belief in it would appear to ring false any idea that some Muslims are for womens rights. Plus my opinion of, if it was possible, terrorists is lower if they are a bunch of sexed obsessed idiots who just want to go to heaven and deflower virginal women.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

"Muslim" I believe actually means "They (or he) who is surrendered to Allah". I might be mistaking for "Islam" however. Never the less, It's not education that is at fault, but fear. The muslim reaction to the cartoon is much like the recent "War on Christmas" fox news and the christian coalition spent millions on or Mike Newdow's lawsuit on the pledge of allegiance.

People simply fear what they don't understand, control, or have. That fear leads to anger and hatred of that and, as a result, they violent lash out at it without logic or reason.

Education and knowledge undoes that - but only if they are willing to grow beyond it.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Dude, i don't think you condemn the whole faith of Islam as mysoginists because of some bull**** story made up to con a few gullible zealots into committing suicide. Your average muslim (especially those living in Western counries) is going to reject that interpretation of the scripture just as quickly as they reject all the other hate-mongering interpretations that have led to death and destruction.

I mean if you base your personal philosophy on a book that was written centuries ago (and this applies just as much to Christians, jews and many other faiths) then you must either learn that some bits of the book just don't apply any more or learn not to take everything literally, or you will end up a medieval anachranism in the 21st century.

I mean if you lived by every literal word of the bible, for instance, you'd be sacrificing bulls to God and stoning your rebellious teenager kids to death...

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Humans sure are a lot better at getting offended and attacking others, than they are at following their own supposed morals.

What irony to attack others in the name of a code that preaches peace, if one bothers to read it. Fear, ignorance, panic, rage, chaos, self-destruction. Humans are a pathetic lot.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Wasn't there also cartoons regarding other religions? You don't see see a bunch of wild eyed bomb throwing buddists rioting in the streets calling for the heads of Danes.
Boy if I went off the deep end everytime I got offended by something I would probably be looked down upon too.
Kinda reminds me of when Triumph the insult comic dog made a remark about the french speakers in Canada. Then people were saying "Your getting angry over a dog puppet"
Now it's "Your rioting and killing people over a cartoon"
Back in 1971 some gunmen fired on people in a movie theatre who went to see the movie "Muhammed: Messenger of God" because they thought the movie actually showed the image of Muhammed. It didn't!
Get a grip Abul!

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I by no means condone their actions but this is what they (extremist Muslims) base their actions on:

"Islamic law, based on clerics' interpretation of the Quran and the sayings of the prophet, forbids depictions of the Prophet Muhammad and other major religious figures — even positive ones — to prevent idolatry."

I absolutely don't agree but that's what many believe.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I wonder about a few things. From what I have seen, most people are not at all offended by the actions or politics of those who kidnap and then behead people in the name of radicalized Islam, yet they become livid pi**ed off over a cartoon? WTF? They expect the rest of the world to take them seriously under this juxtaposition? I think not.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

The original article, and few of the actual comics published, are surprisingly accurate. As far as I understand, the pictures were meant to show the drawers' thoughts on islam, or Muhammed. As an example, one of the pictures shows Muhammed, with a crescent-shaped halo... that, to our direction, looks like devil's horns. One of the pictures has a comic artist looking over his shoulder, afraid. One actually has an auhority figure calming down sword-and-bomb zealots with "Relax guys, it's just a drawing by some Dane there somewhere".

With few of the pictures, like the head-with-fuse, I could understand this, somewhat... I just think the other pictures should be shown as well. They didn't think it would cause such a fuss. Reading the Wikipedia article, Denmark has quite loose laws in many other ways, as well.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Well...that's a rather blanketing statement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

The average individual person can be intelligent, moral and calm. It's the average group of people that's usually moronic, immoral and chaotic.

EDIT: OK, the average individual can be moronic too...at least some of the spelling and grammar errors I made in this post certainly were! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Fixed now. /EDIT

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Perhaps. Humans are certainly more dangerous in groups. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I looked at those cartoons and I have no idea what most of them are supposed to mean or what the point of them are.

You can see the pictures that caused all this trouble here.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

We are fortunate to have had a number of civil rights movements in the area over a period of centuries.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

And that's fine. It's their religion, and they are free to live by the rule quoted above if that's what they want.

The problem arises when people (in this case, muslims) start trying to impose their religious laws on people who do not follow their faith: If I was a muslim, then I would abstain from depicting mohammed, because that's what muslims do (or don't do=-) However, I am not a muslim, and as such I can draw him if I want to. No muslim can demand that I comply with their rules any more than I can demand that they comply with rules specific to christianity or anything else.

Now, a non-muslim might choose not to depict mohammed out of respect to islamic people, and I would very much respect that decision, but that would be a matter of courtesy, not obligation.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Yeah, that's exactly the point, eh? Fundamentalists everywhere seem to feel the burning need to regulate other people's lives for them.

Don't like abortion? Don't have one.
Don't like gay marriage? Don't do it.
Don't like other people's cartoons? Don't buy their newspaper.

etc...

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Don't extend that too far:
Don't like murder? Don't kill anyone without very good cause.
Don't like theft? Don't take anything without proper permission.
Don't like rape? Don't force anyone against their will.

Most would agree that murderers, thieves, and rapists need to be caught and forced to conform to a moral code that doesn't include such activities, but it can be kinda difficult to tell where, exactly, one should draw such lines.....

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

That's all well and good, except for a few things. People who support and have abortions do not believe it's murder. Other's who think they should be illegal, believe it is murder. It is universally accepted that murder is illegal, so who is right, since people have differing and personal views on when "life" begins.

Same sort of thing applies to gay marriage. Sure, someone may not like the idea, but be tolerant of it. But those same people may not want it taught in their children's school that homosexuality is as "natural" as heterosexuality.

My point simply is that we do not live in a vacuum. Things that other people do/do not do can affect us all. Simply saying "if you don't like it, don't do it" is too simplistic in my opinion.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

IMO some of Muslims are very aggressive and violent... and nothing can change that. These cartoons was just the simple reason. They could probably find another, different stupid reason to start anti-catholics/anti-judes/anti-west war.

In Poland we have almost 99% Catholics and lots of jokes, funny comics, books, stories about inquisitors, fanatics burning witches, priests molesting animals, angels behaving like devils... much more offensive than these 12 cartoons and nobody even think about violent demonstrations, throwing stones, and bomb attacks.

Today I saw one picture on x-wars game forum (Players complain that game is very buggy, so it’s like "war with bugs").
http://forum.x-wars.pl/thread.php?po...0520#post20520
I explain that English word “Bug” sound similar to polish word means "God".
I'm catholic and I think it’s offensive, however I know that it's not serious, and just for fun.
Remember a Monty Python’s film "Brian’s Life" (or similar I didn't keep in mind original title)?.... Was controversial. Now it's just classic comedy. When we watched it some times ago even my grandmother (radical catholic) was laughing.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

If they get this upset over a cartoon depicting the Profit Mohamad (sp) telling them to stop the sucide bombings, that they are all out of virgins, then image how mad they would get if they had depicted him having sex with a pig while drinking a fifth of scotch or something. "Druken and in love with ham."

I think the world understands that there are two standards being applied. Our standard, that being free speech and equal rights, the their standard, that being what it is.

Given a choice between the two, I will always choose freedom over oppression. No one in the world are going to take them seriously until they can learn to control their tempors and behave like civilised human beings.

But if your out to make them angry, at least you now know how to do it.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I say non sequitur here. Abortion, Gay Marriage, cartoons... they all really have no affect on the people protesting it other than it really annoys them and gets their britches up in a bunch. Murder, theft, rape... those are crimes directly against other people. Completely different class there, and comparisons between one do not carry over to the other.

And I know there are people who believe that an embryo is a fully human entity, and abortions are the same as murder. This belief is not nearly as universal as belief that murder, theft, and rape are wrong. So these people will just have to deal with the current implementation of the law, which basically states "it's not human until the fetus can live outside the womb". Don't like it? Don't get an abortion. Nobody's forcing you to. Still don't like it? Well, volunteer, and maybe convince some of these girls and women to consider some alternatives. Resorting to fear tactics, harassment, witholding safe-sex information, plotting to kill doctors... these things don't help the case much.

Ok, and I apologize for hijacking the thread, and bringing the OT even more OT.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

At, who exactly is the "they" you refer to in this post? Muslims in general? Most Muslims do no associate themselves with suicide bombers, just as most Christians tend to distance themselves from the Spanish Inquisition and Timothy McVeigh. Or are you setting out to be delibrately offensive in order to make a point?

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I think the context is fairly clear, that "they" refered to those who "(got) this upset over a cartoon depicting the (prophet Mohammed)". With "this upset" refering to the ones that got so upset that they went bat**** crazy, basically started riots, and got themselves killed. And AT's post is basically saying "DAMN, CALM THE **** DOWN!"

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

In my country we have people painting pictures of the Virgin Mary and smearing them with feces... and no fundamentalist Christians burn down any embassies... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Yes, and wasn't there also a crucifix suspended in Urine? I was more offended at the government grant that the guy got than the possible sacriligious image. I'm pretty thick skinned and have a real demented sense of humor. Once in a great while I will get offended. But I'm a big boy now and I can deal with it.
Maybe those muslims should go have a beer and eat some porkrinds, maybe go fly a kite or something. Too much religion not enough ethics!

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Thank you, well said.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

More often than not, Extremist and Fundamentalist Religious leader ethics boils down "Do as I say, not as I do."

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

One one the cartoons that was shown in the Arab countries showed the Prophet having intercourse with a pig, Atrocities. However, it was not published in the newspaper but got sorted out ahead. But it was one of the contestans for being published.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

OMG! Well thank God that they never published that one.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Thing is, when a European Muslim organization went to the Middle East and drew attention to the whole thing, they included 3 cartoons in addition to those published in Europe. These 3 were NOT published anywhere, but were included, presumably to inflame those people in the middle East. Those 3 included: 1) The picture Baron described. 2) A picture of a Muslim bent over praying, and a dog...doing what they do. 3) I'm not sure what this one was, but it was similarly offensive.

As you can see, it's no surprise the Muslim world became inflamed.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Oh how I really want to go on the record here and rant but I made a promis. http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...undercloud.gif

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

No rant, just explain your position http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'd like to hear it.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I think you mean "thank Allah".

BTW, I'd like to excercise my freedom of speech and publish my own caricature of Mohammed. Here it is:

:^(#

(Note the beard). He's unhappy because of all the stupid phongwits running around killing people in his name.

Someone with some sense: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4699716.stm

EDIT: Oops, looks like shrapnel have turned off the auto-censor. Language moderated.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Remember that old joke about the three biggest lies in the world? Well I think it’s time to take a new survey and perhaps change the list.

Islam advertises itself as a religion of tolerance, but it does not appear that way to me. It looks more like a religion of intolerance and absolute control. But then I'm probably a little biased in my view, having a less than enthusiastic view of religion as a whole.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

There's a difference between the religion and the most moronic and violent people from the same culture. The West has violent morons too, and the Islamic militants are incited by people they trust telling them how intollerant and terrible the Westerners are.

All it takes is one incited moron with a destructive plan to have a chance to ruin or end other people's lives and get on the TV.

Then all it takes is a moron politician to use this as an excuse to erode civil rights a bit more and create some more security pork-barrel projects.

PvK

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Its funny that they advertise Islam as the religion of tolerance, yet when reasonable people say wait a minute, how come the Imans aren't coming out in droves denouncing the beheading of kidnap people, and the suicide bombings that kill hundreds of inocent people, especially children, yet they come out in arms over a stupid series of cartoons.

Those reasonable people who say wait a minute are then cast as the "bad guys" because they dare say "wait a minute Islam is not a religion of peace and tolerance."

Perception, actions speak louder than words. Right now the perception that many people have, including me, is that Islam is not a religion of peace and tolerance. It is a religion of intolerance and hatred.

I don't see that many people standing up and saying "Stop the violance. Stop the murdering. Stop the bombings." It appears that perhaps they are ok with this and want more. It is sickening to think that people will riot and kill other people over a catoon, yet stay home and laugh when people of their own religion blow up a school yard full of kids in the name of the Islam.

Like I said, a religion of hatred. Its ok to kill people, but its not ok to draw a cartoon. WTF?

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I believe that the Fundamentalist elements of certain countries are using this event to their advantage to foster even further fear and mistrust among their own people.

Nevertheless, can you imagine if a Fundamentalist Islamic country were to become a Nuclear power...lets say "there was no holocost" Iran, the same country that officially approves of the destruction of Israel. How long would it take from the time they get a nuclear device to the time they detonate it over Tel-Aviv? Makes you wonder.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Religions evolve over time, they change. Change is the one thing in life that is inevitable, besides death (Taxes can be worked around http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ). I don't know my Middle Eastern history that well, but in the past wasn't Islam an honorable, decent religion?

Well, perhaps in the past it was. Perhaps it still is, I don't really know. But like I said, things change. Perhaps Islam has changed from an honorable religion gradually to one accepting of violence against those who are not believers. Maybe I'm wrong. But take for example the evolution of mainstream Christianity. It to began as an honorable religion, promoting unity, harmony and selflessness. However, that changed, as all things do. The Crusades. The higher-up Cathlics doing everything in Latin which no one understood in the Middle Ages just to keep people in the dark. The collection of money from members of the religion. The Catholic Churches is immensely rich...comes from ripping off the church-goers for millenia.

Now I'm not attacking either Islam or Christianity. Well maybe I am being critical. But I think everything I've said is accurate to the best of my knowledge, so I hope nothing I've said is overly offensive.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Don't get me wrong, but sometimes I wish a large enough group of people here in the US would get bat**** angry over things much like our eastern friends. Not to the point of killing people or destroying property, but more to the point of telling our government, private business, and so on that we don't like being treated unfairly or being ripped off. Image if all the people in the US went bat**** bad over the Enron, MCI, Tyco, collapses? Or when the Government takes private property and gives it to a developer who then makes millions. If that is not a reason to get bat**** angery, then I don't know what is.

Our friends from the east might be onto something here.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Yes, the people burning buildings and killing people are mindless [censored] idiots, but they DO NOT REPRESENT ISLAM AS A WHOLE. Islam is a peaceful religion. There are individuals within it who happen to be psychopathic ****wipes but that means nothing. You have to remember Islam has a much flatter, less heirarcichal structure than christianity. No-one represents Islam in the same way the Pope represents Catholocism, so any head-up-his-arse tosspot with a headful of other people's martyrdom can speak up and be heard. The more moderate ones speak up too, it's just that "hey, let's all be nice to one-another" doesn't grab the headlines in the same way "KILL ALL THE INFIDELS! SEND THEM BACK TO HELL!" does.

To a certain extent the fault lies with the media. Quite apart from the fact that certain media interests are more than a little influenced by certain political groups who might find that the demonisation of a particular religious persuasions could possibly go some way toward justifying certain less-than-friendly and politically-sensitive actions taken toward those groups in the recent past (and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this latest development turned out to be a deliberate attempt to antagonise the muslim world in order to more easily demonise it), the plain fact of the matter is that hatred, conflict and intolerance sell newspapers/ news TV a lot better than moderation and calm. And it works on both sides of the fence I'm sure- I don't doubt that the Islamic media have had a part in whipping up the storm, and shame on them.

Look at us from Muslim eyes. Imagine how their news reports told the stories of the last four years (or how their how their history books tell the last four HUNDRED years) and try to see the picture that must be presented to them. If we want them to believe that the abuses of abu-graib, guantanamo bay and the like are mere abberations in an the behaviour of otherwise well-behaved forces, we have to accept that the actions of the minority of muslims in this case do not reflect the majority. If we want them to believe in our humanity, we must first ackowledge theirs.

Anyway, if you want to read the words of a moderate muslim calling for calm and understanding, please go back and read the link I posted upthread. If you don't want to read it, then tough [censored] because I'm going to quote it, coz it seems clear to me that no-one bothered to read it before. Yay to the BBC for giving these words some airtime.

Remember, there are a zillion examples of Islam living comfortably and peacefully side-by-side with other religions and cultures in the east, the west and everywhere else. That is the norm. That is Islam.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

"(and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this latest development turned out to be a deliberate attempt to antagonise the muslim world in order to more easily demonise it)"

On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if it was an attempt on the part of tin-pot dictators to piss people off, in order to have an outside enemy to point at.

Notice, for example, that the cartoons were originally published in September..and that some of the cartoons circulating are fakes that look designed to be offensive.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by abda

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

If they got mad about some cartoons, then they should not watch South Park. Oh man did they ever rape Bin Laudin over the humilation coals.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I have good odds that the south park creators take this and run with it. It's not beyond them to put Muhamed in their show. That or they will have their "Jesus" character get pissed about a caricture of himself.