Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up?
 

I've heard peeps complain that once big ships and big mounts are available, little ships are no more. What kinds of things can be done to make little ships competitive and worth while? I have a cpl ideas, but am no modder so I dont know if it's feasable.

Could smaller ship classes be given a vehiclesize ability that allows for lesser maintenance costs?

Perhaps mounts can be revised so as to not allow the big ships so much of a weapon hardware advantage?

Perhaps more of a natural ecm bonus.

Mb make a manuevering thrusters component only for smaller ships that add extra combat movement. Mb smaller ships can be equipped with more engines?

What other ideas are there?

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

All those ideas are feasable, unless I'm highly mistaken. Look in the data files - Something like 'abilities.txt'. It's been a while since I've poked around them.

1) Yep, one of the abilities that can be used on ships is a maintanence reduction.

2) Certainly. All data files are text files; you'd just have to change some text files. Can't quite remember the name - 'somethingmounts.txt'.

3) Little ships already have this; you'd just have to increase it. 'vehiclesize.txt', I think.

4a) Yep. Just make it too large to use, then make a mount for the smaller ships by setting the minimum and maximum size of the ship the mount can be used with to the range of smaller ships you want to use it with.

4b) Yep. There's a default setting for number of engines that can be put on a hull.

You could also give them a to-hit bonus.

Hello, and welcome to the forum. Cheese?

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

You would have to mod them to be useful.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Hi atrocities. I LUV your shipsets and mods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif Big fan here. I've DLed a bunch of your work... Very cool stuff. I've modded for SFC Orion Pirates and I know its TIME consuming... wtg.

Like what bonus? And thx for the info!

I'm slowly grasping the intricacies of modding this stuff. Rollo gave me some points tonight. Nice guy. Very knowledgeable.

I think I'll throw together some of these ideas and see where they lead. Anyone else have anymore ideas? Any suggestions would be very helpful.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Thank you. Glad you are enjoying the sets. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


A lot of people have considered adding bonuses to smaller ships such as abilities added to the hull sizes like more manuverablity, built in ECM or armor values. Added movement ability. Added combat movement ability... assuming that it does not interfer with stock engine component.

Lower maintenance costs.. on the flip side make larger ships way more expensive.

Give smaller hulls the ability to hit offense, with the defense hit bonus... Less likely to be hit.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

I like the system I made for gritecon.

Using required mounts and maintenance modifiers on the hulls, the build cost is made to rise FASTER than the size of the hull. Maintenance is made to rise SLOWER, taking into account the higher cost of the components.

In Gritecon, build cost is equal to size cubed.
So an 800kt ship takes the same amount of time to build as eight 400kt ships.
However, that 800kt ship costs about the same as a single 400kt ship.

Big ships are thusly great to have around, but they're really hard to make.
Overall, you've gotta find a balance. If you are at peace, or winning with relatively few losses, then you build bigger ships so that you can increase your tonnage-in-the field without paying more maintenance. If you start losing, then you can build smaller ships, and get more tonnage per turn to throw into the meat grinder.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

I think the following things could easily be done in a balanced fashion that would really make keeping around smaller class vessels something you'd really consider doing. Plus is all this stuff can be done relatively quickly and easily all in the VehicleSize.txt making it quick and painless and something the AI wont have trouble taking advantage of.

Found these Abilities:

Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Combat To Hit Offense Plus

Found this Ability:

Extra Movement Generation (dont think I'd go here... Maybe allow use of more engines instead so it's an advantage that'd have to be paid for by structure.)

Found this ability:

Combat Movement

Found this ability:

Modified Maintenance Cost

Probably the last thing to do... to make it really balanced... would be to sift thru all the mounts in your mod and adjust them so that bigger ships dont get all these glorious percentage mount advantages over the littler hulls. I think that'd complete the package.

I also see what you're saying, Suicide Junkie, but I'd probably not want to go there. I surely wouldnt want to wait that long to get a bigger ship. I dont think there's enouigh payoff in it in the short term... or the long term for that matter. Especially if you do what I'm suggesting to the vehiclesize and mounts.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Make sure to skim through SEIV Modding 101. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Ok, here's how I did it. Looks good on paper, but unsure if it all works.

Name := Escort
Short Name := Escort
Description :=
Code := ES
Primary Bitmap Name := Escort
Alternate Bitmap Name := Escort
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 150
Cost Minerals := 150
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 50%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 50% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 50
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 50%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Nimble size allows for excellent maneuverability. +2 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 2
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 8
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Corvette
Short Name := Corvette
Description :=
Code := CT
Primary Bitmap Name := Corvette
Alternate Bitmap Name := Frigate
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 200
Cost Minerals := 200
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 40%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 40
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 40% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 40
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 40%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -40
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Nimble size allows for excellent maneuverability. +2 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 2
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 7
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Frigate
Short Name := Frigate
Description :=
Code := FG
Primary Bitmap Name := Frigate
Alternate Bitmap Name := Frigate
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 250
Cost Minerals := 250
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 30%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 30
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Smaller size makes ship 30% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 30
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 30%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -30
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Small size allows for good maneuverability. +1 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 1
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Destroyer
Short Name := Destroyer
Description :=
Code := DS
Primary Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Alternate Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 300
Cost Minerals := 300
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 3
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 25%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 25
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 25% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 25
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 25%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -25
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Small size allows for good maneuverability. +1 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 1
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Heavy Destroyer
Short Name := Heavy Destroyer
Description :=
Code := DH
Primary Bitmap Name := DestroyerHeavy
Alternate Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 350
Cost Minerals := 350
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 4
Number of Abilities := 4
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 20%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 20
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 20% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 20
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Small crew and simple efficient design decrease the maintenance cost by 25%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -25
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Combat Movement
Ability 4 Descr := Small size allows for good maneuverability. +1 to Combat Movement.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 1
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Light Cruiser
Short Name := Light Cruiser
Description :=
Code := LC
Primary Bitmap Name := LightCruiser
Alternate Bitmap Name := LightCruiser
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 400
Cost Minerals := 400
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Maneuverability increases chance to hit enemy targets in combat by 15%.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 15
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 2 Descr := Small size makes ship 15% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 15
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Efficient ship design and small crew decrease maintenance costs by 20%.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -20
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 6
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Cruiser
Short Name := Cruiser
Description :=
Code := CR
Primary Bitmap Name := Cruiser
Alternate Bitmap Name := Cruiser
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 500
Cost Minerals := 500
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Number of Abilities := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 2
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 2
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 5
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Skimming, I miss something?

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

If i mod these alterations in the game, would the stock (or TDM) AI work ok? Or they would be at a severe disvantage from the player (assuming a medium bonus).

My skill level: I can beat AIs with low bonus 90% of the time (never make any teatries with anyone, but don´t select AIs x humans), at medium bonus i can beat the ais 50% of the time... and at high bonus i can beat the ais only 10% of the time. Normally i play with medium bonus.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Hmm...You might have too much bonus there.

Dunno. You can always test them in-game.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

The stock AI assumes that the biggest hull is always the best.
Making any of the changes suggested in this thread would falsify that assumption, and the AI would go down hard.

It would be entirely possible to change the AI files so that it will build a decent mix of smaller ships, however.

---

Combining the gritecon with the other things suggested would be much too far, indeed.
Gritecon's changes stand on their own to make a nice utility curve in which all sizes can be useful depending on the situation.

Long term, you can't support much of a fleet with small ships. Short term, you can't build much of a fleet with big ships.
The shorter the term you are considering, the smaller the ships you will build.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

How about a new race tech group that make small ships better?

Can wepon mounts be limited to only smaller ships? Or would you have to create a special ship clase for the race tech?

Other posable race tech groups: Fighters and/or Missile races.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

I disagree. By the time AI start getting to the nifty weapons, ship contruction has just got up to around the CL stage at which point some nice designs will come out and hopefully live a while to make an impact. Casualties aside, the decreased maintenance costs will enable these ships to hang for a long time. The bonuses these ships have will enable them to be somewhat competitive later on and that's the point.

Bottom line is balance. Aside from QNP propulsion or gritCons idea, this is a step in the right direction that's more in line with staying stock.

Does the AI retrofit ships?

This should be the case already... I guess since no one has addressed the big ship little ship issue... we've left the AI set to bigger is better... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Quite simply, the AI by default will always build only the biggest.

If biggest is not best, then the human players will trounce them even more than they already do.

Now, as I also said, it is possible to mod the AI to build smaller ships too, but that's a serious bit of rolling up your sleeves and digging in with your favorite text editor.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

What about the AI that seem to never get into bigger ships? At that point, they can stay competitive... I'm not penalizing AI by making larger ships suck, smaller ships are just not so out of date...

So, what are some tips for modding the AI to build a few of the smaller ships?

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

You can easily limit the largest ship size a race will build in AI_Design_Creation.txt.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

The main problem is that you can only really make about 4 or 5 ship types for the AI to use as combat ships. This makes it very difficult to have the AI build a variety of sizes through an entire game in addition to having it design ships with different roles (i.e. point defense, missile ship, etc).

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

How does the AI determine what the biggest ship available to it is? Tonnage or Tech level? I was thinking that instead of altering the smaller ships, it might be an idea to add in (extra) improved versions of those ships. For example, once you research cruisers, you also get 'advanced escorts'. The AI won't use them though, if it goes for highest tonnage.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

It goes by the largest allowed size of the last valid entry for a given design type.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

I might make a Small Ship Masters racial trait for the Masters Mod, and I was wondering what advantages might be good to add to advanced small ship hulls.

faster?
cheaper?
stealthy?
+defense?

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

I'd go with faster, extra defense and extra abilities.

Example:

Name := Escort
Short Name := Escort
Description :=
Code := ES
Primary Bitmap Name := Escort
Alternate Bitmap Name := Escort
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 150
Cost Minerals := 150
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 5
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Small size makes ship 60% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 60
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Advanced hull design incorporates a phased energy matix.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 100
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Advanced targeting system increases chance of hitting enemies.
Ability 3 Val 1 := 25
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 4 Descr := Advanced hull design is resistant to damage.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 30
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Extra Movement Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Lightweight composites enable faster movement.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 7
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 3
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Unless I've misunderstood how to apply some/all of these abilities, this would result in an 'Advanced Escort' with a 60% defense bonus, 100 phased shields, 25% attack bonus, immune to weapons doing less than 30 damage, and a movement of 10 using (a max of) 3 engines (assuming ion engines).

Probably over-powered but just an example after all.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Hey Star Shadow, thats a great idea! Later on down the tech tree for ship contruction we could have advanced hulls come out. That's be very cool if we restrict like the Dreads and Juggernoughts. Have it Battleships and on down...

Then again... as suicide junkie said, the AI would build BB's and that'd mean human players would only reap the benefits of adv hulls... Hrmmm

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Make it a multi-player only mod and add stuff the AI can't do.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

I'm currently playing the Imperium Verus Mod, and it made Solar sails only work for 600Kt (Frigates in the mod) sized ships. You also can't have a Solar Sail with any other engine. The top of the line Solar Sail gives movement of 8, using only 1 supply unit per movement. The other ships use QNP engine system, though their speeds can get up and past 10 per turn they won't have the range.

So in this system the FGs are still nice ships late in the game.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Well...it would be nice if the AI could use the advanced small hulls, but even if it doesn't, the idea (of advanced small hulls) is still good. After all, the point is to make the small hulls competitive against larger hulls, not to make them better than large hulls.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

I had another idea, Starshadow. Advanced hulls could essentially be worked to where ship contruction tech can go higher and higher. Advanced hulls could sport advanced mounts. Kinda like going from Star Trek's The Motion Picture era to The Next Generation if you get my meaning.

Like narf poit chez BOOM said, I'd make an excellent MP mod, since SJ says i'd be hard to get the AI to do it. I think pretty soon I'm gonna start looking at the AI files. I've figured out all the components and mounts and am working on the techareas. Easily moddable game so for. I like it! Love it!

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

How?

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

All entries have two fields for min and max size of the design class.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

If you want to make smaller ships more practicle, give them the ALWAYS HITS ability.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

That sounds like a really dangerous proposition...

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

An easy way to make small ships more effective is to employ a QNP scheme, modify the large mounts so they don't give such an overwhelming advantage in terms of damage/kT and lastly make some balanced offense/defense modifiers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Depending on how you'd set up a mod, it would not be much of a problem to make the AI design different size ships or better versions of early hulls.
I'd be easy to make 3 ships-of-the-line, say, one destroyer class, one cruise class and one battleship class and get a mix of these ships.

You can restrict the sizes of each class in AI_designcreation.txt and use different design type (Attack Ship, Kamikaze Attack ship, and Boarding Ship) for each size class. You can then control the build ratio of the these designs in the AI_Construction_Vehicles.txt.

For more then 3 ship classes, it gets a bit more complicated, but it's also do-able.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

One question I often ask myself, though, when discussing this topic. If bigger isn't better, why reserch higher levels of ship construction?

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

I think the idea here is that players want both types to be viable together for the duration of a game.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

It's also somewhat more realistic to have fleets that aren't all composed of your largest hull, in my opinion at least.

I was thinking, most of a ships cost comes from it's components/weapons and only a small fraction from the hull. So a small mount that reduced weapon cost as well as size/damage/etc makes sense to me, so I came up with:

Long Name := Small Ship Mount
Short Name := Small Mount
Description := Smaller sized weapon mount which decreases weapon size by 2 times. Requires a vehicle size of 400kT or less. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons.
Code := S
Cost Percent := 25
Tonnage Percent := 50
Tonnage Structure Percent := 50
Damage Percent := 75
Supply Percent := 50
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 150
Vehicle Size Maximum := 400
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Ship
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 5

I also revised the advanced small hulls a bit.

Name := Advanced Escort
Short Name := Adv. Escort
Description :=
Code := AES
Primary Bitmap Name := Escort
Alternate Bitmap Name := Escort
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 150
Cost Minerals := 150
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 6
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Small size makes ship 60% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 60
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Advanced hull design incorporates a phased energy matix.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 100
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Advanced targeting system increases chance of hitting enemies by 50%
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 4 Descr := Advanced hull design is resistant to damage.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 30
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Extra Movement Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Lightweight composites enable faster movement.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 8
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Supply Storage
Ability 6 Descr := Energized hull functions as extra supply storage.
Ability 6 Val 1 := 1000
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 2
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Advanced Frigate
Short Name := Adv. Frigate
Description :=
Code := AFG
Primary Bitmap Name := Frigate
Alternate Bitmap Name := Frigate
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 200
Cost Minerals := 200
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 6
Number of Abilities := 6
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Small size makes ship 50% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Advanced hull design incorporates a phased energy matix.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 150
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Advanced targeting system increases chance of hitting enemies by 50%
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 4 Descr := Advanced hull design is resistant to damage.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 50
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Extra Movement Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Lightweight composites enable faster movement.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 8
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Supply Storage
Ability 6 Descr := Energized hull functions as extra supply storage.
Ability 6 Val 1 := 1500
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 2
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

Name := Advanced Destroyer
Short Name := Adv. Destroyer
Description :=
Code := ADS
Primary Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Alternate Bitmap Name := Destroyer
Vehicle Type := Ship
Tonnage := 300
Cost Minerals := 300
Cost Organics := 0
Cost Radioactives := 0
Engines Per Move := 1
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 1 := 7
Number of Abilities := 6
Ability 1 Type := Combat To Hit Defense Plus
Ability 1 Descr := Small size makes ship 50% harder to hit in combat.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 50
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Phased Shield Generation
Ability 2 Descr := Advanced hull design incorporates a phased energy matix.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 200
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Combat To Hit Offense Plus
Ability 3 Descr := Advanced targeting system increases chance of hitting enemies by 50%
Ability 3 Val 1 := 50
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Ability 4 Type := Emissive Armor
Ability 4 Descr := Advanced hull design is resistant to damage.
Ability 4 Val 1 := 70
Ability 4 Val 2 := 0
Ability 5 Type := Extra Movement Generation
Ability 5 Descr := Lightweight composites enable faster movement.
Ability 5 Val 1 := 6
Ability 5 Val 2 := 0
Ability 6 Type := Supply Storage
Ability 6 Descr := Energized hull functions as extra supply storage.
Ability 6 Val 1 := 2000
Ability 6 Val 2 := 0
Requirement Must Have Bridge := True
Requirement Can Have Aux Con := True
Requirement Min Life Support := 1
Requirement Min Crew Quarters := 1
Requirement Uses Engines := True
Requirement Max Engines := 3
Requirement Pct Fighter Bays := 0
Requirement Pct Colony Mods := 0
Requirement Pct Cargo := 0

I'm just not sure that they are well balanced though, I haven't had time to do much testing. I have the advanced escort appearing when the cruiser does. The advanced frigate is availible with the battle cruiser and the advanced detroyer with the battleship. They aren't really meant to be able to go 1-on-1 with their larger counterparts.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

I like the idea of advanced smaller hulls, but can we get the AI to build them?

Mb if we had a generic template tutorial on just this specific thing, I;d tackle it.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

yes, you can. See my earlier post. Decide on 3 shipsizes and limit the size for each class.

Well, if it was a generic tutorial it wouldn't be specific and vice versa, now would it? =)

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Hrmmm... Rollo, 1st things 1st. My SEIV enjoyment is on hold till devnull updates out. I cant seem to find another mod thats to my liking. I gotta have it! I like all the ideas youve come up with. Only thing I think thats weak is the tech tree. Checked out Eclipse mod and the techareas are nuts. Far too many for me to chew on, but there are a few interesting branches that devnull could take advantage of to help the basic tech advancement seem less stock and 'been there done that'.

Among the divergent branches of techs that spread things out a bit and offer more depth, I especially liked the Mount tech areas that allow advancement of weapons thru mounts using research. VERY cool. Shouldnt be hard to adopt it w/o altering the AI. If the AI had the basic mounts already there, all the other stuff for the players would have to be researched. In order to use it they'd have to spend research for it. That way the AI wouldnt have to be told to research anything new. Just a thought. I guess its a fine line to ride. How close to stock do you want to stay yet offer something new and fun?



Ok, modding the AI. I think I could make this all happen if I knew how it works. Have to roll my sleeves up and get in there.

By default, if the AI only builds three types of ships (are we talking warships here or are these 3 ships supposed to do everything for the empire?) if I set one to be a specific class, will the other two by default choose the latest and greatest hull size?

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Because bigger is better - for some things, but not for all things.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Yeah, that's the key. The SE IV ship design system doesn't take scale into account so 'bigger' turns out to be better in every way when it shouldn't be.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Surely the balancing is in the technology costs. If I've spent X hundred thousand researching big hulls my opponent will have used the research to get better guns therefore fight is primitive big ship vs advanced small ships?

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

exactly, noone is arguing why APB XII is better then APB V.

Now mind you, I am being a bit provocative here and in my earlier statement. Just like to point out that Ship Con is a tech like any else, and higher levels should bring distinctive advantages.
And while I do realize that the stock SE4 mount system does give a huge advantage to larger ships, I'd be careful to overbalance ship hulls.

In fact the DevnullMod Gold version that I am currently working on (1.80, unreleased at the date of this post) adresses this very thing of big ships and gave them all a defense minus. Battleship are now 20% easier to hit, Dreadnoughts 30%. In the future I may even tone down the stock mounts that DNM Gold still uses.

Within reason I think a better balance between ships is good, but I'd prefer just making the gaps smaller, instead of making LC just as viable as BB hulls.

Now, if a mod made all hulls available from start, that'd be a whole different issue.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

What would be a good system is where you start with several sizes of ships, each with strengths and weaknesses, and ship construction improves all of them. Newer ships should be better, but they do not have to be unilaterally bigger.

The problem with the APB comparison is that APBs have alternatives. You can research torpedos, MBs, PPBs, etc. But with ships, there is only a single tech area. It is entirely linear and boring by comparison.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Hrmmm. This is getting interesting...

I like the idea of basic hulls up front. FF, DD, CL, CA and BB hulls. Now as a control method to start with, I'd have the hulls themselves spaced far enough apart with cost so it'd be more expensive to build and maintain larger hulls at this point.

Now as you research ship contruction... Advanced hulls become available. You get built in bonuses to hit to defense and to movement as example. They are also cheaper to maintain, and may use mounts.

As ship contruction advances, these advanced hulls get better and better and may use better mounts.

Damn I like this idea!

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

Ok let me break this down a tad...

We want Ship Contructionn to be more interesting and move away from largest hull is always better. Using the below method, the AI, and players for that matter, will have much more control on what will appear at later design stages and not every player or race will end up fielding a DN in the final stages of ship contruction.

Let's start a mod called Dizzy's mod, as an example, and begin with some basic hull types.

Ship Contruction 1
- Escort
- Corvette
- Destroyer
- Cruiser
- Escort Carrier

Ship Contruction 2
- Frigate
- Heavy Destroyer
- Heavy Cruiser
- Light Carrier

Ship Contruction 3
- Light Cruiser
- Battle Cruiser
- Battleship
- Carrier
- Tech Area: Base Ships and Worldships
- Teach Area: Advanced Hulls
- Tech Area: Advanced Carriers

Ship Contruction 4
- Dreadnought
- Hvy Carrier

Ship Contruction 5
- Hvy Dreadnought
- Massive Carrier

Ship Contruction 6
- Juggernaught
- Tech Area: Advanced mounts



At ship contruction lvl 3, the AI will now have the opportunity to be programmed to continue with ship contruction tech toward Juggernought class and advanced mount tech or to branch off at this point into other tech area, Carriers, Base ships and worldships or Advanced hulls.

Let me touch off on the importance of the 3x new tech area branches:


Tech Area: Advanced hulls. New hull classes come out with built in features like bonuses to defense and offense, decreased maintenance and purchasing costs and other abilities. These new advanced hulls would have access to new advanced mounts as well, (adv mounts just increase the range, damage, accuracy and such of weapons a bit over standard mounts). Subsequent Ship Contruction techs will reveal new hull classes in addition to the Advanced types. (modders note idea: use 1 ton increments over standard hulls to create the new advanced hulls for AI and players)

Tech Area: Advanced Carriers
- New hulls of previous carriers, but with advanced features built in. Unique or improved carrier components, and the most important of all, Fighter Bay Mounts. Think of the Battlestar Galactica with its retractable hangar bays. A carrier mount would allow increased storage for fighters, just like Galactica styled hangar bays! This tech if chosen by the AI, then this race wont be like all the rest of the AI you're used to seeing all in the biggest baddest ship hull. A lot of variety possibility here...

Tech Area: Base ships and worldships
- Self explanatory. Players or AI branching off here would go straight from Battleship tech into researching the big boy ships.


At ship contruction lvl 6, Advanced Mounts become avaialbe. These will enable all regular class types to be fitted with advanced mounts, not just Advanced hulls. However, the advanced mounts arnt going to make up for the the advantages advanced hull types have over standard hulls.


As you can see, having these tech areas branch off like the do can setup the AI to research and build in a very unique way from how they usually go about it. The end result will be a much richer play enviornment, one that has more variety, depth and fun. Boring is one thing it wont any longer be.

Thanks for reading my idea. I know it was long, hopefully it was worth it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

You might want to thin those out a bit, or at least be very careful with your organization in the vehicletypes.txt

You can't obsolete hull sizes, so it is going to get cluttered very fast.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

That's easily enouhg fixed.

You can use a space before a regular hull type name and a dash or asterik before an Advanced ship. That'd easily allow you to visually identify the hull types. Or something like that. But agreed, if its not done right, there'd be too long a list.

Re: Big ship supremacy... Can little ships keep up
 

I think what SJ means is that the list is going to get very cluttered when design a ship, since hulls cannot be obsoleted.
In your intial layout you already have at least 20 hulls, plus tech that will modify those hulls. Each level of advanced hulls will act as factor to the hull number. So depending on many levels you plan, you can easily come up with 60-100 hulls.
That's a long list to scroll though and find the right one.

Someone wiser then me has said something to this extent once:
When make a mod:
- Plan carefully.
- Start small.
- Keep your focus.

With this in mind, I'd cut down that list somethng like this:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Ship Contruction 1
- Corvette
- Light Cruiser
- Escort Carrier

Ship Contruction 2
- Frigate
- Cruiser
- Light Carrier

Ship Contruction 3
- Destroyer
- Battle Cruiser
- Carrier
- Tech Area: Base Ships and Worldships
- Tech Area: Advanced Hulls
- Tech Area: Advanced Carriers, - Hvy Carrier, - Massive Carrier


Ship Contruction 4
- Heavy Destroyer
- Battleship
- Dreadnought

Ship Contruction 5
- Hvy Dreadnought/Juggernaught
- Tech Area: Advanced mounts
</pre><hr />
Each level of early Ship Con will give you a small and a big hull and a carrier. After level 3 you can branch off. If you continue with Ship Con, you get a 3rd class of hull: Dreadnoughts (huge). I'd also possibly move the better carrier hulls to advanced carriers. And cut level 6 for Ship Con altogether (Hvy Dreadnought=Juggernaught).
There, still pretty big, but much more focussed.
Just my 2c, of course.