Combat in SEV
 

First I gotta say I can't believe they have a post icon that looks just like me! I had to use it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Anyway, from everything I've datamined through on interviews and posts it appears that combat in SEV will be real-time only. This disappoints me. There were two main features that attracted me to the Space Empires franchise: the ability to mod the game and turn-based tactical combat. I hate real-time strategy games BECAUSE of the combat, trying to micro-manage multiple units at once in real-time is a pain, even if you can pause the game to give orders or slow speed to a crawl. I love real-time combat for first-person type games or simulators where I only need to control one unit, but not for my strategy games.

This means that for multiplayer games you will be forced to use the "strategic" computer-resolutions for combat, which, quite frankly, sucks. No matter how I attempt to script AI, it always comes down to the superior force winning, when it should be the tactics of the commanders. I can defeat superior forces in tactical combat by outmaneuvering them and outsmarting them. The AI always tends to get backed into a corner or outflanked when I let it handle strategical and I lose units I could have saved. There are limitations on what are possible with formations/strategies that can only be corrected with on-the-fly orders (seeing an opportunity and seizing it).

The reasons for me to purchase this game have all but vanished. Sure, there are some nice new features to the game (3D systems, hard-points, government, etc) but the features that have me STILL playing SEIV are gone. Shrapnel may not notice the few customers who decide not to buy SEV and they will attract some new players with the real-time combat, but they will lose alot of the hardcore chess-style strategy players. Some might buy the game anyway, but I doubt it will have the longevity the other SE games have for those like myself. It remains to be seen how much of a margin of their consumer base this style of player holds and undoubtedly they will find out when they go to market SEVI if it does not contain turn-based combat, as those who might have purchased SEV anyway to try it out will have decided whether or not they like it by then.

I wish there would at least be an option to make tactical combat turn-based (and no, pause and slow features do NOT cut it, there has to be a way for tactical combat to be played in multiplayer through Hotseat and PBEM - the two primary ways I play multiplayer) otherwise I'll just have to hold up hope for SEVI or perhaps another SF game that DOES implement turn-based tactical combat. I might play the demo, but I refuse to endorse removal of this feature so I will never purchase the game without it.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

My understanding is that it won't be player-controlled realtime like in RTS games, it will simply be a 3D rendering of an AI-controlled battle. In other words, tactical combat is out, very pretty strategic combat is in. However I could be wrong on this.

The good news is that AI has not only been improved for SE5, but there will be the option to write your own AI and plug it into the game See note 1. We have a lot of coder-type people playing this game, and I'm sure many of them are just itching to start tinkering with an SE AI's brains, so if the modability extends to the decision-making code used in combat (and I wouldn't be surprised if it did) then be prepared for some fantastic battles.

Oh, and Shrapnel aren't publishing SE5. Some other publisher (I forget the name) is doing it.

Long live Malfador. Long live SE. Long live Shrapnel. Long live that other publisher.

1 again, this is a semi-substantiated rumour based on interviews, chat sessions and so on; features subject to change, interest rates can go down as well as up, please read the Terms and Conditions, blah blah blah...

Re: Combat in SEV
 

I'm really not getting why pausing isn't sufficient for you. Pause should work quite well enough for hotseat play, and no version of SE has ever had tactical combat for any other multiplayer mode. If you use the automatic pause-every-x-seconds feature which I believe has been officially confirmed to be a definite inclusion for SEV combat, the only real difference between that and turn-based is that you can't exploit the sequential movement for truly absurd tactics that really shouldn't be possible. As for tactical combat in PBEM, are you CRAZY? That would take forever to play just a single turn whenever combat happened, especially in large battles.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

That other publisher is Strategy First.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

This all depends on your definition of "tactical" and "strategic" combat, but please remember that Dogscoff is not a beta tester and may have some information wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I love subtlety. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Combat in SEV
 

That's only because you aren't playing against other humans...

Meat >> AI

I know how hard it is to give up the control (I was a tactical combat junkie for three or four years!).
But I can assure you that once you get the hang of things you can do quite a lot.
One of the hard things to learn is that you need to adjust your ship designs to fit the strategies almost as much as the strategies to fit the design. When it all comes together, though, it is amazing.

Amazing x300 ships, and x5000 fighters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/...an1_turn04.jpg

Re: Combat in SEV
 

And the reason you are such a tactical god, is because the AI isnt that smart in SEIV. So really the only fair way to ever do combat in SEIV, and probably SEV is via strategic, and allow the AI to play out the combat, while you sit by and cringe in horror at the possibly outcome...

Kana

Re: Combat in SEV
 

There have been muliple references to combat being pauseable, which is sort of pointless if the player can't control it.

Also, one of the best TBS games around, Combat Mission, has real-time combat.

Yes, you read that correctly. It stays paused, players issue orders, and then the game runs for a set period of time with no player ordering allowed. It works quite well.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

No, I was referring to playing other humans, SJ. Among the friends with which I play, I have the best grasp of tactics. I tend to win most of the time. The fun for them usually consists of trying to find ways to spread my resources thin by teaming up against me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As for PBEM tactical combat, it has been a while since I've used PBEM, mainly I use hotseat. Apparently it was another game that had turn-based tactical combat that worked in PBEM games... MoO2, maybe? I know that also had PBW support. Maybe I am getting that confused and remembering networking with my brother and a few friends to play then saving the game and basically doing a few turns a night over the course of several months....

Like I said, I will give the demo a shot and see what it's like when I have access to it. I might just be over-reacting and might actually LIKE the way SEV does it, but I just am miffed at losing truly turn-based tactical combat. There are times I prefer turn-based to simultaneous for a change of pace. Feels more like a computerized board game then.

Since you mentioned strategies/designs, I am curious... is there a way to make the AI use smaller ship models instead of just sending waves of massive fleets composed entirely of its largest ship around? I like to use a mix of vessel and never truly abandon any ship size (escorts make perfect boarding shuttles). I also tend to keep a defensive fleet in every system I control (patrolling in case of cloaked ships lurking about) and all my critical planets well defended by units (obsolete models get shipped off to front lines for combat disposal and to "unimportant" colonies for SOME protection).

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Like Douglas mentioned, there is a stepped-pause feature. This means you can halt the combat every X seconds (i.e. 1, 2, 4, 5 etc) automatically. This can be used to create essentially the same situation as traditional SE:IV tactical combat with the exception (and improvement to fairness IMO) that the ships will execute their orders and movement at the same time.

Alternatively, you may even choose to control a single ship in the combat (pretending you're its captain) while the combat runs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Go Captain Kwok, GO! Blow them out of the stars! Your our HERO! OH NO LOOK OUT! Ohhhhhhh they got him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Combat in SEV
 

You, my friend, are insane. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif To tactically fight that battle would take a very very long time!

Re: Combat in SEV
 

SE V's modifiable AI feature has tremendous potential for improving game play, assuming there are a few players both skilled and dedicated enough to take advantage of it, and generous enough to share their improvements with the rest of us clueless sods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Combat in SEV
 

You sir, are very very fortunate.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

That is not true. GalCiv2 is the one without any tactical combat. You will be able to play tactical combat in SP SE5, just as in SE4.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Which begs the question of whether you can play the tactical combat in MP games if playing via TCP/IP...I certainly hope so! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Combat in SEV
 

I'd love to see a way of doing tactical battles in Simultaneous Movement mode, since I prefer it over the normal mode. This would be for single-player, obviously.

The way MoO3 did it is nice. When you press end turn, all the orders are executed and a list of battles this turn appears. You can then choose to let the AI take control, or play them out yourself. This way Sim Move mode wouldn't mean that you'd have to sacrifice tactical combat.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

The outcome of a battle can affect the outcome of future battles. Even whether the battle happens at all.

For example, a battle on day one can determine if the star goes nova on day 6, and whether the 500 ship fleet escapes from the system to attack a homeworld in the next system over on day 30.

Stopping the game in the middle of turn processing is not a good idea.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Well, it's listing all potential battles that could happen this turn(even if one of those battles requires your fleet to win 5 other battles first); the outcome of the earlier battle in the queue will then decide if the next battle should be fought, if <whatever action> should be executed, how many ships you have left for the next battle, etc.

It's quite an ingenius system they developed, really, and although SE features a far more advanced space-map system, it's likely it could adopt a similar technique. It wont happen, of course, but it'd be a nice future feature/option.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Although it takes a setup, you could see what is on the other side of a WP without going there, Right?

If you fight a fleet or planet on this side of the WP it is typical that one ship's engines or control will be damaged but the ship still survive. This will slow the fleet down so you will not jump through the WP. Yet you will still see a battle possibility on your chart. Or if you don't, you know the WP is not guarded.

Hmmmmm. Sneaky

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Well, MoO3 don't have warp-points. There'd be an easy solution for that 'problem' though; Just prevent the player from seeing the potential battles until they become actual battles.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

That sounds like bull****.
I think you are playing the AI.
There is no shame in that. I never multiplay myself. I don't like playing sneaky humans and their crazy exploits. It takes me out of character, the evil ruler of the galaxy.
Yeah, me too I'm a megalomaniac.
Did I mention that I like to win?

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Easy with words like "bull****". Why does it sounds like he is playing the AI? Anyway, please keep it civil. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Combat in SEV
 

WTF!!? LOL

Do you have a detector?

/me imagines Mephisto in a control room at Shrapnel... the claxon sounds and he spins his rotating wheeled deskchair over toward the control panel... he finds the flashing red lamp that leads him to the offending thread...

LMAO
TT

Re: Combat in SEV
 

When first struggling to learn SEIV, there was a satisfaction in having my lone frigate equipped only with a couple of DUC’s and a combat sensor rip apart 3 large Eee crusier fleets using tactical combat (Fire, move out of range of the AI, end turn, repeat). Although it was fun watching that one ship reach “legendary” experience, I have found it more enjoyable to spread out so you have the economy to afford the large fleet actions that SE plays well.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Back when I still played single player, I had tons of fun as a psychic race fighting the Cue Cappa. 5 ships (me) vs 30 (Cue Cappa) ending with me having 35 undamaged ships http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif. And then there was the time I fought off an invasion using only ships that I had Crew Insurrected from the invading empire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif. Nowadays, though, I generally overwhelm my enemies on PBW with both superior tech and superior numbers.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Turin, am I the Evil Overlord or what? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Combat in SEV
 

In a word - YES.
One should know that no one should mess with the might Mephisto!

Re: Combat in SEV
 

reminds me of dungeon keeper! =O

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Hei
Speaking about the combat... is it really 3D? I do recall watching an intro-film with upcoming SE5 features, and combat as one of them. What dissapointed me- I saw the ships moving in circles so they could use their weapons that are built in on both sides of the ship. Hey, I saw that before - in Pirates Of the Carribbean (sp sry). SE5 ships move the same like ships in POFC! Ouch. Why don't spaceships use 3rd dimmenssion? I think rotating along its own axis is much more cost efficient rather than making a big circle.
For this reason a new type of engines could be introduced- that provide rotating speed.
If 3rd dimmension in SE5 will be like it is in Starfury- sry, that's not 3D.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Malfador has never claimed SE5 to have a 3D grid, just 3D rendering.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

With regard to weapons on opposite sides of the ship, you could get the same effect as 3D rotation by just allowing all weapons to engage at once, regardless of facing.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Homeworld and Homeworld2 both have 3d combat. Neither of them got as far in the market as many other RTS's. Many people just can't handle 3d combat.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Trying to handle a 3D UI with frantic combat going on and controlling heaps of ships at the same time is pretty tough. Homeworld does about as good a job as I've seen, but it's still way too frantic for me, and of course it has all the RTS bull**** of researching and resource gathering and building new ships all at the same time as combat is going on, as if the constant action spread all over 3D space were not enough. Anathema to me. Good tactical 3D is I think possible in theory, but a whole lot more work just to tell WTF is going on, for developers, for the AI, for players... so I think 2D is a very respectable decision.

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Never heard of the pilots saying: "A sitting duck is a dead duck."
It's best to be on the move, that way you're more difficult to hit. Go ahead and try it with a helicopter in any given flight sim. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Combat in SEV
 

I was wondering how range is calculated, and the size of the combat area in SEV? I was going over some material for my SFB mod, and was wondering if SEV uses some arbitrary LOS measurement (KM?, AU?) or if its still based on squares or hexes. Also the size of the combat area would affect the maximum range that we could apply to weapons, and the effects of movement of the ships. Especially if the retreat option is included.

Kana

Re: Combat in SEV
 

Supposedly the combat area is infinite, combat is Starfury style with floating-point distances, and there is retreat, so presumably ships need to reach a certain distance from all enemies to retreat, or issue a "warp out" order which takes some time to execute (ala MOO2)...

Re: Combat in SEV
 

An infinte area sounds a bit big...but the retreat option being a certain distance out of direct combat contact is a very good idea, and 'realistic' enough to fit with many forms of sci-fi combat genres...Yet again I can't wait till SEV comes out...