Riflemen have too much ammo
 

I noticed that most riflemen in the game have 100 ammo points for their assault rifles. This means that they can keep on firing through the whole game without ever having to rearm. This is ridiculous- the Soviet rifleman carried three magazines, but in the game can keep firing for an hour straight! Most Mujahideen/Northern Alliance/third world militia type units go to war with ten or fifteen bullets in their gun. Why does the game give infantry soo much ammunition?

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Maybe because it is a "game" that you play for fun?

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Soviet riflemen actually had 4 magazines, 1 in the weapon and 3 spares. Times 30 is 120 rounds. The ammo load reflects single round fire for rifle types. If it is supposed to reflect bursts, I guess the ammo load should indeed be reduced.

Narwan

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

It may be a game, but we try to make it fairly realistic- that's one of the big things about the entire Steel Panthers series. And giving riflemen hours of ammunition is a gross corruption of reality.

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

This is an OOB issue, nothing to do with the game engine.

You can make your own OOBs with realistic infantry ammo capacities.

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

From the Mobhack manual, and in reference to what the ammo load out is: "HE - number of HE engagement opportunities this weapon has". I don't know if, for the main inf rifle, this means single bullets or a 3-5 bullet short (semi automatic) burst . Keep in mind that in actual combat situations many units in many armies have some spare ammo around and that "playability" maybe also a factor (as junk2drive suggested). In any case ammo loadout is an adjustable parameter so you can easily recreate "low ammo situations".

BTW most USA, USMC and Russia inf squads have 80-90 ammo points. Lighter inf maybe about 50-60.

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Hoplitis is right about infantry having more ammmo available than the bare orbats suggest at first sight. Not because regulations allow you to carry only 4 magazines plus 32 to 56 spare rounds in sealed pouches for or total weight of less than 7.45lb http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif or such, that you rifleman will not take the initiative to lug on some more if it can save your life on the field.
Plus, IRL, mechanized/motorized units tend to store large amounts of ammo (if not actual spare weapons) in their carriers. This is particularly true of AT and ATGM teams some of which have been criticized for carrying incredibly high loadouts in game.
Since the game doesn't allow for stored spare ammo for single units (which would be quite a waste of time IMHO), that farther load has to be reflected in the infantry unit's loadout itself. QED. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

If each infantryman gets 5 shots per turn on his rifle, let's assume that each HE unit represents 1/5th of what an infantrymen fires in one turn (3 minutes). Maybe a 3-round burst. 80 ammo points equals 400 rounds per rifle, so I guess you might be right about Western troops that fire ammo conservatively and have plenty of resupply. But this does not hold true for third world (such as Soviet) troops, which typically offload whole magazines on full automatic, and are trained to dismount from their vehicle and charge toward the enemy positions. Not only would they run out of ammo quickly, but they wouldn't return to their APC to rearm. So these troops would have serious problems with ammo supply.

As for playability, I don't know what you guys think, but I like realism above all else.

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Mustang, I personally would not include the Soviet army in the ranks of third world armies. Conscripts, yes. But trained conscripts. Soviet infantry, even reserves were (and are) taught fire discipline and ammo conservation. An AK-47 is most effective firing single aimed shots and the selector lever does have a repetition setting. The beauty of the game is that if you don't like it you can change it yourself. If you want to use a custom OOB in PBEM than just agree with your opponent on the parameters.

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

While it is true my former classmate, now studying the Military University of Medicine, was issued three magasines for his vz.58 rifle during the training (and as he volunteered to be scout the others have asked him to leave two mags behind as he will anyway be killed before he can use them in MILES training - well, he wasn't;o)) OTOH I recall reading a Vietnam veteran's account where he stated he carried about 600 rounds of 5.56mm ammo plus a 50-rounf belt for M-60. Comat loads tend to be higher than the peacetime ones IMHO.

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

If a move represents abot 1.5 minutes, then assuming an hour of fighting that would be 40 moves solid continuous firing.

Now, assuming a full 6 shot opportunities per move were taken, then that would be 6*40=240 Fire opportunities.

Infantry typically have 60 to 90 shot opportunities, so will be "dry" after about a half game hour of solid all-out firing, which is not unrealistic.

http://www.anzacday.org.au/history/vietnam/longtan.html
- The Australians made contact at 4.08pm and were calling for ammo resupply at 5.0pm.

( http://members.tripod.com/sitrep1/cav05b.htm gives another account of Long Tan, from the cavalry's point of view.)

As many have pointed out - should you think the loads are unrealistic, you have Mobhack or the scenario editor at your disposal.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

The manual says a turn is 3 minutes and you say it is 1.5. Which one is it?

I don't like creating a new OOB because it creates PBEM problems and messes with scenarios that other people designed. Too much of a hassle. I would consider it in this case, but really the reason I posted this thread has more to do with wondering "why" it is the way it is rather than suggesting that the game be changed.

It seems to me that, if each fire opportunity represents a three-round burst, the average infantryman would be carrying 720 rounds. I can't believe someone could carry that much, and I know that the Soviet army for one does not carry that much. But it seems like they somehow manage.

Cameronious, are you sure about the Soviet ammo conservation thing? I looked on Google and found nothing. According to their doctrine, they're told to run toward the enemy and fire from the hip. They don't have much use for their burst selectors as they recieve very little training- they often fire only 15 shots per year.

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Player 1 turn : 1,5min

Player 2 turn : 1,5min

Whole game turn : 3min

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

(note the word "roughly").

so a typical rifle section with 90 FOPS is still 60/2*6 = 180/90 = a half an hour's solid firing.


Andy

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Mustang, No I am not sure. I just find it hard to believe that anyone would train a soldier to fire from the hip when in the same amount of time you can train single aimed shots. You don't actually have to be a good shot. Anyway I think you are hung up on the three round burst. Think of it as sometimes a single shot, sometimes a double-tap and rarely a three round burst. FYI Modern Canadian rifleman Full battle load is 5x30rd mags + 1 bandoleer of 100rds= 250rds. LMGs carry 2or3 200rd belts a piece, more if it's available. If mechanized, there will be at least another full battle load per man kept in the vehicle. I think the game is pretty close to real ammo loadouts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Mobhack referred to continuous firing which I assume includes OP firing during enemy turn.

So you have:
own turn: 6 FOPS
enemy turn: 6 FOPS (as OP fire)
game turn: 12 FOPS total

If available FOPS are 90 then you have 90/12 = 7.5 game turns firing constantly at maximum rate.

If a game turn is 2 min that is 15 min battle time.

If a game turn is 3 min then it is ~23 min battle time.

If I haven't done anything completely stupid, let's agree on the numbers and go on with the discussion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

hoplitis, your numbers look pretty good to me. 15-23 minutes of a rapid rate firefight seems a realistic amount of time to go through all your ammo. If it ain't broke...why are we still talking about it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Cameronious, that's what the run-of-the-mill Motor Rifle Troops did in Afghanistan. Soviet soldiers travel light and only carry four magazines, one in the gun and three with them storage. Like I said before they run toward the enemy, outdistancing whatever extra ammo was in their APCs. Running out of ammo is a real possibility for them because they don't fire in three-round bursts or carry tons of extra magazines like Western soldiers do. If you still don't believe me I'm sure I can find something on the internet. This is from Stephen Zaloga's book Red Thrust.

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

I did some numbers on the German Kar98K rifle; and the german "official" loadout of 90 rounds and the 1.5 minutes per player turn:

1.5 minutes = 90 seconds / 6 Actions a turn = 15 seconds per action.

Official Ammo Load 90 rounds
+50% Ammo Load (Simulates people carrying extra ammo) 135 rounds
Rate of Fire (effective) for the Weapon 10 RPM (Kar 98K is 15 RPM, but I doubt most people could fire that fast)
Rate of Fire in Rounds Per Second for the Weapon 0.17 RPS
Ammunition Expended per 15 second Action 2.5 rounds
Shots for Weapon (uses 50% bonus) 54 shots

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Also, we could actually use the shots per weapon to help simulate trained vs non trained troops.

If you give someone with no training with weapons a StG-44 or AK-47 (e.g. a Volkssturm conscript) he'll spray and pray (see african militas), and he'll waste ammunition a lot faster for no appreciable military effect, while a trained person will fire short controlled bursts, having the same effect, but not using as much ammunition.

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Hm, I did some more work on tank MG loadouts using the same formula, but slightly modified

Official Ammo Load 6000 rounds (based on M4 Sherman official loadout)
+50% Ammo Load (Simulates people carrying extra ammo) 9000 rounds
Weapons of Vehicle using Same Calibre (tank MGs) 3
Ammo Load Per Weapon 3000 rounds
Rate of Fire (effective) for the Weapon 300 RPM
Rate of Fire in Rounds Per Second for the Weapon 5 RPS
Ammunition Expended per Action 75 rounds
Shots for Weapon 120 shots

So yeah, the tank MG loadouts are actually quite accurate! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

And the points cost between a section with 90 rounds and one with say 60 - will probably be nil, as there is too little ammo value to make any difference.

Ammo loads are what they are, and are quite good enough for game purposes.

Andy

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

I can speak from experience that they typical US soldier tends to carry far more ammo than his basic load. Basic load for the M-4/M16 is 210 rounds - 7 30 round magaizines. It is not unusual to see a rifleman carrying nearly double that amount. When the US Army changed it's load bearing equipment from the old LCE pistol belt & harness to the the newer load bearing vest, many soldiers kept the pistol belt mounted ammo pouches allowing them to carry a total of 13 30 round magazines (normally only loaded with 28 rounds each). More ammo is carried "loose" in rucksacks/buttpacks or assault packs. A SAW gunner might carry between 500-800 rounds of ammo (a 100-200 round belt in the gun, and 2-3 additional 200 round belts) with additional 200 round belts doled out among his squad mates. Additional 100 belts of 7.62 for the M60/M240, 60mm mortar rounds, Dragon/Javilen rounds, and 40mm grenades are also frequently spread out among the platoon. On top of that add M-72/AT-4's, Frags, Smoke Grenades, Claymores, C-4 and other demo and you've got a veritbale walking arsenal. =) Typical combat loads can approach 100lbs - even more for the poor bastards carrying crew served weapons (MMGs, mortars, AT weapons). Ideally such heavy loads are for the "approach" march, and will be dropped at an objective rally point, and necessities (ammo, water, specific mission essential gear) will be transfered to assault packs/buttpacks/LBVs for the attack/raid/patrol etc. Mechie types just leave the excess ammo & snivel gear in the track.

Adrian

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

Have you thought about using the ammo loads to represent the poor fire-discipline you find with Al-Quaeda and basic African militas? Just wondering...

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

I remember a discussion about this on the old Yahoo SPMBT forum. The non-infantrymen were amazed at the loads we muckfeet carried. The ammo loads for regular soldiers in the game seem correct to me.

troopie

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

In a exercise I remember a machine gunner carrying over 2000 rounds himself. Mobility was lacking though, but once the action started, we found it very inconvienient not to have a MG that had the option for a quick barrel change.

Re: Riflemen have too much ammo
 

MGs usually carry very heavy ammo loads, and do most of the killing. What we're talking about is regular infantry rifles (and especially SMGs), whose low ammo usually limited their utility in combat. MGs cause far more casualties than rifles, either automatic or semiautomatic, in real life, and provide the real firepower.

But basically what I'm saying is that although Western soldiers and soldiers with semiautomatic and single-shot rifles usually consume little ammo, I've seen a lot of instances in the game where an SMG unit or a unit that (in real life) has poor fire discipline (like the 3rd-world armies mentioned before) will keep firing for half an hour or more. Not that it has a decisive effect on gameplay, just food for thought.