Dom II, feedback please
 

I have finished playing LOL and was pondering buying Dom II.
Or, perhaps, Civ 4. I just read this comment regarding Dom II in the LOL forum.
"Dom 2 is a completely different kind of strategy game. Dom 2 is a large scale, highly detailed strategy game, whereas Land of Legends is a small scale, highly refined strategy game.
The most important thing to know is that Dom 2 has awful single player - no campaign, and poor AI in skirmish. But if you like long multiplayer games, and have a few friends who also do, then it's a good buy."

Is the single player really that bad? If so, I guess I'd better get Civ 4.

Looking for feedback guys
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Single Player is not bad from my view... in fact it's better than the average TBS game.
Many people will play 4+ games and continously lose over and over... even a topic on the forum existed. The AI plays great with Ermor(large-armies)... yet does bad with Mictlan(candles weak).
I've had the game for over a year and I still do singleplayer as well as multiplayer. A few adjustments in the .map file and the average AI opponent becomes very deadly.
I recommend getting the game... or at least playing the free demo.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Thanks Cap. What adjustments do you recommend making?
Are they easy to make?
TY
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Yeah playing with a map that distributes forts across it would be helpful. You could also do use some mods that make things easier for the AI to cope with the complexity of dom2 (like a supply mod). Adding in CB 5.2 would also keep you, the human player, from profiting too much from some of the more well-known and vicious strategies. IMO, tho MP is where dom2 really shines.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Ironhawk,

Could you be more speciific about the mods to add and where to find them please?

Thanks
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Have you played the DOM_2 demo ? This will help you get a feel for the game... and it convinced me to buy the game.

Once I bought the game I played several maps until I felt knowledgeable about spells, units and nations. Depending on your tastes you'll find some nations more fun and effective. There's a good chance you'll lose the first half-dozen games. Eventually you'll discover AI weaknesses allowing you to win the majority of games.
At this stage you'll want to make the game more challenging by editing the .map file. The first and easiest change is by making them allies, but since you don't have the game yet this step is many months away.

The full game installs a Dominions\Docs directory which has a guide for editing the map file... the mapedit.pdf. Only make these changes once you feel comfortable winning and you're looking for a greater challenge against the AI.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Thanks NT. Your advice 'feels right'.
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

There are also some maps which can increase the solo-play experience. Ones which scatter extra surprises around, monsters, equipment. Also some which have the computer players as allies against you.

When you first start out I recommend setting the indepents strength to 5 or 6. The default of 3 will have the AI rushing you quickly

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

I´d wait for dom3. Since dom 2 is still being sold for fullprice, it doesn´t really make sense now to buy dom2 when dom 3 should be out in a couple of months.

The single player experience is probably better in civ 4, but you need a pretty good PC to enjoy it.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

and dominions has the best repley value of any games ive played (and i used to hate turn based games before this)

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

No, they lowered the price. And I would not count on dom3 coming out right away.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

yeah I wouldnt count on a few months for version 3

But I agree that its one of the best values around. Dom1 and Dom2 both lasted for years on my machines while I was loading and deleting the boxed/shelf stuff at a rate of about 1 a month

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Gin, CB 5.2 can be found in the modding forum. First post in the conceptual balance thread should have the mod. But really I'm not the right person to ask about how to increase the SP experience since I basically only use SP to test out strategies for MP. People like Gandalf have more experience with just SP.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

No, it's not that bad. There were good suggestion how to "help" AI a bit in the thread. Mostly, it's just that Dom2 really shines in multiplayer, so single player doesn't compare that favourably.

Do you actually *have* to choose between Dom2 and Civ4? You could get both, but if I'd have to choose my pick would definitely be Dom2. Dom2 lasted for me nearly 2 years, Civ4 - couple of months (it's ok, but there isn't that much depth there).

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

I think you worry too much about what mods to apply to make the game more demanding when you have not even played it yet.
Trust me - Dominions is not an easy game and you will certainly loose the first few games. It is true that there are certain combos which the AI can't handle very well, but until you find those (which might take quite some time) there is no need to mod anything.

By the way, once you get good enough with Dominions, you might whish to play with other humans instead of AI only, which is actually much more fun.


I hereby order you to download the demo! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Well, thanks so much for all the excellent input.
I DID buy the game and play thru the 27 page demo/tuturial.
I don't believe I've played a game this 'deep' before so I'm wondering if there is a good article or two to help me grasp the subtleties better. I feel somewhat intimidated by the menus and all the info...especially the magic system.

Thanks again
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

In the beginning, try a nation that has simple magic. As an example, Man has Nature and Air, and not much else.

Nature magic:
Nature has some interesting summon (Conjuration) spells. Vinemen are cheap, and Vine Ogres almost as viable. To achieve Nature 3 of the Vine Ogres, you will want a booster. Construction 4 allows any of your Nature 2 mages to build Thistle Mace, which gives them +1 Nature magic. Construction 2 allows you to build Vine Crown, which makes both summons more effective.
Summon Animals is quite expensive, and the animals aren't very good in battle. However, if your capital is forest, mountain and/or swamp, you have better chance of getting something useful. (Press 'i' to check province information).
Nature isn't very offensive path. It has good support spells though: e.g. Eagle Eyes at Alteration 1, Personal Regeneration and then Regeneration at Enchantment, and Relief at Enchantment 6. The few Nature spells that can be used offensively aren't very good besides Charm, which can sometimes get you even mages!

Air magic:
Air, on the other hand, is very offensive. All offensive Air spell go right through armor. This could kill your own units as well, if Air magic didn't increase the casting mage's precision and allow you to cast Aim. Sometimes the mages cast Aim at archers instead of themselves or fellow mages, which isn't nearly as ueful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
With Air, you should go for Evocation. Lightning Bolt is probably enough for you.
As for items, Flying Boots are very useful. Air boosters are hard to get to, but once you get one, you can build another as well. Bag of Winds and Winged Helmet need Air 3, which means a lucky Crone or your pretender.

If you go for stealthy forces, you can use Conjuration spell Call of the Wild and Call of the Winds to drop Werewolf and his pack wolves or a pretty useless flock of Black Hawks to a province. Wolves are stealthy, and Hawks might be able to catch enemy mages, or at least slow down archers. They attack in magic phase, before normal movement or battles, though.

Military:
As Man, Longbowmen are your most powerful national units. Use them with a screen of shielded troops to hold back the enemy (Hold&Attack) while your longbowmen are firing at them (2 groups set at Fire Closest and Fire Archer, or Fire Closest and Fire -). Try to find out how far bacl the Longbowmen can be set, that gives you many more turns of deadly arrows.

When you start to have money and resources and want to do special forces, you can go for Stealth:
Wardens of Avalon are stealthy, Monks are stealthy and can bless them, Druids are stealthy and can keep their morale up AND, as spies, Bards can tell you of the enemy defences; in addition, one of your mages is stealthy. If you find province defended by a Druid, you can recruit stealthy archers as well.
You could also go for Knights. Your Knights of Avalon are very powerful, because they heal their battle wounds (rejuvenation). This allows them to collect lots of experience without becoming too weakened. You can have small groups quite early, and use them to attack e.g. enemy archers. However, don't overdo it - a lone knight will die, and if you recruit them too early, you can't afford mages and archers.

Sample build:
You could take e.g. a Phoenix with Fire 4, Air 6, an 80-point Castle, Dominion 5 and e.g. 1 pick in Order, Production, Growth and Magic. This would give you bonus in research, extra money and resource, access to Air boosters once you research construction, and early spell support. Air 6 gives your Wardens weak Air Shield, Fire 4 gives them +2 attack.

Early game:
Buy Mothers of Avalon, with one Crone if you have the money. Research Evocation 1. This gets your Phoenix few useful spells.

Early on, just recruit Longbowmen. Avoid provinces that have crossbowmen, knights, longbowmen or heavy cavalry. Try to attack provinces under your dominion; if your Phoenix dies in positive dominion, his Immortality saves him.
Send a Mother to search all forest, waste, swamp and mountain provinces. Pay attention to scales. If a province has Death scale, it probably has a Death site. Forests have more Nature and Air sites. Mountains and Wastes also have more sites than plains. Farmlands have only few sites. If a Mother doesn't find any sites in Mountain or Waste, search with your pretender. If no sites are found in Forest, Waste, Mountain or Swamp, search with Crone or with Thaumaturgy 2 Auspex and Haruspex.

More on magic:
First, lets go for Evocation. 1 gives him Fire Darts and Fire Bold; just have him Cast Spells. 2 gives him Flare and Sulphur Haze. They are good spells, but more useful for Fire 6 Air 4 than Fire 4 Air 6 Phoenix. Evoc. 2 also has Vine Arrow for your mages, and Lightning Bolt. Evoc.
3 would have Fireball and 4 Thunder Strike, which are more useful for this Phoenix, but Evoc. 2 is fine in the beginning.
After Evoc. 2, research Conjuration 3. Recruit a Daughter to summon Vinemen (use 'm', monthly ritual) if you have found any nature sites or have conquered Forest provinces. After 2 you can Summon Animals, but remember that different animals come in different terrain. Conjuration 3 gives your Phoenix Phoenix Power, +1 Fire magic for the end of the battle. It allows him to cast more Fire spells before fatique makes him unconscious (at 100).
You could also summon Vine Ogres, but don't. They are good, but not worth summoning with a Crone. Instead, research Construction. At 2, make your Vineman-summoning Daughter a Vine Crown. At 4, give her a Thistle Mace and change her to summon Vine Ogres.
They you can go for higher Evocation, then maybe for more Construction, or Thaumaturgy 2 (search for sites without leaving a lab!) or Conjuration (Maggots, Howl, Lamias, Lamia Queens).

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Thank you so much for taking the time to give such a detailed response, Endo. I appreciate all this info.
I will try what you suggest and get back to you with any questions that arise.
Best
Gin

PS-BTW, my login says I have a private message but when I go to the link there appears to be no pm. Any ideas?

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

I just sent you a PM. So now you should have at least one private message. Hope that helps.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Gandalf,
Where do I set the indy strength?
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

OK Endo. In trying your advice a few questions arose:

1-Where do I do the '1 pick in Order, Production, Growth and Magic"?
2-When creating a new game, which nations should I include?

Sorry, I'm a total newbie at this.

Thanks
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

I´d just play around for a while, get crushed by the AI and then ask specific questions.

As for your questions:

1) he referred to the scales you choose when you pick a new god. You can set them from +3 to -3.

2) I would include all nations except ermor and maybe Caelum. Ermor is too strong vs other AIs and Caelum is very annoying with seeking arrows and call of the wilds.

indy strength means independent strength. The higher you set it during game creation the more independents will garrison the neutral provinces.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Thanks Turin. Just where does one set indy str. and the scales. I saw no scales when I picked my god, Phoenix. I just had choices within magic, dominion etc.
Thanks again
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Well the scales are in the dominions screen during god creation. You pick your scales by umm clicking on the scales there.

Independent strength gets set under game settings. It´s the second line under number of provinces. It´s above special site frequency.

You get to the game settings screen after you chose the map.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Thanks Turin.
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Do keyword searches for the various nations that you try. I am pretty sure every race has some sort of discussion thread.

There are numerous docs that have been made by fans, after you play through a couple games I would take a look at them as they are great resources but will mean nothing unless you have some sort of grasp on the general concepts.

Also, try Ulm with a rainbow mage (Rainbow means a mage with multiple paths, these are excellent at site searching). I still think they are the best for illustrating the basic concepts of the game. They also make for great crafters, which will give you insite on the magic item creation system.

Once you have a handle on that, move to a race with a bless strategy. Ulm doesn't have any sacred troops. If you have a pretender with atleast 4 picks in any path of magic, you can pass on special abilites to your sacred troops. At certain points, you get certain abilities. For instance Fire 9 (very popular) gives your sacred troops flaming weapons (+8AP dmg). Fire 8 however would only get you +4 attack.

Also the Dominions I guides are still semi-relavent and are a good read, and actually explain the basic mechanics pretty well.

The forum is a awesome resource, and you can go back multiple years and pull up information. This has also been one of the most helpful communties I have ever been a part of.

The Dom II Library http://www.freewebs.com/dominions2/ is a great resource, and also has links to other sites (dominions-x..has the correct link here, unlike the illwinter site). The Illwinter site also has some good resources and has mod links as well.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

And of course when you get old and jaded with the game you can go to Dominions2.com for the really wild stuff. But thats something like after a year or two at least of playing the game. This is one of the longest-lived games on my machine

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Thanks for the recent replies OG and Gandalf. I will try your advice. BTW, I did install the mod people recommended. (CB 5.2)
Does that affect your advice at all? Is it OK to learn the game with this mod active? Or, should I disable it.....
Best
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Hi Gin.
If you have good self-confidence you could also do a "shock"-approach to learn the game.
Come to the dominions-irc channel:
Especially on weekends there should always be a few ppl around.
Then ask QM to play a few 1on1s with you. This way you will learn a lot of advanced tactics really quickly.
Recently quite a few new players joined the channel too, so maybe you can also get a few newbie blitzes going and then ask the veterans that are around for tips.

You really need a good self-confidence and high frustration toleration though because most likely you will lose all your first 50 or so blitzes. But the blitzes are the quickest way nontheless to learn to play dominions competetive.
If you play mainly SP and a few long-term-MP-games even after 1 or 2 years you probably won't be a true dominions veteran but rather have barely scratched the surface.

QM and Arch are so good that they almost always beat "semi-veterans" like Truper, Arralen or myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
So if you have masochistic tendencies or at least a really good self-confidence come to the dominions channel asap http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Hahaha...Boron.
I'll pass on the masochism act! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I'd rather have SOME idea what is going on before playing live humans who have a deep understanding of the game.
This is a really big leap from HOMM3 and AOW2, my favorite turn-based games.
Gin

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

This game has great replay value. I've had this game for maybe a year or so and i've played a couple multiplayer games and got my *** kicked both times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. But i've been playing alot of single player.

The one thing about this game is that it has a high learning curve.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

All the CB mod does is change stats. It doesn't alter the mechanics of the game (atleast not from what I have noticed). If you have absolutley no plan to play MP, disable it. If you do however, eventually plan to play some multi, play with it on as it won't do anything but get you used to the changes.

For now the most important thing is to get a handle on the mechanics. After a couple play throughs, things will start to click. Then new questions will pop up, and then those will start to click. Its a process with this game.

I have every single game in both of the series you mentioned, and they don't have anything on this game. I have done a TON of reading both when I got this game in 04, and since I decided to load it up again a couple months ago, and I still feel like I barley scratched the surface. Once you get past the mechanics phase, you will enter into the strategy phase and then things get exciting.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Hehe Homm3 and especially AOW2 SM have been my favourite turn based games before i discovered Dominions 2 too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
Aow2 SM i still play occasionally.

Try practicing with SCs though in SP. I underestimated them till i joined my first MP game. SCs are rather unique in Dominions, in AOW2 your heros can get strong too but not as strong as a Dominions SC.
For beginning best would be probably practicing around with a VQ and then you can try equipped Demons or Air Queens.

Re: Dom II, feedback please
 

Whether to learn with CB or not depends on whether or not most multiplayer games use CB. It would do no good to base your strategy on it if its not part of those games.

If you only play solo then its a flip of the coin whether or not to use mods. But personally, the only mods I use are the ones that give me a new race to play against. And I rarely use those

Gandalf Parker