How do real life armies clear cities?
 

At present, my main infantry-clearing tactic is to buy a bunch of jeeps and run them through the enemy defences until they get shot at and reveal the position of the enemy. Some people say that, if possible, you should take a heavy HEAT-proof tank (like the Abrams) through a city, but this is a bad idea for two reasons. One, it dosen't draw fire because the enemy isn't going to bother to shoot at it. Two, it can't spot infantry very well at all, and will often end up in a hex adjacent to an enemy infantry squad, not spot it, then get close assaulted the next turn. And three, they're just soo damn expensive that you can't loose a single one, and driving through close terrain you will eventually take some kind of flank shot from an RPG.

Of course, my current "suicide jeep" tactics aren't very realistic, because few actual soldiers would be willing to drive their vehicles into certain death. Does anyone here know what armies will usually do in a urban situation? An infantry-only advance, heavy artillery bombardments, a combination of those, or what?

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

Mustang,
Urban areas are infantry terrain. Use of artillery is also essential. There are 2 schools of thought on the use of artillery. 1. Use light artillery to avoid creating rubble and making the area more easily defensable and harder for you to move through quickly. 2. Use heavy artillery to create more cover for your own infantry in the rubble and to have a maximum effect on the enemy who is already under cover. I'm a heavy artillery proponent.
There is going to be lots of smoke so use a spotter with TI if possible. Blast your target area for 1-2 turns before you move in. Move your infantry up in trucks, APCs or helos as close as you dare to de-bus. Sweep through the objective. Follow up Tanks and IFVs are handy for support fire. Scout helos can be handy for drawing fire but usually won't last long. It is slow going, probably only advancing 1 hex per turn. Expect heavy casualties. Ideally the defenders will be so supressed by your creeping barrage that you can walk right up to them without being fired on and let em have it.
Even better is to not clear the urban area. If possible isolate it with smoke or arty, and bypass it.
Now get back to work on your maps of Tobruk. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

Big armies most likely first isolate the area with fast mech forces (enemy cannot retreat/receive support) and then bring in the troops that will take the urban area. Block by block/house by house movement supported by tanks/IFVs and lots of smoke and artillery fired at the defenders. Smaller and more heavily (than normally) armed inf teams then rush the houses and clear them using lots of explosives etc. For support fuel-air-explosives are excellent (Chechnya) and russians have a long tradition in using SPA for fire-support in built up areas to destroy houses. Little by little advance, if the enemy is dug-in well, then more arty, smoke, tank gun fire and so on. The key seems to be to have SUPERIOR firepower against small, isolated enemy positions then sweep/infiltrate using any route possible.

Movement is really slow, but if you rush, then casualties are generally really high (Groznyi 95!)...

Zip

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

You can read the manuals online. Took about 5 seconds to find them with google:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6453/doctrinea.html

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

One building a ta time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Seriously, for the game it is good to realise that the faster you move your infantry the easier they'll be spotted and shot at. So move them slowly.
Also, the more suppression a unit has the less likely it'll spot another unit and open fire on it.
Putting these two together it means that you'll have to put suppressing fire on an area and then move in slowly (1 hex at a time usually) with infantry.
The problem with using artillery is that you have to target it some distance from your own units or risk hitting friendlies. The further you keep your infantry out of harms way the more distance they'll have to cross which means either taking several turns (by which time the enemy had shrugged of most of the suppression) or move faster. Which will likely result in higher casualties through OP fire.
One solution is to use light artillery (as light as you can get it and a lot of it) and keep your infantry as close behind it as you dare. The light artillery should restrict friendly casualties to a minimum while still inflicting suppression on the enemy. You will receive some suppression yourself too. Keep your force well organised so there are enough rally options for your troops (use two platoons with the platoon leaders just behind (up to 2 hexes) the other aquads (just out of light arty range hopefully). Put the company commander just behind them, in range of all units. That should give you give you enough rally capacity to unpin any of your own units. Keep the third platoon well back in fast movers to relieve whichever of the other two platoons becomes combat ineffective first.

Another way is to use scout type units to move slowly through the buildings. Even an unsuppressed enemy will often fail spot a scout moving next to it if the scout moves one hex at a time. Much depends on experience (of both units) and the facing of the enemey unit.
Once you've spotted an enemy unit, it is tempting to fire at it with the unseen scouts. Don't. Pull them back immediately and start plotting the heavy firepower on the position. This works best if you've spotted more than one enemy squad already and have a good idea where his defense is concentrated. Once they've been pounded with heavy firepower, rush them. Either with infnatry on foot or in APC's. Craters and rubble will be a serious hindrance for you so here too you may want to elect lighter calibres (but more of them). Use lots's of MMG and HMG units. Fire them at hexes adjacent to the enemy. Splash effect and the occasional drift into his hex will cause suppression too.

You will take serious casualties. That's almost unavoidable in urban combat.

From a more startegic viewpoint, advance from different angles. It'll increase the ods of the enemy unit not facing your way and not spotting your squad or team as it closes in on them.
You can also use helicopters to overfly enemy positions and get the enemy squads looking over their shoulder at the choppers and not at the buidling in front of them where your troops are just creeping into.

Narwan

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

1) Don't forget the bulldozers!
2) Try to find out how the Israelis do it!

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

Something we don't have to do in the game, but armies have to do in reality, is consider the political implications of an action. If the city is an enemy city, and there's a war on (WW2 is an excellent example of this) you can bomb and shell the bejasus out of it. If it's one of yours, you are reluctant to do so, 1: because you don't want to alienate the PBs and 2: you want to use it when you've recaptured it. In a COIN situation you are also reluctant to use maximum force. P!ssing off the PBs adds strength to the terrs.

You go slowly, house by house and block by block, clearing a building floor by floor. Everyone packs spare grenades, bunker bombs and wp. The people tiffies have a lot of work to do. Expect high casualties on both sides.

troopie

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

I already posted a sticky pointing the USA manuals. See the sticky "I need tactical help".


cheers
Andy

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

Thanks for all the information. It's interesting to hear that in real life an advance against an urban enemy force is almost impossible to do without a major advantage in numbers and firepower. Of course, this isn't true in SPBMT, probably due to the AI (most of the urban combat scenarios last only an hour and expect you to defeat an enemy larger than your own!).

I wonder, what are your tactics, how do they differ from reality, and why?

I already mentioned my light vehicle scouting idea. Now that someone told me you can use infantry scouts for the same purpose without getting them shot at, I'll try that. The problem is when you're in a kind of quasi-urban area, like a clearing in a dense city, where you're facing a dug-in enemy who has clear and probably flanking fields of fire on you. It's tough because it's hard to spot where fire is coming from, and you can't send scouts to them because they'd have to cross the kill zone. Basically, I buy several jeeps and some tanks, send the jeeps out until they get shot at, smoke off any ATGMs or tank threats and take out the enemy with long-range tank fire. Works well, except in terrain that is too close. In very close terrain, SMG or engineer infantry are best because of the short range combat takes place at.

I've heard the Israeli bulldozer idea before. Might work in real life, but in MBT your dozer is going to get immobilized going through all those buildings.

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

In real urban warfare, more and more armies are avoiding the streets and moving between buildings - I was watching CNN and saw how US forces in Iraq will cut through walls in order to avoid firefights in the street.

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

Well I dont know about any other army but I imagine the Soviet Union would have just used heavy bombers and lots of artilary to
a) create cover
b) demoralise
c) create fear
d) supress

They would then just roll through with tanks APCs and Infantry.

Apart from anything else I dont think the Commies would have been to bothered about collateral damage

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

We'll never really know will we, collateral damage and the fear of creating it really is a post-Cold War phenomenon. During the Cold War, the idea of buring the village to save it from the dreaded communists won out in debates over how many innocents got caught in the way.

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

I was intimating how I was trained to do it. I've done kraals in reality, but never had to do a really built up area.

troopie

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

Sounds like what the book would be calling for indeed... at least until, say, mid-90s!

They tried that in Grozny, and I think we all know the result it had at the moment!

Urban assault in a Cold-War-Gone-Hot setting s an interesting thought, but in that case, given the highly mechanized character of any assaulting force (on both sides), the strategy of avoiding and encircling cities would have prevailed IMHO.
Dunno how much the Soviet high command was aware of the western defensive tactics though.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

Is there a good Groznyi scenario out there?
I poked through the stuff that comes with the download and did not see any.

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

There should be one ("Death of the Maikop Brigade" or something like that )somewhere, but it was not compatible with never versions of SPMBT, and caused the game to crash.

Re: How do real life armies clear cities?
 

Israel doctrine for urban combat rely on tanks heavily. I remeber I have read that infantry should provide 20 meters "safe area" around tank.

In the second Chechen war, most works seems was done by rekon groups and artillery. Rekons located the enemy and called artillery fire. After that line infantry occupied area with little resistance. Dyring Grozyi assault (second chechen war) city was encircled and TOS-1 ("Buratino") FAE (thermobaric) missiles launchers were used en masse on it. Remnants of unburned explosive in the air from fuel-air rokets caused rumors about chemical weapon.