Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Right now it looks like the following:
-Information is more quickly accessable
-Somewhat improved graphics
-Few more nations
-Few more spells, rituals and times
-Few more "improvements" (features)
-Balancing
-Little less micromanagement

But still I don't feel any big steps have been taken, or at least they haven't been revealed. Two new "features" I am confused about "Luck" and "Magic Battles" as a "choice" in one turn. Second bullet here: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/Illwinter/Dom3/2.htm

I would consider a big step to be something like having random events generated based on what is hapenning in the game. Another big step would be a highly improved battle organization system such as giving certain commands or supressing certain actions, and just more commands in general. I will say that national summons is one big step. Oh, and I just remembered the other big step I wanted: Non-magic-based recruitable units actually being useful. Oh yeah, and how about the ability to recruit seige vehicles? catapults, etc.

Now, I knew as soon as Dom3 was announced C'tis would be getting calvary units. I thought they would be lizardmen on the lizard-dood's back, but they are in chariot style. Good enough for me.

Oh yeah, the game cover looks like crap. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif And the in-game UI didn't change much (besides the extra information everywhere)

"Fifty different playable nations. Some of the new nations include Ermor, New Faith, based on the early Republic of Rome. Marverni, inspired by Gallic tribes. Kailasa, Rise of the Ape Kings, inspired from Indian and Hindu mythology. Jomon, Human Daimyos, born from ancient Japan."

Ok what the hell? Fifty? I thought there was a total of 21. And Ermor is not new!

I think that's it.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Well, if you put in a way like: "FEW more nations (looks like 3 times as much to me actually), FEW more spells (how do you know how many more spells there will be in game?), FEW more features/improvements (it's pretty long list there and I bet not everything is revealed)", I wouldn't be very excited about it either.

Where did you hear it's only 21? Didn't you read that there are 3 ERAS in game? This also explains new Ermor since K.O. somewhere said that there will be Ermor before it's fall (Broken Empire).

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Well... sth from me then.
I am quite a recent Dominions player... Started little moreover than 1 year ago, played since for about 6 months almost every night:) ... than just get bored with the game little bit - brutal truth.
So... we got Dom3... my - eversince I've stopped playing Dom2 - beautiful dream...

Hmm... I don't see the game, cannot play it, but that what I can see is little dissapointing for me. I expected more to be honest. I feel myself, I have been given only cosmetic changes, few new features - not enough! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Well, I know, tha game was very good, it is said that if sth is good - better not change it... Anyway my apetite was larger...

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Yeah I was expecting a bit more features aswell, like a dimplomacy option for singleplayer would be a decent addition, that way even the AI nations could form alliances and team up -> harder SP games. The Galciv 2 diplo system is excellent, its very hard to make an alliance on harder settings with an AI player, since so many things are affecting the relationships between the sides. [military, territorial, research power, gifts, how do you react on an AI - AI war -> which side do you support with destroying the other side's ships, etc. etc. its wonderful how it works.]
All this could be implented into Dominions 3, we got AIs, we got military, we got territories, we got research etc.
I think many was hoping for dimplomacy in Doms 3, its a shame that we wont have that..

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

I disagree with the so so sentiment.

I think the game offers a lot of new contents (nations, spells and units) and improvements (UI, micromanagement, modding).
What I have learnt from dominions I and II is that the developers care for the game and that they are very attentive to the fans.
I am very content with what dominions III has to offer. I can easily recite a long list of games that gave much less content in new installments or even deteriorated the game (HOMM-IV, MOO-III, AOW-II, Total annihilation kingdoms).
I for one am excited with dominions III.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

I'm of course excited over it but I do wonder what exactly will it be like in the end. What will the era system be like?`What's up with the "awakening"? Etc.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Wraithlord, more units/spells etc. is not a big improvement, those could be even added as an expansion, especially because the graphics is almost the same anyways.

The thing is that we wont have any real new content in Dominions 3.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

I think there is alot of new content. It looks like everything that was content in Dom2 has increased.

If you mean new features, I see quite abit of that also. A randommap generator is a biggie for one thing.

If you mean taking the game in new directions.. no I dont think so. But then, thats one of my big complaints about other games new versions. If its a new version then I want the same game but bigger and better. If its going in a whole new direction then give it a new name and start the version counter over at 1.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

I tried searching for your old posts, and came up with few things that I presume you'd think of as "real content":

-AI, many times, in many different ways, from more castles to more summons to less light units to better research to better battlefield tactics to diplomacy. We don't know what has been done, so we pretty much have to wait for the demo or for the pre-ordered version, or hope for random tidbits (which you probably wouldn't be satisfied with).
-Supercombatants. They spoil the SP game for you, it seems.
-Useless national units.

We'll have to wait and see. I imagine something will happen, as the developers themselves seem to like national units more than thugs and supercombatants.

However, these would also change the game in some way. It mightn't always be just for good.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

The role of a sequel, be it a game, movie, book, has always been a difficult one. If someone feels not enough has been changed the cry goes out that it's nothing but a glorified expansion pack. If someone feels that *too* much has changed, then it's not the game they fell in love with the first time and it might as well have been called something else.

Of course there is another factor at work with game sequels, and that many times players become invested in a game and when they hear of a sequel they essentially come up with their own design docs for what they hope to see. When some--or perhaps all--of what they hoped for aren't in the sequel, it's disappointing.

To me the key for a sequel then is keeping everything that was enjoyable about the first game, honing it, and then slathering more on top of it. Illwinter has been doing this. Likewise, they're a good team when it comes to listening to the fans. Everything that folks want won't end up in the game, but that's not to say they're not listening and perhaps some of what is wanted would be used at a later point.

-Scott

Oops...wrong reply to...this is meant for the general thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Yeah Gandalh this is what I meant. You are correct the random map generator is the only new "major" feature...but I cant see any other. More units, spells, nations...almost the same graphics..sounds like an expansion.

Anyways, if the AI will be good I will be happy to buy the game of course, I think we all want different things to be done in Doms 3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

How about at least saying "the only new major feature WE SEE SO FAR"? The game hasnt been laid out completely yet. And thats even if its far enough along to do such a feature list.

I dont want to sound like a fanboi but it sounds like you are being overly pessimistic when Illwinter doesnt deserve it. Unless you are just trying to goad them into dribbling you more info

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

I think this is a matter of taste. It is true that units and spells can be added in an expansion but usually such additions are relatively small. Another thing to consider is that so far Illwinter had been adding content to the game w/o "copy pasting" nations/units/spells. (I mean, take a look at AOW-SM, imo all the nations are clones with different names and images.) So adding quality content takes time and effort, which is why I can appreciate it although it's not a new feature.

Also, I think the unit res. is better and so are the battlefields and some of the spell effects.

It is a matter of taste in that, inevitably, there are always those fans who want more of the same as opposed to those that want a revolution. Its impossible to satisfy both factions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Wraithlord's post also reminded me:

Dominions II actually received quite a many improvements, which would have been enough for a small expansion pack for many other company, in the patches. I'm not even sure of all the goodies we got, but the whole modding system, Black Forest of Ulm, Golden Era of Arcoscephale, Oceania (with its shapechanging units) in a mod, probably some others. Was Return of the Raptors added in a patch, or was it in from the beginning? I think it was, but I'm not sure.

Oceania reminds me of another thing. Units can change shape when they get from under water to land - if new abilities are added for new races, this gives more options, and enables more strategies and tactics. This might force some of the tried and true strategies/tactics to adapt. And that, in turn, is fun. I think I'll like Dom3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

As far as new spells, Im not sure we can pass judgement on that yet. There might be new spells which are just the same code with new damage and a new graphic. Nice but possibly considered "expansion" stuff. And there might be some that obviously added a whole new dimension and needed added programming. Those would have to be considered added content I think.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Well here's the fact: Dominions 1 to Dominions 2 looked like a bigger step before it was complete than the step from Dominions 2 to Dominions 3. The key phrase here is "before it was complete." Agreed?

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

In terms of content it's going from 30 themes to 60, from 1080 unit types to 1500+, the unit resolution increased IIRC from 32 to 64 pixels, ~475 to 600 spells, etc. So there's quite a bit of new content.

Of course, since Dominions has never lacked content, it's the new features that are most exciting. I'm very interested in the AI -- building castles is great but nothing else has been specified. Things like the autotax feature (does it look at blood hunters as well as unrest?) and any other tools to help with the MM are welcome. The random maps could be good, although going into Lairloch's Realm and learning how a 13 death caster with Cloud of Death can just erase an army probably won't be there.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Holy freaking crap! I didn't know the number difference between spells and units. Now I'm excited. Screw this thread.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif You've always been my favourite enthusiast!

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Wow, that's an honor!

Actually I realize something. Because you guys didn't spend so much time on revolutionizing graphical aspects (or any others) you are able to put in so much more content instead. There is really going to be around 50 nations? Seriously? Well, I think Dominions 3 is in the right direction. A lot of what Dominions 3 is has never been done before. I'd buy Dominions 3 over spore any day.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

> There is really going to be around 50 nations?

Yes, but some are oldies remade. Niefelheim is more or less what it was before, but they got some skinshifters and a new Niefel Jarl Hero, Tjatse with the eagle cloak, abductor of Idun and the apples of longevity.

TC S&A has new sacred warriors of the five elements.

Other nations have more or less new unit setups. Ermor in the early age has less modern legionaries, augurs, pontifices and equites of the sacred shroud.

Some nations are entirely new such as Marverni, Agartha of three different ages, Sauromatia & Yomi/Shinuyama/Jomon.

All in all there are about seven nations wich dont resemble old ones or new ones (counting agartha as one), twelve or so nations with some resemblance to old or new nations (early ermor, agartha of other eras), and a lot of nations and old themes with some changes to units or balance (niefelheim).

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Sounds great... I'm sure most of us wouldn't mind if one or two nations were setup as extremely powerful compared with the rest. It would allow SP gamers to have a great challenge without making modifications and it would allow new MP gamers a chance to experience the game without getting squashed early.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Come on, people. I don't know exactly what Johan and Kristoffer have up their sleeves, but I can guarantee that they didn't spend the last couple of years making new units and spells. Even if the content is 75% the same, the game can be 200% better if the gameplay is streamlined, and that is what matters most.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

But does S&A have Chariot troopers? Please say the have.

And for some reason I thought that Agarta would be early Ulm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

It looks like I'm going to have the work cut out for me to produce a comprehensive Unit, equipment and Magic Site DB for Dom3. Might as well throw in spells too. And I'll be buggered if I'll be doing that with a spreadsheet. Right now the plan is that it'll be SQL database all the way, with the queries set up so that you can get useful lists out of it.

Never mind producing a Faerun map, and that'll be a headache in itself with all the different Eras, because they'll require different vesions. Well, at least the graphics are more or less ready, but the map will be less than 300 provinces for Dom3, since I've come to the conclusion that both the large and small Faerun maps currently in circulation are too fatally flawed in to many ways to make it worth fixing them.

Free time...what the hell is that?

Edi

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

I for one think Faerun map is one of the greates maps out there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Shouldn't be to hard to make one for each era as it should (ok I'm guessing a bit here) require you only to set starting locations for each. The rest can be the same for each era.

Not sure what you mean by fatally flawed - I think they are great (I like big one most http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif).

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Thanks for the praise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The big one is, all things considered, somewhat too big. The smaller one has some rather big design issues in some regions, and both of them need some toning down for some of the province guardians (the Earthmother in the Moonshaes is especially nasty).

I've been working on a new version with only 281 provinces (it really will not go any smaller without losing the thematic feel and even then I had to cut a couple of places I wanted to keep but could afford to remove), which should be more workable. When it's ready, that is, but I won't be making it public immediately. This one also won't feature all nations. Mictlan has been cut, and so will Ermor, in all probability. It just doesn't fit too well on the map.

The problem with different versions for different eras isn't in the picture file, it'll be fixing the map files to reflect each era, which is more work than appears at first glance. And I need a working Unit DB and Site DB to really make it good.

I've still got a dream of getting to do a full Toril (Faerun & Kara-Tur) map someday, but that's another story...

Edi

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

It was only too big for Dom 2 because of the low unit limit and the scouting bug.
But remember Illwinter said the maximum number of provinces for Dom3 will be 1500 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
So this means that the unit limit is hopefully not an issue anymore neither http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
So you could also make a 500 province Faerun map for Dom3 imho http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
Iirc there are 20 Nations for Dom3, so 500:20 would be 25 provinces for each nation, exactly right for an epic MP game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Already looking forward to your Dom3 Faerun Maps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

And you know that I will be making those 1500 province maps available. (not real pretty, but available). My old classifications were...

TINY less than 5 each, or less than 85 total provinces. Best done as 45 land and 8 water.

SMALL 5 each, or 85 total provinces. Best done as 75 land and 10 water.

MEDIUM 10 each, or 170 total provinces. Best done as 150 land and 20 water.

LARGE 15 each, or 255 total provinces. Best done as 225 land and 30 water.

HUGE 20 each, or 340 total provinces. Best done as 300 land and 40 water.

EPIC 25 or more each, maybe to the maximum 500 total provinces. Something like 450 land and 50 water.


CHAOS a run of completely randomized maps which might provide something interesting by accident.

I guess I will have to add one for Xtreme. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
And new groupings to include the Dom3 map generator if it will work for it.
Hmmmm with added nations I will have to redo the others abit also in order to match the "xx each player for xxx total provinces".

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

I 100% agree. If the province limit is 1500 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif (ouch, thats extreme allright) then unit limit most definitely shouldn't be a problem anymore. Heck on 1500 province map you would reach limit just by placing indies on the map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I think currently Large Faerun map will fall somewhere in the middle sized maps once Dom 3 is out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Come to think of it, 1500 provinces is a dream come true for Gandalf who's notorious in his liking of HUGE maps. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
I bet he will find a way to play with ALL nations on it too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

I'm also very fond of HUGE maps... in fact many gamers enjoy the HUGE maps. I recall Gandalf reporting the highest downloads from his site were for the largest maps.

I'm wondering what's new in the editor too.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

heehee. Its like a giant cake. I will HAVE to make one, even if it turns out to be something I wouldnt want to do often.

1500 provinces? I wonder if the max map size is expanded also. Well even at 2000x2000 that might be playable if its not too cluttered. I think I can get DomMap to generate one that big just to see how playable it looks.

ALL of the nations? Do we know what that is yet? We know that they added a water nation (Oceania). Ive heard 20 kicked around. And each one has 3 eras? If they can all play at once that would be 60 nations? That would be.. umm...
echo "1500/60" | bc
25 provinces each. About right for a good game. Even if you cant play 60 humans maybe you could do the standard signup of the 20 nations and add the other 2 eras in as AI's.
MUHAHAHAHAHAHA
Im ready. Lets go.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

That brings up a good question. Will you be able to play nations from different eras against each other? I don't see why not, but...?

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Yeah if it is not enabled currently please enable it as a feature for Dom3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
Or rather to repeat myself again: Do not hardcode the nation limit at all. There will soon surely be some great nation mods, so it would be cool if there are 40 new nation mods if we could then play with 100 nations. 1500:100 is still 15 provinces per player http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
Hey, if every nation could be used unlimited often we could even play a 1500 province game with 1500 players/ais.
That would be a cool weird game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

I really see no reason why a game like 20 Ctis vs. 20 Pythium players e.g. would not be cool sometimes too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Carefull, you are starting to sound like Gandalf. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Also hopefully the developers will make a blank nation slot available for modders.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Since there seems to be this much enthusiasm for very large Faerun maps, I'll see to it that you'll also get one for Dom3. The newest one, at 283 provinces seems to be working beautifully, so it's also going to end up available for Dom3.

And I'll really have to get to work on that full Toril one, based off of the Trail Maps. It's a shame they never did make a trail map for Maztica, or we'd really get all three continents. Of course, I'll probably run afoul of the pixel size limit since the trail maps at full spread cover several square meters. Something like 2.1x4 meters or thereabouts, so I don't want to even contemplate how big of a download that would be. The bastardly thing is that you can't really reduce the image significantly enough to matter, because that'd make everything too small.

Well, perhaps a Faerun map and a Kara-Tur map then...

Edi

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Doesn't matter that much. I guess the majority of the community has at least DSL and i personally would find it worth enough even to download for 2-3 hours the map. So don't be too afraid if the map might be 300,500 or even 1000 mb large. At least me (and probably a few other notorious epic map lovers like Gandalf) will download this map with joy no matter how big it is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Actually, I love large maps to (I played Large Faerun 'till I drop http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif). Don't worry about size of those maps. Like Boron said, they are well worth the download and lots of people have fast enough connection not to care.

Personally, I'd love if you could make some 1000 provinces big map with Faerun thematics for Dominions 3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'd wait 'till Dominions 3 is out before populating it with independents, nations and sites as noone knows what will be new (500 more units alone is a lot) and it would be a shame not to include it in such map (asuming you actually make something THAT big.

I know I'd play it.
I know Gandalf would play it too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

And fill it with monsters. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I know its jumping the gun (shouldnt really happen till you are bored with playing the game normally in a couple of years) but I cant wait to see what some of my routines such as "Poke in the Eye" does with the new monster base. All those new units and monsters and summons and gods scattered all over the indept provinces for you to try in battle.
It definetly makes a whole new game out of it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I would like to make a request to the first few who rush the map-making thing. If its not wraparound then could you consider squeezing abit of border-space to add a keypress chart? I know we dont have one yet but if you are pre-working it to try and be the first one to have one out then maybe you could put the space in and be ready to fill it at the last minute.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Uh... I don't have enough RAM... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I don't play immense maps, but for those who do, keeping it under 200 MB is wise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

I have 2gb of ram. Can you please make a 4000 province map? kthx.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

The largest map I have tried is 9000x9000 pixels (about 300 Mb) and that works just fine. Province wise there is a limit of 1500 provinces, but I don't see why anyone should want to play on a map larger than that.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

Heehee, that statement sounds familiar. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But I guess at some point there has to be a ceiling. We do want the game to run well. How many nations? Well even if its 30 then 1500/30= 50 provinces each before having to go to war. OK, I can play with that.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

The huge maps is where we also see the heroic abilities as being more valuable since they continue to increase as time passes in the game.
In small maps heroic abilities don't do much unless it's fear or awe.

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

heheh, you know I woudln't want more than 1500 province. twas just a joke!

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

But you know I would.
Whatever limits they set, I will play them and make them available on my site (and want more). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

The obvious reason would be to say that Dom3 has a major fault (such as not being able to support *large* maps) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Feeling a bit ... so so / All of my thoughts
 

LOL yeah, gotta leave something for the gripers to chew about.