Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Okay, first off let me just say that Dom 2 was an awe-inspiring game, and I will be purchasing Dom 3.

But I really, really don't see why more is not done for single-player customers. The hard work has been done - the game is made - surely stringing together some modded maps for a campaign would not be a ridiculous amount of effort?

Alternatively, allow for players to create their own campaign, or extend/provide hints for the AI. Something so that longevity of the single-player game can be improved. Dom 3 does not need to be a niche game - it is a rich, interesting game which could be enjoyed by a lot of players if they could play lesiurely games at their level.

But by making single-player an afterthought, many inferior games will still be more attractive to those players who can't be bothered with multiplayer. That's my take anyway, for what it's worth - because for me, single-player in Dom 2 was synonymous with multiplayer strat testing.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Since most of us havent seen Dom3 I guess we will have to wait and see if any of that is true. All we know is that Dom2 was created concentrating on the multiplayer thing. Even then they were nice enough to add many single-player things after we asked for them.

Personally I think that many of the things we asked for in Dom2 required too much rewrite of the code to NOT be a whole new game. Now lets see if Dom3 put those in

And we did have some campaings. Did you look at the Dom2Minions site?

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Well, campaign would be odd since thematicaly you ascend to godhood every time you vanguish all of your enemies on a map...

Of course this could be changed for campaign but uhhh, what would you do there? Vanguish enemies one map after another?

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Actually, every game of Dominions is a whole campaign.

One should not get fooled by the fact that there are single commanders and heros - Dominions happens at a much more strategic level than Wesnoth or Age of Wonders or whatnot.

And concerning the replay value: I'm not sure if a campaign with a fixed order of scenarios really adds replay value. You would only get to play the same battles again if you start anew, wouldn't you?

Illwinter is working on making the AI more challenging, as far as I understood, including but not limited to building castles and more heavy national troops.

If we'll get random opponents (what shouldn't be too hard to do) on random maps, that would add much more replay-value then a set of canned scenarios, at least for me.

edit: forgot to mention the random maps

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

The scenarios I had for Dom2 included

"a Poke in the Eye"
This might be the world BEFORE you chocse to be a god. Every province on the map has new commanders thrown in so there is a chance of randomly chosen pretenders in every province trying to lead the independents there to become a new nation.
(rating: difficult)

"WE vs THEM"
A harder game (hopefully) for those wanting smarter AI's. In the lower-left corner of this map there is the Deadly Atlantis Rlyeh Ermor alliance. It is Ermor sandwiched between Atantis and R'lyeh. DARE is all allied against you which means they will ignore each other and concentrate on everyone else. To survive I highly recommend co-operation with other nations. (Ermor, Rlyeh, and Atlantis cannot be chosen and I would advise NOT adding any other AI's either)

"the Independents Unite"
The Independents have begun to form their own nation WITHOUT a Pretender! They have a headstart on you and have been joined by many angry deserters from other nations so you had better get busy. Their leaderless nation must not spread further! (Man cannot be chosen)

available at www.Dom2Minions.com

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

It doesn't support some of the neat features found in HoMM and etc., though, like events, triggers, and pre-scripted messages. So it's only a campaign in the questionable way that MoM or Civ are campaigns.

Some possible events that would allow a more multi-map-campaign-like feel might be the sudden appearance of a new nation, or a glacier melting, which suddenly connects two provinces through an otherwise impassable mountain range.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

That's exactly my feeling as well.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

I suggested several times the editors from Heroes_3 and AgeofWonders:SM be used as blueprints for the editor in Dominions_3. Let's take a moment and pray. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
If Events have been added into the game, events like we see in Heroes_3 and AgeofWonders:SM... then map makers could effectively make a campaign on a single map.

A campaign using multiple maps means transitioning data such as research, gold, gems, and possibly some troops with items between maps which I doubt we'll see. It certainly sounds nice... especially with a multiplayer campaign using multiple maps! Thus after a specific day research, gold, gems, and possibly some troops with items are moved for all players to the next map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
I doubt we'll see this feature... but it sure sounds nice.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Dominions maps already are too random for anything but totally pre-scripted maps to be feasible. If e.g. in first map you play early Ermor and become an empire, in the next game you have to reach a harbour-city and cross a sea to another land to escape the fall and cataclysm with small force of legionaires and no castle or pretender, the following, third map couldn't have Ermor in it. If Pythium is to destroy Ermor in the fourth, final, map/scenario, the possibility of Ermor being destroyed in the third map should be nullified. And Ermor can't just be made too strong to attack, because that would allow it to overpower everything.

Effectively, you can't have the nations own the same provinces in multiple games, so you'd have to either kill all existing nations in every scenario, or accept that something will change and limit the possibility of that as much as possible. However, very few scenarios have been made for DomII. It'd be nice to see some, but I doubt Illwinter will add any new features when the existing ones haven't been used that much. The ones I can remember are pre-set maps like Faerun that try to describe a pre-existing world, or those that try to make the AI more challenging.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Hmmm I love a challenge.
OK lets see.... A package which includes 3 minorly edited maps and a campaign.exe to oversee things. It could be the same map with time changes (forest and swamp gives way into farmlands and plains?) or it could be a big map where sections of it are not playable (no neighbor commands) making 3 different sections of the same map only playable for that each ofthe 3 games.

Game 1:
Ermor (early age) is pitted against a bunch of AIs who are preset to give a fairly hard challenge. The Victory Points are turned on and the game is run with a scoredump switch. Ermor must do whatever it is the storyline says. Something that works in well with the changes they go thru to become mid age. Finding and rescuing the mages that teach them the advancements blah blah blah. Major victory points on that province.

The campaign.exe (hmm I could write this in BASIC Im pretty sure) is what you click on when you feel you have beaten game1. It examines the last scores.html that the game spit out to verify that you did accomplish the mission. It writes minor changes to the game 2 map (hmmm a mod file could be included in all this also but so far Im not coming up with a reason to).

Game 2:
along the same lines with the same god being used to play a game against the AIs on a harder setting but the game is now all Era 2 (mid age) nations. Ermor has advanced into the changes. Same basic thing, stay alive and accomplish whatever it is that turns Ermor mid-age into Ermor late-age (is that where all the undead show up?). Same god, go for the victory points. Some well designed province or province area where you select the native population, the magic sites, the guardian armies, all around the storyline theme. When you get them the game will quit declaring you the winner.

Game 3:
you again run the campaign.exe which finds the scores.html and verifies that you won (yes this can be cheated but who cares?). It modifies the .map file for game three. This time you are playing for all the marbles. All of the AI are on maximum setting and allied against you. No victory points its just a kill everyone else type of game.

Variants:
this sounds kinda hard to get thru. Maybe the campaign.exe could "see" who you defeated in each game and not include them in the next one. And each game could start everyone with a few more starting provinces. Of course for "reality" sake the maps would be best if all variables were removed such as locking in the populaton of province and what sites are there but thats only if the maps are designed to play the same area each time.

Also the last game might not be beatable if its all max AI allied against you (at least lets hope thats as hard as it sounds). But in the 2nd and 3rd games you could grant Ermor extra troops, some starting equipment, pre-researched spells.

If you "create" the god for the campaign (not unheard of in such things) then you could even advance them. Add particular magics and abilities. Hmmm I can even see where some of the gods might be advanced in other ways. If I did a Pangaea version I might have the Druid as game 1 pretender, and in game 2 it could be the green dragon which is the same druid with a form-change ability. For the Ermor one the pretender might start with earth and nature magics and gain starting magic in death and blood as the nation progresses thru its ages.

MAN my brain really cooks in the early hours doesnt it?
Gandalf Parker

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

I'm thinking mods could work as a sort of scripted events, since the only other way around is to edit the game files themselves (not straightforward, and with unwanted side-effects).

So, you could ask the player to rerun the executable on turn 30, and check for the current state of the game. If your nation already owns a bunch of provinces and has a high income, life could become harder for you (say, troops suddenly become more expensive, or one troop cannot be recruited anymore, mages get weaker, etc). On the other hand, if you are doing poorly, you could find yourself with some support, perhaps from poor Man that has bitten the dust already.

It could also work the other way around, boosting AI nations as needed, again through the same "check the score dump" mechanism. You might even "transform" a nation that way, by replacing all its units, spells, and whatnot through a mod... well, except things like "no Dominion spread" or auto-summons.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Actually, there should be more things that can be changed [via mods] in Dom3. I think Mictlan's restricted dominion-spreading and Ulm's extra-resources in fortresses were mentioned, but I'm not sure.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

A game can be started with a preexex or postexec switch. A postexec bat file could run the checker program and swap in an appropriate mod. Id have to think abit on how that would work best but it could be done.

In fact, if you turn logging on and send it to a text file you could even look for references such as the players nation hitting a particular stage in the game. A research level or certain spells being cast or taking a certain province. I wonder how search results are recorded. Whether a certain site being found in a certain province could be a trigger

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Just because Ermor is destroyed in the first of four maps doesn't mean he can't exist in the next maps. You remove Ermor from one realm doesn't mean he's wiped off the entire world or galaxy. If Ermor does stay alive some of his commanders should carry over same as yours if you stay alive. Also even if your pretender dies and all your provinces are lost for one realm doesn't remove your existence and control from other maps or parts of the world.

I agree I doubt we'll see any of these new features, but they sure sound nice.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Ive seen other games where the next level of the campaign started with something like "the vanquished god has retreated to a far land only to come back stronger and angrier". That could handle it (sloppily but oh well)

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Please, don't insult the customer

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Well with a bit of creativity Im sure we could do better. Actually, in Dominions its abit more workable since a god CAN come back if there is some far province still worshipping them.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Exactly... it will be interesting to see how the editor has been improved.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

I personally think that the ability to read .trn files would be best. Then the fans could make a better AI if they really wanted to (I would!). Illwinter needn't provide a decoding program, just say what compression programs it uses, and what its formatting is. The fans can do the rest. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

I see that as pro and con. The biggest problem being that most of the pros are on the side of solo play and most of the cons on the side of multi play

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

I still play Dominions 2. singleplayer on my laptop when I am on my way to somewhere. I really enjoy it. Well yes the AI could be better, but some things will be fixed in Dominions 3. I think the fans could do AI fixes if Illwinter could support it somehow...well not me, I don't know programming, but some people surely could help to the devs.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

If you know the trn and 2h formats, you could write an AI and also write a cheat-detector http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Along with a bot player and a cheat maker http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Its a never ending battle that Ive seen happen in other games.

That doesnt mean that Im against the idea. Its still up to the developers. Im just pointing out that there are reasons for them to decide either direction.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

A bot player IS the AI.

As I said in another post, people seem to be able to cheat now without the formats being officially documented. I agree it makes cheating easier, but also makes it easier to detect cheating, if you are worried about that.

But yeah, I guess its just a rehash of all the arguments about open standards vs security by obfuscation.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

What if the game had two formats? I know it would be harder on the developers, but it would solve the problems relatively simply.
The player merely specifies whether it is a single player game (which would use a non-encrypted format, allowing for external AI's) or a multiplayer game (which uses the normal, encrypted format).

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Two formats might be interesting.

The thing about Bots being AIs is dependent on how they are used. If its recognized by everyone as an AI players thats fine. If its used as a false human player to help one person then its not. Believe me, every online world for decades has had a problem with that distinction

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

Hmm, replied before but it mustn't have been processed.

The fact that a pretender ascends after a game is *not* an issue. The ascension is only implicit, after all. Is it really not possible to vanquish enemy pretenders one at a time? eg. after defeating on pretender, you may receive the information that on a distant shore, the followers of X are growing in number..

On AI, I think if someone writes a bot that is a threat to human players, then that would be terrific. I think it's fairly obvious that such a bot would be more of a benefit to the game than a negative. Think about it: there is no advantage in running a bot over a period of weeks in order to win a Dominions game. No money-making opportunities, no immediate visual feedback (eg. headshots), no special status etc. But having a bot that could provide a challenging game for skilled players would be a really good selling point.

Re: Dom 3 Single-player - I don\'t get it..
 

That hasnt stopped people from cheating. With a bot I could create 2 more players per game and have them feed me money and gems. That could be done anyway but with a bot its easier. Bots are commonly used for cheating in games.

BUT I do agree that it would be great if we could have bot AI's. Ive requested from the beginning the ability to script clients (not thru open trn files though, in fact I wish the game had more encryption). With Dom1 and Dom2 the attention was obviously on MP over SP. With Dom3 we will have to wait and see how much additional ability we have to improve solo play