Caelum questions
 

Decided to try these guys, wanted to try out a magic centric race. I am wondering if I could get some advice on how to use their units properly.

What does your typical stack look like, as far as national troops are concerned. Just by looking at them, there seems to be two natural stack types as far as national troops are concerend. Ground pounders, and Pure Flyers.

I have tried both, and Wingless + Mammoths seem to work well, and have ok survivability. But any flyers seem to have really really short lifespans.

1) For Pure Flying stacks, what is the best configuration, deployment, and orders?

2) For arieal support in ground pounding armies, what is the best type and orders for them?

3) Do you guys use any of the flying melee units when Archers of any type are presant in the stack?

4) How many High Seraphs do you guys normally have in a indie combat stack, and a stack geared towards humans.

5) Beyond research, is there any use for the lower cost mages?

6) When things are running right, what does a normal casualty report look like? The reason I ask, is its quite common for any unit that actually gets hit (by either bows or swords) to either break, or at the very least suffer massive casualties.

7) Is it nessisary to have Storm Generals trailing behind to quickly round up routers and get them back to the front? I have had to stall several times to reform.

Re: Caelum questions
 

i'm no expert, but i had a thing for caelum for a while, so i'll give you my two cents:

1) i like to put then on the sides with orders to hold and attack rear/archers

2) i have no idea what you're asking here.

3) absolutely. i also count on half of my flying units dying in most battles, though, so i just use them as special forces for taking out enemy archers or commanders, sort of like the same way i use eagle warriors as mictlan.

4) most indies i take with just wingless/mammoths and one or maybe two high seraphs. against humans, as many as i can afford to pull from research. they have great evocation spells, and the more false horrors you can spam, the better.

5) some will argue with me, but i say no. i usually only hire the more expensive ones as caelum.

6) when fighting indies, i usually have no losses on anything but heavy cavalry, knights, longbowmen, dark vines, that sort of thing. i also just use a gazillion archers (always the 9 resource ones, i've found)....and they plow through most armies and make them route before they get to you. then you have the mammoths there just in case they do get to you, set to hold and attack.

7) i have found it is often a good idea, especially for recruiting the "special forces" flying melee units i was talking about before. i use them expecting them to all die in a battle, but then i just have one guy running around picking up the runners who did survive.


edit: re-reading your questions, i think i answered number 2 with my number 1, and my real answer to your number 1 is....using only flying troops is generally a bad idea. at least, i can't figure out how to do it without mass death ensuing (assuming you don't have lots and lots of mages amongsto those fliers)

Re: Caelum questions
 

as an addition...when i was playing caelum last, i found instead of the wingless/mammoth thing, i was using the blue sacred guys (their name escapes me) with w w9a4 bless, and they made an awfully good meatwall for my archers when taking indies. late game, though, and especially when trying to fight other real people, i found that i wish i hadn't spent so many points on a bless i was using just to make a meatwall for my early game.

(please excuse my excessive comments...i really did have a caelum obsession for a while)

Re: Caelum questions
 

The famous caelum false horror spam

Re: Caelum questions
 

I have found the most survivable way to script flying meleers is to have them guard commander. if they need to be on the front lines, then have a disposable commander amidst them for them to guard.

mind you the survivability is still pretty bad.

Re: Caelum questions
 

Caelum is a bit hard in the beginning as their troops are made out of thin paper so there is a bit of a critical mass effect going on but once you have a pile of them you can cast wind guide and they become pretty efficient.

1: 30+ caelum archers (I use the weak ones as the 9 resource type doesn't seem to have any more survivability) and as many seraphs as you can get. Archers on shoot closest pepper/block while mages false horror/lightning stuff.

2+3?: if you refer to flying melee types, screw em. They are weak in everyway and I have barely ever seen them do more than fly up to enemy, all miss, get poked back, flee and spread themselves alll over.

4: a couple and as many as possible. Seem to work very well in stacks of 10+

5: I never buy them so..

6: When running right it's 0% losses for me and 100% for them. If ground troops can get a significant body of soldiers in contact with my archer blocks it usually turns out ugly for me. My goal is to have 20+ false horrors a turn getting in the way of that happening.

7: Never had a game where it wasn't necessary to have secondary leaders running around picking up retreated troops and the 1-2 x-bow men various provinces make.

Rathar

Re: Caelum questions
 

would just like to remind everyone here that cb mod increases the fatigue of false horror so if your planning a prolonged battle try ghost wolves

Re: Caelum questions
 

false horrors have some benefits over wolves, I think you have to consider the battle, even in cb

Re: Caelum questions
 

flying and light fear are good and i use them alot but in bigger battles you should still have a few ghost wolf casters imo

Re: Caelum questions
 

For the flying stacks, these could be a mix of melee and archers, or pure archers and mages. For armies with ground units, you really intend for atleast some of them to get into melee. I was asking (although not clearly) is basically, do you normally take archers, or melee support.

Thanks for the tips guys, most of the armies I have played had very survivable units. It was a bit of a surprise to watch these guys get hit so bad.

Re: Caelum questions
 

the only time i use caelums melee units (not mammoths, i use them alot) are either when i desperately need to reach mages/archers or against a ton of ethereal undead (read SG ermor) but generally i stick with mammoths and archers (who often have wind guide and fire arrows from a pretender in large fights)

Re: Caelum questions
 

Another quick question..both mages have easy access to quickness. But they putter out once the script is done it seems. Do you guys still cast quickness without reinvig items?

Re: Caelum questions
 

depending on the mage and the equipment of the mage... quickness is one of the first spells I have him casting.

Re: Caelum questions
 

Usually. You get the nearly the same number of spells cast (minus the fatigue for quickness) but at twice the rate. Most of the time that is good.

Re: Caelum questions
 

I had a critical battle in my SP game, and wanted to see what different effects quickness had on the outcome. After all my orders were complete, I saved, quit, and backed up the directory (only way I figured out how to save a turn).

4 times, with 13 mages 20 light infantry and about 60 archers, this army was beaten by a TC army of 3 mages, 127 various units (most ranged) and 7 Celestial soldiers. All 4 battles each of my mages started with quickness. All were crushing defeats, losing most of my forces, and over half of my commanders..the ones still passed out.

I took quickness off this last time, and basically scripted the same spells just w/o quickness. This time I only lost 25 (most of the Caelum light infantry, and a few bowmen), and killed 72, all his CS and 4 commanders.

The CS in the first 4 battles plowed through screen, and nailed my archers. Most of the mages blew their wads before getting in optimal range, so by the time the CS hit my lines, every mage was over 100 fatigue. The last battle, they had atleast 2 turns of pretty high hit/miss ratio spells.

Without reinvig, or nature mage backup, quickness I think is a liability. I think summon scripts would work fine with quickness, as the more on the field at once, the better...but for most any script that relies on Prec...I think I am going to leave quickness out.

Re: Caelum questions
 

it very often is a liability, even for a lot of thugs. I rarely script quickness for mages; except for w1 mages casting frozen heart, or if perhaps I have a relief caster on hand.

Re: Caelum questions
 

Hmm, well I'm not sure the blame is quickness or positioning your mages out of range of their spells? Did you try reloading that saved game and putting your mages closer to the troops you are targeting. (Maybe have them cast air shield if you are worried about the ranged units?) Then again, quickness may not be the right choice.

Re: Caelum questions
 

Well, its pretty obvious that quickness loses most of its charm in long drawn out battles. The whole point of quickness is to end the battle much quicker in order to avoid reaching critical fatigue and losses. (That is, that's its purpose for mages. Thugs and SCs are a different story.)

Re: Caelum questions
 

Quickness is not only great for casting spells faster but if it's a losing battle... this spell will increase the chances of your mage surviving because it will be running faster off the battlefield and have +3 DEF.

Re: Caelum questions
 

He will also get his fatigue up much faster due to the doubled casting so he will, probably, be unconscious when the enemy reaches him.

Re: Caelum questions
 

That's not always true Daynarr...
With faster casting means also faster killing of opponents. It all depends what happens on the battlefield whether or not anyone survives. Since you never know when or if an army will retreat to say quickness is bad has no standing.

Re: Caelum questions
 

Well, its true its not always true, but thats what I was trying to tell you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Quckness may as well be the reason why your mage didn't survive just as much as it can be help to get away.
Generally I have yet to see some non-pretender like mage to get away and say: "It's only because of quickness". Of course, powerful mages and pretenders can benefit from it greatly for both combat, casting and 'tactical retreats' (running away http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif).

Re: Caelum questions
 

Usually that's the first spell my mage will cast if even one path of water magic. There's no certain way to ever be sure if a mage survived just because of quickness... but it does make them cast faster(better for offense), run faster(escape_bonus) and provides +3 DEF(avoid_melee). Thus there is definitely more good casting 6 spells in three rounds compared to 6 spells in 6 rounds. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Caelum questions
 

But in Caelums case, having your troops positioned forward is a liablity isn't it? I normally position a screen of single archers normally 2 deep so arrows and melee troops have to go through 2 lines of single units. Then archer blocks behind them, and mages to the very rear.

This gives maximum time for arrows and spells to rout the melee troops.

Even when in optimal range, with Aim and windguide cast, low prec spells still miss.

NTJedi, that wasn't the case in this battle. Caelums mages fly, and I position them at the very edge of the battlefield. The only possible way they could die by melee is:

1) They are passed out due to fatigue
2) Atleast one unit has its morale intact.

And the way I position them, #2 almost is impossible. Every single mage killed was over 100 fatigue. The second the army routes the mages are off the field. Quickness wouldn't help at all.

Re: Caelum questions
 

I find quickness only useful with relief.
Thunderstrike e.g. has 50- Fatigue. So if you have no relief your high seraph casts either quickness and 2x thunderstrike in 2 rounds or 2x thunderstrike.
If you script him with quickness he is then fatigued 2-3 more turns than otherwise. So without relief quickness is contraproductive for caelum at least.
And caelums mages fly away anyways normally so they rout as fast with and without quickness.

Re: Caelum questions
 

yes I meant mages in general not Caelum mages.

Re: Caelum questions
 

Casting spells, in general, is a good way to get your mages killed. Why keep them on the field for turn after turn when you can just retreat, and guarantee their survival?

As for myself, I prefer to base my tactics on making the other player retreat, and being able to get off twice as many spells in the first few rounds of combat ties nicely into this sort of approach.
On the one hand, you eliminate enemy troops and mages before they've a proper chance to retaliate. As any MoM player knows, first strikes are nothing to scoff at*.
On that same hand, your mages do pretty much all the damage they can within those selfsame rounds, so the enemy can't eliminate them before they do their damage. Which can be an edge when your foe's stocked up on archers, flankers, Magic Duelists, artillery spells and other mage-killers.
Still on that first hand, the first few rounds of a mostly-melee battle are the only chances you'll get to use low-precision, large-AoE spells like Sulfur Haze without risking your own troops.

But, on the other hand, this works best with precision-100 spells, or at least ones with a huge AoE in a target-rich environment. Your garden-variety quickened low-level fire mage will probably just end up exhausting himself before the enemy get within optimal range.


* Except in Civ IV, I suppose.

Re: Caelum questions
 

I would like to do that, but gathering everyone back together after a retreat is cumbersome, even with flying caelum (coordinated placing on the battlefield, assigning bodyguards and 'bodyuguarding' archers, etc) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
I really hope that there will be a difference between an orderly retreat and routing in Dom!!!

Furthermore, why is retreat limited to 5 rounds? The same is true for hold & attack, fire & flee, etc. It would be already enough to have a single global slider for each command for the whole nation, setting a value between 1 and 12 for each of those commands. Or maybe just allow this specific battlefield personalisation during pretender creation would be nice... :cry:

Am I off-topic yet? Sorry!

Re: Caelum questions
 

Well, that's a first time! Dom!!! is quite descriptive, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I think I'll start using that, if you don't mind...

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I personally hate it when I have to regroup my troops. It irks me to all hell when my main block of infantry goes bye bye and I have to spend a couple turns getting everyone back into place. I seriously don't think I could handle that strategy.

Plus...especially as caleum...if your mages are dying you've lost the battle.

Re: Caelum questions
 

I've thought having a rally command that brings in leadership% of unled troops from adjacent provinces would be good.